Author Topic: Tropical Grapes  (Read 1043 times)

1rainman

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Tropical Grapes
« on: July 13, 2022, 12:40:44 PM »
I have really impressive rare tropical grapes derived from Dunstan and Zehnder.

I'm rooting some grapes and maybe sell some seedlings I have. I might wait until later in the year to sell them so it's not a big deal. Shipping is going to stress them. I will knock as much dirt off as possible and wrap the roots in a wet paper towel and if they are really big, cut them back before shipping.

z86 (a complex hybrid crossed with cabranet sauvignon) x Taris Burgundy:

Originally started with about 20 seeds two years ago. I have two selections that survived in south Florida. One selection was amazing. It grows extremely fast like a weed, and rare is that it grows in all directions (including vertically) so would be good for training (most hybrids grow straight up and try to reach for the highest tree top- this one eventually grew up but also grows side ways). Down side is thin canes which seem to come from shuttleworthii (long thin canes). But it grows so fast you can train it whatever way you want.

Seems to resist all diseases except rust and very light amount of black rot. Has a lot of rust here in coastal south florida which I spray for, though central florida, north florida and all points north shouldn't have any rust issues. Pierce tolerance I can't rate. It usually does not pass on well in hybrids so pierce tolerance could be moderate to high. Both parents have high pierce tolerance.

Berries: it's only two years old and seems to take three years to get berries no matter how big the plant is. This one didn't go dormant for me last year in Florida, despite temperatures in the upper 30s. It just kept growing. It grows when its 100 degrees out. It grows when its 40 degrees out. As long as it has water and nutrients it grows like a weed.

Based on the parents, and sister vine the berries should be really good for fresh eating or wine. Though the sister vine the sugar and acidity is a bit low for wine you can always add sugar and make adjustments to it.

It is more disease resistant than the parent "Taris Burgundy" which everyone brags about being one of the best vines for Florida. Taris did ok for me. It was not nearly as vigorous or resilient as this vine, and it had slight anthracnose and would have had rust too. But it struggled for me and then a dog chewed some of its leaves off and it died on me. Almost every grape variety I tried in south florida died on me. I got these seeds from someone.

Most of the seedlings I got from this cross, some grew fast but died from anthracnose. Some were resistant to anthracnose but weren't growing and didn't seem to like the heat and humidity. This was the one seedling that had the right combination of traits and took off. I had several that survived but weren't growing, all of them croaked except one. It remained a little baby the whole first year. Then this second year it went dormant (the one I'm selling didn't go dormant), then came back in the spring and is growing pretty well this year. But its not big enough for me to get babies off of it easily.

It seem to root easily. I bury a part of a vine in dirt (while its still connected to the mother plant) and it roots within a month or two and then starts growing like crazy and I cut it off from the mother and have a new vine. Some varieties I have did not root for me when I did this, but this one seems to root easily. It probably would root well from cuttings.

I have two of these I rooted. I can easily make more because it will just keep growing new shoots I can root. Though it does take some disease damage, probably better than anything else you are going to get.

Despite all the rumors and stories Tari's Burgundy does not appear to be a muscadine cross. It seems to be half shuttleworthii (native to south florida with good tasting grapes) and half vinifera. z86 is about 6% muscadine, 85% or so vinifera and the rest mostly aestavalis.

So this cross is about 25% shuttleworthii, 3% muscadine, and 6% or so aestavalis. Though z86 tastes like a vinifera, and the fruit doesn't have any resemblance to muscadine, so the native fruit qualities are mostly bred out.

z86 x D370 (dunstan 370):

This one is three years old and I got berries. Good non slip skin green table grapes (with a slight blush to them so greenish). Tastes about like a store grape. Leaves and plant resemble aestavalis. Resists all diseases. Some very light amount of rust and black rot. Also roots without a problem.

I just started to root two of them so this will take a month or so to get a good root system on the babies. It didn't grow much at all in the sandy soil so I put it in a giant pot along with all my other plants. Probably not resistant to root nematodes that occur in the sand. Grew kind of moderate slow at first but on the third year growing pretty fast.

D370 is primarily an aestavalis/vinifera hybrid distantly related to Suwannee. So this one is  65% vinifera (same amount as the taris cross) and 3% muscadine but instead of shuttleworthii has a decent amount of aestavalis.

Berries taste like vinifera, skin somewhat thick for a table grape, non slip skin, inside somewhat puply but melts in your mouth (not crisp like store grapes). Seeded but its easy to spit the seeds out. Should make good wine, juice or jellies as well. Not super sweet so may need to add a bit of sugar for wine or juice, though the taste is good and I want to cut back on sugar. No strong flavors, just mild table grape with a slight wine grape flavor.

z86 x BD5-117 (Stover x Daytona)

BD5-117 has better disease resistance than either parent, and passes on pierce tolerance better than just about any other hybrid. Berries are non slip skin, good table grape with slightly thick skin. Berries are a bit smaller than Daytona but still medium size. University of Florida's breeding program just ended up having a big mix up so this grape never got released. Then University of California used it to breed some California table grapes that are resistant to pierce disease but they stopped using it and are focusing on vitis arizonica crosses now.

BD5-117 also can be used to make a good wine. It has a higher percentage of vinifera than Taris Burgundy or D370, slightly more. It is about 12.5% shuttleworthii, along with rupestris, aestavalis and other things in the mix.

So similarly this cross will be 3% muscadine from the z86 side.

I have one seedling that started growing super fast, with really good disease resistance. It's less than a year old. So that is the one I will keep, then maybe next year I can root it. It has oak shaped leaves unlike all my other seedlings. I have two siblings that survived that aren't growing as fast but pretty healthy. I was thinking of getting rid of one of them because I have too many grape vines.

BD5-117 selfed:

I have a lot of problems rooting cuttings that people send me so I try to get seeds. Selfed seeds are not great, because they have lower vigor due to inbreeding. But out of about 25 selfed seeds I started I have four that are doing good. I have one that I think I like best. So I will need to get rid of some.

They have some rust susceptibility which pretty much every grape vine I have has some susceptibility to rust, which isn't an issue further north. Otherwise they seem totally disease resistant. They are growing slower than others because of being inbred and also BD4-117 is not a fast grower anyway but actually in absolute terms they probably grow at a normal speed. I just have a lot of hybrids that grow like weeds so they are slow in comparison.

I also have Suwannee which is growing fast but slightly more disease prone than my others. I tried to root it but the wind keeps blowing it out of its pot so I gave up. But these varieties are overall better than Suwannee, Stover, Blanc Du Boise etc. Suwannee does have large berries and I was hoping to cross it at some point. It does grow fast, but the disease susceptibility is slightly more than I want. Blanc Du Boise won't survive for me, as most varieties won't. Never had Stover but the BD4-117 is better than Stover anyway and is half Stover.

I was looking for $10 a plant, which much of that will go into shipping cost. Maybe do a postal money order or something which I can cash at the post office. Just PM me, but I'm not going to be in a rush to send these out because I need to let them get a little bigger before shipping them, except for one taris x z86 which is actually really big.




1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2022, 12:52:11 PM »
Correction: BD5-117 does have a fair amount of black rot susceptibility. I don't know how suceptible the selfed seedlings will be. Pretty much all my stuff will have some slight suceptibility to black rot and rust.

For example, my D370 x z86 grew well all year without spray. It will survive and grow without spray. But by the end of the year, the disease builds up and theres a lot of black spots and holes in leaves. Thus I started spraying them a bit. The spray itself often damages the leaves too if you don't do it right. But overall these are far better than any other grape variety you can get.

Muscadines will grow really well in Florida, but I don't care for the fruit that much. I do like the native shuttleworthii grape, but the texture is pulpy,chewy so hard to spit the seeds out and the skin pops right off and in some years can be acidic. I have a shuttleworthii cross I made but haven't been able to get it to root. I also crossed the D370 x z86 with a half shuttleworthii half aestavalis male.

Yes I forgot to say also the D370 x z86 is female and will need a pollinator. I lost a lot of grapes due to lack of pollination. The other ones you have a toss up 50/50 they could be self fertile (hermaphrodite) or female.

Also I'm willing to trade for a rooted Dunstan's Dream grape vine.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 03:49:39 PM by 1rainman »

Galatians522

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2022, 11:24:25 PM »
Sounds like you have some very unique genetics. I hope you get some buyers to help spread them around--I may be one of them if I can figure out where to put a trellis. I bet Josh Jamison with Cody Cove Farm would be interested. I heard that he was selling Il Primo at one point.

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2022, 09:19:01 PM »
The best thing for grapes or tomatoes is a chain link fence but mine are growing in trees. Il primo and taris burgundy is the same plant. It's very shuttleworthi like which is more favorite grape species so I'd like to cross it into the mix more.

It's impossible to find any southern grapes online other than Blanc du Boise, stover, and Dunstan's dream and they are almost always sold out. I want cab zehn which is a half sibling of z86 and Dunstan's dream but I don't have much room. I had cab zehn cuttings but they didn't root. Trying to graft one see if it lives.


Galatians522

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2022, 10:46:46 PM »
The best thing for grapes or tomatoes is a chain link fence but mine are growing in trees. Il primo and taris burgundy is the same plant. It's very shuttleworthi like which is more favorite grape species so I'd like to cross it into the mix more.

It's impossible to find any southern grapes online other than Blanc du Boise, stover, and Dunstan's dream and they are almost always sold out. I want cab zehn which is a half sibling of z86 and Dunstan's dream but I don't have much room. I had cab zehn cuttings but they didn't root. Trying to graft one see if it lives.

After he came back from Costa Rica Joseph Fennell trained most of his vines to grow on trees at Lady Lake. It is less maintenance and is how grapes grow naturally--harvesting and maintenance are more difficult, but they say the vines have less trouble with disease. I think personally that Tari's/I'm Primo is one of his selections that stuck around.

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2022, 11:48:05 PM »
Taris sounds similar to the half shuttleworthi parent of stover but may be slightly better. Mine are mostly on a pepper tree which is a bush so I can reach most but not all. There is less disease about six or eight feet up or more. I guess less humidity less dampness. It's nearly impossible harvesting grapes from a tall tree. I mainly am focused on breeding and seeing what survives. They love fences even barb wire though I would put up something higher in addition to the fence.

Update on the grape d370 x z86 I ate one that fell on the ground because it was so ripe. Flavor blew my mind. Much better than a store grape. Wine flavor the Cabernet Sauvignon really coming out. The other grapes on the bunch just normal grape flavor. Many are splitting and falling off but when super ripe the wine flavor comes out. Weird that it's a green grape and both parents black. Also non slip skin. I really hope to get to try grapes from the taris cross.

Stomata

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2022, 05:53:23 PM »
Im interested when your ready!

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2022, 08:01:23 PM »
I'm in port Charlotte. You could come down and get them or just send a postal money order and I'll ship them. Several people said they want some but I haven't got any money order and my PayPal doesn't work. I'm not giving them away anymore. I spent $20 shipping last time though it was a huge plant these are smaller. I'm poor anyway so can use the cash.

Sarasota is less humid and wet than here by a small margin so they'll do slightly better but I do get rust fungus in south Florida due to warm temps and high humidity. They will survive without spray but some copper spray with a little water added maybe some Neem oil watered down is recommended. Spray can burn leaves so a little extra water is good.

This seedling from this year one of my z86 x bd117 is growing like crazy I need to root a piece. Trying to get rid of some of my existing plants though. I have a couple z86 x bd that are growing normal where this one is a foot a day weed growth like my one tari x z86. My slower growing ones and that is a relative term I want to get rid of.

No matter how big they get they don't get grapes until three years for some reason. My taris x z86 is huge but only two years old so no grapes. Well that is from seed. The cuttings you might get grapes in two years.

They also don't grow fast in sand which is why I have them in huge pots. Root nematodes in sand suck the sap. They don't die but not much growth. Also sand lacks nutrients. I started adding cheap cat litter to the soil along with potting soil and mulch on top. Part of the reason they grow like weeds. But also the varieties. Z86 crosses with that small amount of muscadine in them doing really well here.

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2022, 08:05:11 PM »
The cheap cat litter is pure clay. Expensive cat litter has chemicals added so don't mess with that. The clay holds water and nutrients better but too much is bad the roots will be too wet. A small amount in the mix works really well though. For a long time all my grapes were dying. Now I am finally having success.

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2022, 07:46:41 PM »
A bunch of people said they want them but nobody has sent a money order yet. It will cost $5-$10 to ship the plant. I only make a couple dollars. Compare that to buying online it will be about $25 when you include shipping.

Besides being great varieties to share with others I want to free up room because I have too many grapevines.

The three small ones are selfed bd (stover x Daytona) I germinated them later and they grow a little slower due to inbreeding. These are the three survivors out of 30 seeds. They survived in the most disease prone area for grapes (south Florida). If you breed them their offspring will have restored vigor and grow fast. Blanc du Boise's parent is a slow growing selfed. Even these are doing decent. The weak ones were left to die.

The moderate size are z86 x bd and z86 x taris (rooted). The huge one is the same age a few months old z86 x bd that is about six feet long with a thick trunk literally every day is visibly bigger. My taris x z86 is similar super fast growing. I had about 20 seeds and left with three normal growing and one super crazy healthy one. A few seeds don't germinate and others get disease. These are some of the best you can find in terms of good quality grapes and high disease resistance. They are all good size except bd selfed.












hammer524

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2022, 07:51:43 PM »
Hey I'll hit you up at the end of the week when I get paid from my overtime check. Currently not growing any tropical grapes but I would be interested in buy a couple different varieties that you would recommend for my climate. Haven't done any research yet. Maybe you have covered this in your previous comments but is there a good variety for drying / raisins? Love me some raisins.

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2022, 08:21:44 PM »
You are in Arizona? You have way more options. The main issue here besides pierce disease the high humidity invites all kinds of fungus and rot unless the plant has natural immunity. The only seedless grape I know of for the south is Orlando seedless. It grows really fast small seedless berries. Pierce tolerant but mine got covered in fungus which isn't an issue in Arizona. Don't know if you will be able to find it anywhere. The ones I have and 99% of the varieties out there are seeded.

Most of the breeding is also focused on wine but these are good fresh eating as well.

hammer524

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2022, 12:06:57 AM »
mhmm maybe I should just try to nab a common seedless variety locally then. Just wanted to grow them for raisins

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2022, 02:01:13 PM »
European grapes only do well on the west coast. Even there there's issues. You can check for university of Arkansas released. They have some seedless hybrids. Orlando seedless if you can find it.

Around here Walmart, home Depot etc sells grapes that won't survive here. They don't know anything about growing plants. Probably the same in Arizona.

Arkansas released weren't bred for pierce tolerance. You could go 20 years without getting it but in warm climates it will kill plants without natural resistance. They bred them in northern Arkansas which is the north south border for pierce because cold winters kills it. Other than that they have great hybrids. I can't remember the seedless ones. I think Saturn is one of them. It may have some pierce tolerance. Most of theirs are seeded like hope and joy but there's a few seedless releases and a few places sell them online. Florida releases are much harder to find.

hammer524

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2022, 02:03:40 PM »
Thanks for the information. I'll check out the Arkansas hybrids and be on the lookout for the Orlando seedless. 

1rainman

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2022, 12:47:01 PM »
This website has them. Vanessa is a good lubrusca hybrid seedless. Venus and Saturn from Arkansas. These would not be suited for the American South-East but might do well in Arizona. Just have to get a few different ones and see which ones do well for you. But a pure vinifera (European) grape almost definitely won't handle the heat or any disease. 

https://plantingjustice.org/shop/fruiting-vines/grape-table/vanessa/

hammer524

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Re: Tropical Grapes
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2022, 01:24:51 PM »
Sweet. I added my email to be notified when they are back in stock.

 

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