Author Topic: Does this tree have citrus greening?  (Read 2724 times)

edweather

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Does this tree have citrus greening?
« on: December 28, 2022, 09:02:56 AM »
We have 5 trees, and they are doing ok except for this one. After reading the recent thread about greening, I noticed that tree looks a lot like this one. The rootstock is from a Halo orange, and we started it from seed 7 years ago up north, and brought it south with us in 2016. I grafted a Cara Cara, and a Honeybell to it about 5 years ago. It was doing great for 4 years. In the last year or so it started looking like this. Hope the photos are ok. I know there is some leaf miner damage, and recent freeze damage, and sun shadows. Please help.











« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 09:20:25 AM by edweather »

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2022, 09:54:55 AM »
If you grab a branch and move it side to side is the trunk stable where it meets the ground, or do you see abnormal movement down there? My tangelo became really loose at the root base, as if I had taken a shovel and cut all around it. I am told that's one of the earliest symptoms of HLB as it attacks the roots and starves the tree.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2022, 02:39:24 PM »
The base is solid. I'm at a loss as what's going on with. I think I've done every right. My other treed are good for the most part. Hopefully it will fill out this spring.

Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2022, 06:48:40 PM »
Besides the leaf miner damage, the tree looks to have a nutrition deficiency.  Iron and or Manganese.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2022, 11:35:48 PM »
Not too sure how that could occur, because I fertilize with a complete supplement, and the other trees look good. But anything is possible, I'll look into it.

Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2022, 02:02:49 PM »
Manganese deficiency symptoms frequently show up on new growth, then generally fade away as the leaf matures.  This is due to the rapid growth of new leaves, and the sparse amount of manganese in the soil. Therefore it takes time for the manganese deficiency level to fill up.  In citrus a manganese leaf deficiency is shown as a yellowish leaf with green veins WITH green borders on the sides of the veins.

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2022, 10:15:10 PM »
Not greening. Something going on. Possibly some kind of insect or virus involved. I would spray it with neem oil to be sure and treat the roots with insecticide or water it with neem oil and water (not the best but helps). I have found tiny almost invisible slugs that sucked sap out of the tree, spider mites invisible to the eye that suck sap etc which when extremely infested can look like nutrient deficiency. The neem oil will kill whatever tiny insects that might be on it.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2022, 11:31:04 PM »
Thanks for the help. We have pretty acidic soil here in SE Georgia,  so I try to keep an eye on that, for best nutrient uptake. The tree has struggled for a year, but we did get a nice crop of oranges, just picked before our 5 day cold snap.  I'll keep working at it. I've always questioned the CUTIE rootstock. We call it our Franken tree. Hopefully it will do better this year.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2023, 10:07:09 AM »
We also have very sandy soil here in SE coastal GA. After reading the other recent thread, I might benefit from adding some compost. I follow the UGA extension fertilizing recommendations for our area, so hopefully I'm not too far off on that end.

Yorgos

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 11:27:03 AM »
If they have any fruit the center column (the columella i think) will be curved. 
Near NRG Stadium, Houston Texas. USDA zone 9a

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2023, 02:10:35 PM »
Thanks for that. We picked a bunch of Honeybells before the freeze, and I think they're good, but I will confirm.

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2023, 02:50:25 PM »
The rootstock is from a Halo orange, and we started it from seed 7 years ago up north, and brought it south with us in 2016. I grafted a Cara Cara, and a Honeybell to it about 5 years ago. It was doing great for 4 years.

First question, do you have the disease in your area ?
Since you started from seed, then grafted to other varieties, could that have transmitted the disease ?
Have you had any significant freezes or heatwaves on that tree that could have caused shock ?

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2023, 10:43:03 PM »
Fruit from trees with greening seem normal but drier less sweet. It just goes downhill from there. Maybe after it has it bad and almost dead by then you don't get much fruit though.

With sand it's the same thing if you have pure clay it's really bad soil and besides compost it's recommended to add sand. Pure sand is also bad other than cactus types though they benefit from compost too. Usually up north it's clay and sediment but I have seen layers of pure clay especially along a creek bed where it dug into the ground and you can see layers. Here it's dand and a few limestones shell then ground water. The lime makes it alkaline along with shells pure sand is neutral so it's hard to tell in Florida. We have a lot of pine and pine needles are extremely acidic so the acidity varies a lot.

Like a sandy loam would be a really nice soil. But compost is the main treatment for sand or clay though clay benefits from sand and sand from clay to balance it. But most tropical stuff leans towards Sandy soil anyway like citrus and such just not pure sand

cassowary

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2023, 12:13:32 AM »
Fruit from trees with greening seem normal but drier less sweet. It just goes downhill from there. Maybe after it has it bad and almost dead by then you don't get much fruit though.

With sand it's the same thing if you have pure clay it's really bad soil and besides compost it's recommended to add sand. Pure sand is also bad other than cactus types though they benefit from compost too. Usually up north it's clay and sediment but I have seen layers of pure clay especially along a creek bed where it dug into the ground and you can see layers. Here it's dand and a few limestones shell then ground water. The lime makes it alkaline along with shells pure sand is neutral so it's hard to tell in Florida. We have a lot of pine and pine needles are extremely acidic so the acidity varies a lot.

Like a sandy loam would be a really nice soil. But compost is the main treatment for sand or clay though clay benefits from sand and sand from clay to balance it. But most tropical stuff leans towards Sandy soil anyway like citrus and such just not pure sand

Most tropical fruit tree's actually lean towards clay soil if it is even possible to make such a statement.
Have a look at the soil data for most tropical to equatorial regions where many common tropical fruits come from. Mostly clay.
And that is because clay is the smallest particle of a "rock" and rocks breaks down faster in tropical climates since the rate of photosynthesis is higher which means more root acid exudates and glucose to microbes. muric acid etc.


Tropical soils are generally not black cause less humates are retained since the temperature is not right for humate retention.
Mostly heavy yellow to red clay with carbon at 3-5%.
The citrus here does well in the heavy clay at ph 5.6. But it's not as good as clay higher in carbon (10-15%) since humates have higher anion exchange capacity and will raise ph a bit unless it's saturated with H. That's how liming works, it replaces H ions with Ca ions.

This olfactory expert made an excellent video about citrus greening and citrus in Florida in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Cmv1xDVg
CASSOWARYSEEDS.COM
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Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2023, 02:56:40 PM »
Thanks for the attached link.  It was EXCELLENT. Very helpful.  It also shows that many of the UF recommendations were helpful for the short run, but damaging in the long run.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 04:23:03 PM by Millet »

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2023, 07:35:30 PM »
Sand seems associated with water. A mountain area or inland area is probably clay other than some rivers. interesting info. I just think of Italy or the Caribbean or Florida as sort of tropical or subtropical but there's Vietnam, Brazil etc

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2023, 10:05:26 AM »
Thanks for the attached link.  It was EXCELLENT. Very helpful.  It also shows that many of the UF recommendations were helpful for the short run, but damaging in the long run.

Yes that is a very interesting video presentation on the state of affairs in the Florida citrus industry. The presenter leaves some questions unanswered but overall I like the concept of not using any of the 'cides' on my trees and plants. I am giving strong consideration to employing this with my new Sugar Belle and Tango.

Incidentally here is a thread from 2019 I posted with a link to an article which appears to parallel the presentation from Mr. Dykstra. Basically, the writer is saying the industry has murdered their trees using all the chemicals which have killed the microbes in the soil. Weak soil=weak trees=open to attack by insects including citrus psyllid.

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=32386.msg355515#msg355515

https://gmwatch.org/en/106-news/latest-news/18803-expert-says-there-s-a-cure-for-citrus-greening-so-why-is-it-being-ignored

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2023, 01:52:37 PM »
It's a lack of genetic diversity. Like with bananas they plant all the same type then eventually some disease wipes out that variety impossible to stop because the same variety planted everywhere. I wish they would release those new resistant hybrids. Pretty much anything that isn't naturally resistant is taken out in this area regardless of soil.

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2023, 09:52:42 PM »
So this guy is saying that if you keep a citrus tree at optimum health and vitality no insects, including the HLB psyllid, will attack it. That a tree with 10-12 brix will not be bothered by insects. Does anyone on here believe it?

Very interesting video and I tend to think a lot of it rings pretty true, especially about the killing of beneficial microbes using sprays and drenches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Cmv1xDVg

scamper

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2023, 01:31:24 AM »
Sample size of one does not a statistic make.

I also like how those youtube videos showing grafting but never follow-up because their attempts all failed.

Galatians522

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2023, 09:24:06 AM »
So this guy is saying that if you keep a citrus tree at optimum health and vitality no insects, including the HLB psyllid, will attack it. That a tree with 10-12 brix will not be bothered by insects. Does anyone on here believe it?

Very interesting video and I tend to think a lot of it rings pretty true, especially about the killing of beneficial microbes using sprays and drenches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Cmv1xDVg

Has anyone on here measured a citrus leaf at 12 brix? I have not been in the habit of checking leaf brix, but that would be good number for Valencia fruit and would be higher than Hamlin fruit even before HLB. How does a tree produce a leaf with higher brix than the fruit? I think from my conversations with growers that there is some truth to what he says about soil microbes. A lot of the best growers have been applying compost and that does seem to improve tree health. Ultimately, the real test of whether this works is if the groves managed this way can turn a profit. If the average grove managed with his methods isn't profitable, its not of much use. As I mentiined elsewhere, the real issue facing Florida Citrus growers is an economic one. If growers were getting $24/box like the California industry or even $19/box like in Texas you would not be seeing dead groves everywhere. The average price per box for Florida last year was $12, by the way.

Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2023, 03:06:57 PM »
Galatians 522  your post is exactly correct.  No profit = abandon groves.

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2023, 03:52:28 PM »
Measuring Brix
https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/the-beauty-of-brix/

If the average grove managed with his methods isn't profitable, its not of much use. As I mentiined elsewhere, the real issue facing Florida Citrus growers is an economic one.
Pest control is a significant input in chemicals, application and monitoring.
Cutting that could increase profitability. If a new fertiliser type is the new input, you are pulling out some of the older one, so costs might balance as you replace pest control costs with plant health inputs.
Transition can be hard as you may need to up costs to implement the new and phase the old, so that may be a barrier to change.


If the Brix idea works,  it also means what we think are healthy well fertilised trees may be attracting pests.
I have certainly noticed pests moving back after a fertiliser flush on tender sappy growth.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 04:03:58 PM by pagnr »

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2023, 04:29:27 PM »
In terms of ordering a box of honeybells or citrus it was always high but like $25 for a box of 15 or 20. Now it's $100. It's outrageous. Same with road side oranges. Used to be cheap as dirt now super high if you can find them. Usually they are passing California oranges off on the side of the road. Maybe $12 wholesale. If you have a good tree you can make some money selling them mail order.

The Florida fruits are just super juicy compared to everywhere else. Second best is Brazil. Cali and Texas are dry fruits though people on here before said how good California oranges are. People pay for Florida oranges because they are the best. Well used to be before greening.

But money is an issue because Florida land is going up. They sell their land which becomes houses. Or switching to peaches. There's less groves than there used to be but still a lot. The answer are new citrus breeds that are disease resistant and have good fruit.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 04:32:13 PM by 1rainman »

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2023, 06:21:25 PM »
Measuring Brix
https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/the-beauty-of-brix/

If the average grove managed with his methods isn't profitable, its not of much use. As I mentiined elsewhere, the real issue facing Florida Citrus growers is an economic one.
Pest control is a significant input in chemicals, application and monitoring.
Cutting that could increase profitability. If a new fertiliser type is the new input, you are pulling out some of the older one, so costs might balance as you replace pest control costs with plant health inputs.
Transition can be hard as you may need to up costs to implement the new and phase the old, so that may be a barrier to change.


If the Brix idea works,  it also means what we think are healthy well fertilised trees may be attracting pests.
I have certainly noticed pests moving back after a fertiliser flush on tender sappy growth.

That link provides some very helpful information - thanks!

The question I have is how to reduce nitrate-nitrogen levels in citrus trees, or how to apply fertilizer in a manner that won't elevate nitrate-nitrogen. I'm using a non-organic 6-4-6 granular fertilizer with all the micros, and a 20-10-20 liquid Peters also with micros. Any recommendation on the best application for a couple of 2' tall trees (Tango and Sugar Belle), is appreciated.

I've improved the sandy soil with compost, coffee grounds, and some really nice pine-bark composted soil I removed from a garden planter box in which I have grown some world-class collards.

Galatians522

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2023, 10:14:00 PM »
In terms of ordering a box of honeybells or citrus it was always high but like $25 for a box of 15 or 20. Now it's $100. It's outrageous. Same with road side oranges. Used to be cheap as dirt now super high if you can find them. Usually they are passing California oranges off on the side of the road. Maybe $12 wholesale. If you have a good tree you can make some money selling them mail order.

Yes, $12 per 90lb box is the rounded wholesale number for Valencia oranges from USDA Citrus Statistics and represents mostly fruit that went to the processing plant (since only a small portion of FL Valencias go for fresh fruit). I don't remember the wholesale number for Honeybells for sure, but I think it was around $27 (for a 90lb box). That coud be a little off, though, because they lumped them with tangerines this year since production has gone so low. Your numbers point out exactly the disconnect that I am talking about. The grower is getting a wholesale price of $27 for a 90lb box of Tangelos that are being mailed as 9 boxes with ~10 lbs each at $100 a pop or $900. For growing the crop all year, harvesting it, and hauling it to the packing plant, the grower gets 3%. The middle man and retailer get the other 97%.

Galatians522

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2023, 10:51:42 PM »
I researched the brix theory a bit. I found a research paper which stated that there have been no peer reviewed scientific studies done that support this theory. The one study done (not peer reviewed) was done with grapes and showed no difference in insect predation based on leaf brix level.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://organicbc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/I-101-Brix-Final-Report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwie3PzNjtr8AhUPRjABHZCkBVgQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2TjjEyI9hcN3AVdEo6jsr1

Coincidentally, spotted winged drosiphilia predation increases significantly in fruits as brix rises above 10.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/em9263.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiS2LS4lNr8AhUjsDEKHVtIA3g4ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw24j_bEsdX8Gk9XmwG5CSJP

I am not saying that these guys are absolutely wrong, but until they support their claims with a double blind study that is published in a peer reviewed scientific journal, it is just their theory. It is also interesting that most of the proponents of the theory are profiting from it in some way.  ???

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2023, 10:59:48 PM »
I guess Nitrate is the form of Nitrogen. Common forms are Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate.
There are other N forms such as Urea.
Ammonium Nitrate would supply N in two forms, but lower Nitrate % than straight Nitrate forms for the same total N.
There are also newer slow release complexed N forms that need to break down to release. These are large N molecules, often used in pot mix to time release.
Organic forms can be slower release, lower Nitrate.

The label of the fertiliser should detail the Nitrogen forms that give the total N for the 6-4-6 or 20-10-20
It should say % Urea or % Ammonium nitrate
High Potassium fertilisers could be Potassium Nitrate based as fertilisers are made to a formula to get the NPK and micro balanced
This is the easiest way to get high N high K.
Organic forms can be slower release as discussed above.

Nitrate has problems, but so do Urea and Ammonia in high doses to plants.
I have made a few bungles by charging off on a new direction.
My policy is now add less fertiliser apply twice and see what happens.
I have also repotted with high fertiliser, only to get super growth and pots outgrown quickly.

Apart from Brix to plant health there is also this.

High levels of nitrate in vegetables are frequently reported. The potential hazard of vegetable-borne nitrate is from its conversion to methaemoglobin-producing nitrite before and/or after ingestion. Methaemoglobin cannot bind oxygen and produces a leftward shift in oxygen-dissociation curve, causing hyperaemia.

https://www.horizononline.com/nitrogen-in-slow-release-fertilizer/
https://pacificfertiliser.com/slow-release-nitrogen/3311/

Galatians522

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2023, 11:07:06 PM »
Pagnr,

One thing I did see in that research paper was that while there is no support for the brix theory at the moment, there is some evidence that high leaf nitrate levels can increase the level of insect predation.

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2023, 11:11:50 PM »
I am not saying that these guys are absolutely wrong, but until they support their claims with a double blind study that is published in a peer reviewed scientific journal, it is just their theory. It is also interesting that most of the proponents of the theory are profiting from it in some way.  ???

I think this will erase all your doubts on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMmSH-628jI

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2023, 09:47:40 AM »
I am not saying that these guys are absolutely wrong, but until they support their claims with a double blind study that is published in a peer reviewed scientific journal, it is just their theory. It is also interesting that most of the proponents of the theory are profiting from it in some way.  ???

I think this will erase all your doubts on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMmSH-628jI

 ;D

Galatians522

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2023, 12:07:57 PM »
I am not saying that these guys are absolutely wrong, but until they support their claims with a double blind study that is published in a peer reviewed scientific journal, it is just their theory. It is also interesting that most of the proponents of the theory are profiting from it in some way.  ???

I think this will erase all your doubts on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMmSH-628jI

So, I followed the link expecting a scientific study...You have a great sense of humor! ;D

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2023, 01:53:12 PM »
Thank you both for the likes.

Well that song has been peer reviewed by other musicians and fans too.
As for double blind, it has been heard on radio alone, and this you tube has no actual video for the song, so that fits too.
Jonathan Richman, one of the USA's finest.

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2023, 02:34:10 PM »
Florida is Jurassic Park type of insect swarms but I have seldom seen them on citrus other than that one caterpillar that feeds on citrus which you can easily kill by hand. Citrus greening is the only real issue which there is no cure other than the netting they invented. Sometimes black mildew on leaves from humidity which doesn't harm the plant other than blocking sunlight needs cleaned off. I did get tiny slugs eating sap in my container citrus up north. The ants would probably kill them in Florida.

Citrus is super easy to grow everyone is over complicating it.

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2023, 03:42:55 PM »
I purchased a composted and mineral blend / humane fertiliser /  from a company that promoted the Brix idea to Australia.
I was happy with the plant response, but also later added some regular NPK to get some of those levels up.
In soil less media I was using Osmocote plus micromax for trace plus some iron and lime dolomite.
Overall I thought that bombed out after a while, and the organic amendments seemed to get it going again without repotting.
Once I did notice the full product range from a high NPK fertiliser company, it also included fungicides and insecticides etc to manage the plants grown that way.

Personally I didn't ever try to measure Brix, it could be an interesting tool.
Fertiliser is big business and all are profiting from promoting what they sell.

Humates and Organics have become more mainstream, and retaining soil Carbon on farms is now widely accepted, if not essential.
Years ago this was crackpot hippy nonsense, but now is fairly well accepted and practised.
This fertiliser contains osmocote prills and organic type pellets.
https://gardensuperstore.com.au/osmocote-plus-organics-all-purpose-including-natives-plant-food-soil-improver/?sku=120100&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_bieBhDSARIsADU4zLeaoW7zUtH34hMTtT9Ye3O9i7aATIfqfOec0RN52vPJQoSy-9XGmTMaAppnEALw_wcB

 

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