Author Topic: Grafting roots to aid with air layering  (Read 1879 times)

Plantinyum

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Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« on: April 13, 2022, 02:11:13 AM »
So this is complicated, but for plants that are known to root via airlayering, but are slow or hard to do so like my carambolla, i was thinking of trying to graft a few roots on the stem and leave the joining part away from humidity and water. Anyone tried this?  I'd like to hear some feedback on this ' thanks !!

fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2022, 12:44:44 AM »
Instead of doing a regular airlayer on my longan tree,  I decided to graft a seedling rootstock to the branch so it can have a taproot. I think that's similar to what you're talking about?



sc4001992

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2022, 05:40:16 AM »
Fruit4me, that should work well. I plan to do similar method for my rare longan. Once the graft union heals then I will cut off the branch of the rare variety from it's rootstock so I will still have the original plant as well.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 06:48:06 AM by sc4001992 »

JakeFruit

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2022, 08:24:47 AM »
I grafted the root system from a seedling mango (attempted two, one took) onto an air-layer a few seasons ago.


It seemed to work well, the root development from the grafted rootstock in such a short time was really impressive (I left the air-layer on for a month too long, should have potted it before it became so rootbound). Unfortunately, I made the assumption it was good to go and didn't pay extra attention to it the next season. It came from the main branch of a vigorous tree and I left all the top leaves on, I should have removed most of them. The tree wanted to grow faster than the root system could sustain, by the time I saw the issue and removed most leaves, it was too weak and Powdery Mildew thrashed several cycles of new leaf attempts it made. It died midsummer. Sad ending, but I learned from it.

I'm going to try again this season, but I'm choosing a smaller branch and keeping a closer eye on things.

fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2022, 12:42:45 PM »
JakeFruit
Did you remove a ring of bark below the grafted branch? I'm curious if it the graft will heal faster that way, plus for it to callous to form roots later when branch is removed.

JakeFruit

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2022, 09:19:58 AM »
I did ring it again below the bottom of the container holding the coco coir to prevent new branches from pushing inside the container. The tree will respond as though the branch has been cut/trimmed at the bottom-most girdle, new branch shoots will begin to form a few weeks after the initial cut, provided you completely stripped the cambium and the ring removed was wide enough to prevent healing-over the exposed wood.

From my experience with this technique, if your root system graft(s) takes, it won't push too many new roots (even with growth hormone). I had a small few new roots, but the majority of root development was in the root graft. Also, I think it's important to take the root graft below the collar of the donor seedling; if it's not low enough, it'll try to push its own new growth.

Plantinyum

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2022, 03:47:31 PM »
Fruit4me, yes that is kinda what i am talking about. But i rather was thinking about, when airlayering with all the procedures involved, to just add a few roots/ young rootstocks as a start to the root formation on the air layer. I guess it really isnt that different though and may be better to just graft a few rootstocks with strong roots and not just roots.

I did ring it again below the bottom of the container holding the coco coir to prevent new branches from pushing inside the container. The tree will respond as though the branch has been cut/trimmed at the bottom-most girdle, new branch shoots will begin to form a few weeks after the initial cut, provided you completely stripped the cambium and the ring removed was wide enough to prevent healing-over the exposed wood.

From my experience with this technique, if your root system graft(s) takes, it won't push too many new roots (even with growth hormone). I had a small few new roots, but the majority of root development was in the root graft. Also, I think it's important to take the root graft below the collar of the donor seedling; if it's not low enough, it'll try to push its own new growth.

Jake fruit , i like what u did with the mango! When u say that the plant did not try to make some roots on its own, excluding the grafted roots, i think this may be fixed by grafting two or as much as possible rootstocks , i',d imagine one can get a huje branch to root this way, reminds me of aproach grafting....


I will practice the root grafting this year on some local trees that i want to air layer for bonsai. I also have some guavas and avocado for layering, but those i think are too thin to do such practices on...

JakeFruit

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2022, 09:12:28 AM »
I attempted 3 root grafts on the branch pictured, only one took. It was awhile ago, but I remember being slightly surprised at the lack of new root development from the branch layer; there were 3-4 minor roots coming from the branch itself, at best.  I'd guess as soon as the branch detects it has some functional roots, energy and development are primarily focused on wherever those are. If I had the time, I'd try starting a few air-layer attempts that I let go for several weeks/months before I attach any root grafts. If the branch had the beginnings of functional roots before the root grafts, maybe it would be different

I'll still attempt 2-4 root grafts on the next air-layer, but I'm going to select a smaller branch and/or a less-vigorous variety. I'll remove most leaves when I separate the air-layer next time and limit new branch/leaf starts, too. Grafting mangoes is definitely easier/more reliable, but I'm curious to see how an air-layered mango develops.

Plantinyum

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2022, 10:48:05 AM »
I attempted 3 root grafts on the branch pictured, only one took. It was awhile ago, but I remember being slightly surprised at the lack of new root development from the branch layer; there were 3-4 minor roots coming from the branch itself, at best.  I'd guess as soon as the branch detects it has some functional roots, energy and development are primarily focused on wherever those are. If I had the time, I'd try starting a few air-layer attempts that I let go for several weeks/months before I attach any root grafts. If the branch had the beginnings of functional roots before the root grafts, maybe it would be different

I'll still attempt 2-4 root grafts on the next air-layer, but I'm going to select a smaller branch and/or a less-vigorous variety. I'll remove most leaves when I separate the air-layer next time and limit new branch/leaf starts, too. Grafting mangoes is definitely easier/more reliable, but I'm curious to see how an air-layered mango develops.
i guess mango would do well from airlayer, ive seen pics of people layering huge stumps in the tropics....wish you luck with the experiments and if u feel like it, post some updates in the future.

sapote

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2022, 05:47:09 PM »
Instead of doing a regular airlayer on my longan tree,  I decided to graft a seedling rootstock to the branch so it can have a taproot. I think that's similar to what you're talking about?


I don't understand this logic. If the branch is grafted on the rootstock and all good, then why the need to have a bunch of hairs (you called roots) in mid air?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 09:41:13 PM by sapote »

sapote

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2022, 05:48:49 PM »
So this is complicated, but for plants that are known to root via airlayering, but are slow or hard to do so like my carambolla, i was thinking of trying to graft a few roots on the stem and leave the joining part away from humidity and water. Anyone tried this?  I'd like to hear some feedback on this ' thanks !!

this sounds like hair grafting for people with bald heads -- must costs a fortune.

fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2022, 12:49:59 AM »
Instead of doing a regular airlayer on my longan tree,  I decided to graft a seedling rootstock to the branch so it can have a taproot. I think that's similar to what you're talking about?


I don't understand this logic. If the brand is grafted on the rootstock and all good, then why the need to have a bunch of hairs (you called roots) in mid air?
It's basically approach grafting  with  a seedling.  When the union heals, will cut off the branch and use the seedling as the rootstock to support the branch.
I was planning to remove a ring of bark on the branch to induce roots after the graft takes. So it can have two different root systems. 




sapote

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2022, 09:55:15 PM »
It's basically approach grafting  with  a seedling.  When the union heals, will cut off the branch and use the seedling as the rootstock to support the branch.
I was planning to remove a ring of bark on the branch to induce roots after the graft takes. So it can have two different root systems.

I must be a dumb a** as I still don't get this. Let's assume the seedling is S and the graft is G (you want to eat G fruits). So after the graft took and you cut off G below the union. Is the air-layering on the G or on the S and above or below the union?

So you ended up with a root stock S with the G grafted on it, and also the airlayer root ball 3 ft from ground, then what to do with the roots?

fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2022, 12:17:20 AM »
Here's a video to show the end results of what im trying to achieve.  My only difference in technique is I haven't remove the ring of bark yet. I will do that later when my graft heals. The ring of bark will be made at the same level where the seedling rootstock starts to grow roots. So both root systems will be at the same level.  In the video, his root graft fails and the airlayer takes. The goal is to have lateral roots from the airlayer and tap roots from the seedling.
https://youtu.be/03ziZuT-TRU
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 12:26:52 AM by fruit4me »

Plantinyum

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2022, 01:50:02 AM »
It's basically approach grafting  with  a seedling.  When the union heals, will cut off the branch and use the seedling as the rootstock to support the branch.
I was planning to remove a ring of bark on the branch to induce roots after the graft takes. So it can have two different root systems.

I must be a dumb a** as I still don't get this. Let's assume the seedling is S and the graft is G (you want to eat G fruits). So after the graft took and you cut off G below the union. Is the air-layering on the G or on the S and above or below the union?

So you ended up with a root stock S with the G grafted on it, and also the airlayer root ball 3 ft from ground, then what to do with the roots?
as i understand it the layer and the grafted roots are all at the same place, the seedling to be grafted does not have a long stem, u just use a portion of the rootstocks trunk, right above the roots, its like grafting a root to a portion that will sprout roots anyway. The goal is to have a plant with stronger roots, my initial q was this to be used for plants that are difficult but do produce roots from airlayer, just to fasten the process.
Someone else staited above that when using a whole seedling root sisted, that way u get to have a taproot on a layer that would otherwise have just feeder roots, tap root leads to stronger root system and more vigorous tree .

Jaboticaba45

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2022, 08:22:16 AM »
I never knew you could graft roots
Heres an interesting article I found on it.
https://www.growables.org/information/RootGraftingArchivesAustralia.htm

JakeFruit

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2022, 08:46:57 AM »
Here's a video to show the end results of what im trying to achieve.  My only difference in technique is I haven't remove the ring of bark yet. I will do that later when my graft heals. The ring of bark will be made at the same level where the seedling rootstock starts to grow roots. So both root systems will be at the same level.  In the video, his root graft fails and the airlayer takes. The goal is to have lateral roots from the airlayer and tap roots from the seedling.
https://youtu.be/03ziZuT-TRU
That's pretty much what I did, except I used multiple root grafts. The thing about these videos (there are several on the same/similar techniques) is they never show the plant a year or two later. Getting the graft to take is an achievement, but keeping it alive and getting it to thrive is the real challenge. Take the analogy you often hear about the root system of a tree basically being as big/expansive as the tree you see above ground; the roots you see in these videos do not come close to matching the size of the branch/foliage. it's going to be a struggle for those roots to support growth. Once you separate the branch from the tree, it's all on that tiny root system. The root system he attaches in the video comes from a much smaller seedling and he seems to do nothing to the branch to reduce the pressure on the seedling root system. I'd bet a substantial sum it didn't make it through the next season, not without a good deal of extra care and attention.

It's a fun technique, but don't choose a big (especially fruiting) branch. It's a drag watching it slowly die...

sc4001992

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2022, 09:09:32 AM »
Jaboticaba45, I read for persimmon scion grafting this method works well. Just get a few good roots from a larger tree and use it as rootstock to graft a good variety you want to propagate.

fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2022, 12:38:28 PM »
Instead of doing a regular airlayer on my longan tree,  I decided to graft a seedling rootstock to the branch so it can have a taproot.


Update on my root graft. It's been almost a month. I removed  the soil to check the seedling roots. So far I see some white bumps on the roots which means the graft is healing. Now I'm going  to remove a ring of bark on the branch and wrap them all together.


Closeup on the seedling roots


fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2022, 12:54:12 PM »
Here's how it looks like wrapped




Should get a really strong  airlayer.

sc4001992

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2022, 03:06:05 PM »
That seems to be working well, good idea.

Plantinyum

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2022, 02:06:39 AM »
Here's a video to show the end results of what im trying to achieve.  My only difference in technique is I haven't remove the ring of bark yet. I will do that later when my graft heals. The ring of bark will be made at the same level where the seedling rootstock starts to grow roots. So both root systems will be at the same level.  In the video, his root graft fails and the airlayer takes. The goal is to have lateral roots from the airlayer and tap roots from the seedling.
https://youtu.be/03ziZuT-TRU
That's pretty much what I did, except I used multiple root grafts. The thing about these videos (there are several on the same/similar techniques) is they never show the plant a year or two later. Getting the graft to take is an achievement, but keeping it alive and getting it to thrive is the real challenge. Take the analogy you often hear about the root system of a tree basically being as big/expansive as the tree you see above ground; the roots you see in these videos do not come close to matching the size of the branch/foliage. it's going to be a struggle for those roots to support growth. Once you separate the branch from the tree, it's all on that tiny root system. The root system he attaches in the video comes from a much smaller seedling and he seems to do nothing to the branch to reduce the pressure on the seedling root system. I'd bet a substantial sum it didn't make it through the next season, not without a good deal of extra care and attention.

It's a fun technique, but don't choose a big (especially fruiting) branch. It's a drag watching it slowly die...

This can be fixed by pruning the top part of the layer to a smaller proportions, u dont need to keep all of the top ....


Quote from: fruit4me
link=topic=47089.msg460375#msg460375 date=1652374452
Here's how it looks like wrapped




Should get a really strong  airlayer.
looks great, keep us posted.
I havent had the time to try the method still, however i have ro make sore airlayers ofsome trees in a forest so will try this, will uproot seedlings and graft theyr whole root systems.
However there may be problems since i will need just the roots and they will be very close to the wet part with the moss ball, dunno if it will work. Airlayers for bonsai, so i cant leave the grating place further up as i would with a regular plant.

fruit4me

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2022, 10:58:26 PM »
Instead of doing a regular airlayer on my longan tree,  I decided to graft a seedling rootstock to the branch so it can have a taproot.


Update on my root graft. It's been almost a month. I removed  the soil to check the seedling roots. So far I see some white bumps on the roots which means the graft is healing. Now I'm going  to remove a ring of bark on the branch and wrap them all together.


Closeup on the seedling roots


New update on Sakip longan airlayer/root graft
Ready to harvest.  Will post in buy/sell section soon











sc4001992

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2022, 01:53:37 AM »
Wow, nice job, very impressive.

Plantinyum

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Re: Grafting roots to aid with air layering
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2022, 04:27:49 AM »
Nice technique fruit4me !  I didnt got to do this myself, probably next year i will have more time to experriment on this. I wanted to try the root grafting on some wild maples along with airlayering, but due to the height of the branches i did it on 15 m+ i didnt want to spent much more time up there, did only the airlayers, the birds fucked them up good ,ripped the nylon so this went like that.....