Author Topic: Does this tree have citrus greening?  (Read 2485 times)

edweather

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Does this tree have citrus greening?
« on: December 28, 2022, 09:02:56 AM »
We have 5 trees, and they are doing ok except for this one. After reading the recent thread about greening, I noticed that tree looks a lot like this one. The rootstock is from a Halo orange, and we started it from seed 7 years ago up north, and brought it south with us in 2016. I grafted a Cara Cara, and a Honeybell to it about 5 years ago. It was doing great for 4 years. In the last year or so it started looking like this. Hope the photos are ok. I know there is some leaf miner damage, and recent freeze damage, and sun shadows. Please help.











« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 09:20:25 AM by edweather »

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2022, 09:54:55 AM »
If you grab a branch and move it side to side is the trunk stable where it meets the ground, or do you see abnormal movement down there? My tangelo became really loose at the root base, as if I had taken a shovel and cut all around it. I am told that's one of the earliest symptoms of HLB as it attacks the roots and starves the tree.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2022, 02:39:24 PM »
The base is solid. I'm at a loss as what's going on with. I think I've done every right. My other treed are good for the most part. Hopefully it will fill out this spring.

Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2022, 06:48:40 PM »
Besides the leaf miner damage, the tree looks to have a nutrition deficiency.  Iron and or Manganese.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2022, 11:35:48 PM »
Not too sure how that could occur, because I fertilize with a complete supplement, and the other trees look good. But anything is possible, I'll look into it.

Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2022, 02:02:49 PM »
Manganese deficiency symptoms frequently show up on new growth, then generally fade away as the leaf matures.  This is due to the rapid growth of new leaves, and the sparse amount of manganese in the soil. Therefore it takes time for the manganese deficiency level to fill up.  In citrus a manganese leaf deficiency is shown as a yellowish leaf with green veins WITH green borders on the sides of the veins.

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2022, 10:15:10 PM »
Not greening. Something going on. Possibly some kind of insect or virus involved. I would spray it with neem oil to be sure and treat the roots with insecticide or water it with neem oil and water (not the best but helps). I have found tiny almost invisible slugs that sucked sap out of the tree, spider mites invisible to the eye that suck sap etc which when extremely infested can look like nutrient deficiency. The neem oil will kill whatever tiny insects that might be on it.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2022, 11:31:04 PM »
Thanks for the help. We have pretty acidic soil here in SE Georgia,  so I try to keep an eye on that, for best nutrient uptake. The tree has struggled for a year, but we did get a nice crop of oranges, just picked before our 5 day cold snap.  I'll keep working at it. I've always questioned the CUTIE rootstock. We call it our Franken tree. Hopefully it will do better this year.

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2023, 10:07:09 AM »
We also have very sandy soil here in SE coastal GA. After reading the other recent thread, I might benefit from adding some compost. I follow the UGA extension fertilizing recommendations for our area, so hopefully I'm not too far off on that end.

Yorgos

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 11:27:03 AM »
If they have any fruit the center column (the columella i think) will be curved. 
Near NRG Stadium, Houston Texas. USDA zone 9a

edweather

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2023, 02:10:35 PM »
Thanks for that. We picked a bunch of Honeybells before the freeze, and I think they're good, but I will confirm.

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2023, 02:50:25 PM »
The rootstock is from a Halo orange, and we started it from seed 7 years ago up north, and brought it south with us in 2016. I grafted a Cara Cara, and a Honeybell to it about 5 years ago. It was doing great for 4 years.

First question, do you have the disease in your area ?
Since you started from seed, then grafted to other varieties, could that have transmitted the disease ?
Have you had any significant freezes or heatwaves on that tree that could have caused shock ?

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2023, 10:43:03 PM »
Fruit from trees with greening seem normal but drier less sweet. It just goes downhill from there. Maybe after it has it bad and almost dead by then you don't get much fruit though.

With sand it's the same thing if you have pure clay it's really bad soil and besides compost it's recommended to add sand. Pure sand is also bad other than cactus types though they benefit from compost too. Usually up north it's clay and sediment but I have seen layers of pure clay especially along a creek bed where it dug into the ground and you can see layers. Here it's dand and a few limestones shell then ground water. The lime makes it alkaline along with shells pure sand is neutral so it's hard to tell in Florida. We have a lot of pine and pine needles are extremely acidic so the acidity varies a lot.

Like a sandy loam would be a really nice soil. But compost is the main treatment for sand or clay though clay benefits from sand and sand from clay to balance it. But most tropical stuff leans towards Sandy soil anyway like citrus and such just not pure sand

cassowary

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2023, 12:13:32 AM »
Fruit from trees with greening seem normal but drier less sweet. It just goes downhill from there. Maybe after it has it bad and almost dead by then you don't get much fruit though.

With sand it's the same thing if you have pure clay it's really bad soil and besides compost it's recommended to add sand. Pure sand is also bad other than cactus types though they benefit from compost too. Usually up north it's clay and sediment but I have seen layers of pure clay especially along a creek bed where it dug into the ground and you can see layers. Here it's dand and a few limestones shell then ground water. The lime makes it alkaline along with shells pure sand is neutral so it's hard to tell in Florida. We have a lot of pine and pine needles are extremely acidic so the acidity varies a lot.

Like a sandy loam would be a really nice soil. But compost is the main treatment for sand or clay though clay benefits from sand and sand from clay to balance it. But most tropical stuff leans towards Sandy soil anyway like citrus and such just not pure sand

Most tropical fruit tree's actually lean towards clay soil if it is even possible to make such a statement.
Have a look at the soil data for most tropical to equatorial regions where many common tropical fruits come from. Mostly clay.
And that is because clay is the smallest particle of a "rock" and rocks breaks down faster in tropical climates since the rate of photosynthesis is higher which means more root acid exudates and glucose to microbes. muric acid etc.


Tropical soils are generally not black cause less humates are retained since the temperature is not right for humate retention.
Mostly heavy yellow to red clay with carbon at 3-5%.
The citrus here does well in the heavy clay at ph 5.6. But it's not as good as clay higher in carbon (10-15%) since humates have higher anion exchange capacity and will raise ph a bit unless it's saturated with H. That's how liming works, it replaces H ions with Ca ions.

This olfactory expert made an excellent video about citrus greening and citrus in Florida in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Cmv1xDVg
CASSOWARYSEEDS.COM
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Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2023, 02:56:40 PM »
Thanks for the attached link.  It was EXCELLENT. Very helpful.  It also shows that many of the UF recommendations were helpful for the short run, but damaging in the long run.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 04:23:03 PM by Millet »

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2023, 07:35:30 PM »
Sand seems associated with water. A mountain area or inland area is probably clay other than some rivers. interesting info. I just think of Italy or the Caribbean or Florida as sort of tropical or subtropical but there's Vietnam, Brazil etc

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2023, 10:05:26 AM »
Thanks for the attached link.  It was EXCELLENT. Very helpful.  It also shows that many of the UF recommendations were helpful for the short run, but damaging in the long run.

Yes that is a very interesting video presentation on the state of affairs in the Florida citrus industry. The presenter leaves some questions unanswered but overall I like the concept of not using any of the 'cides' on my trees and plants. I am giving strong consideration to employing this with my new Sugar Belle and Tango.

Incidentally here is a thread from 2019 I posted with a link to an article which appears to parallel the presentation from Mr. Dykstra. Basically, the writer is saying the industry has murdered their trees using all the chemicals which have killed the microbes in the soil. Weak soil=weak trees=open to attack by insects including citrus psyllid.

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=32386.msg355515#msg355515

https://gmwatch.org/en/106-news/latest-news/18803-expert-says-there-s-a-cure-for-citrus-greening-so-why-is-it-being-ignored

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2023, 01:52:37 PM »
It's a lack of genetic diversity. Like with bananas they plant all the same type then eventually some disease wipes out that variety impossible to stop because the same variety planted everywhere. I wish they would release those new resistant hybrids. Pretty much anything that isn't naturally resistant is taken out in this area regardless of soil.

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2023, 09:52:42 PM »
So this guy is saying that if you keep a citrus tree at optimum health and vitality no insects, including the HLB psyllid, will attack it. That a tree with 10-12 brix will not be bothered by insects. Does anyone on here believe it?

Very interesting video and I tend to think a lot of it rings pretty true, especially about the killing of beneficial microbes using sprays and drenches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Cmv1xDVg

scamper

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2023, 01:31:24 AM »
Sample size of one does not a statistic make.

I also like how those youtube videos showing grafting but never follow-up because their attempts all failed.

Galatians522

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2023, 09:24:06 AM »
So this guy is saying that if you keep a citrus tree at optimum health and vitality no insects, including the HLB psyllid, will attack it. That a tree with 10-12 brix will not be bothered by insects. Does anyone on here believe it?

Very interesting video and I tend to think a lot of it rings pretty true, especially about the killing of beneficial microbes using sprays and drenches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB9Cmv1xDVg

Has anyone on here measured a citrus leaf at 12 brix? I have not been in the habit of checking leaf brix, but that would be good number for Valencia fruit and would be higher than Hamlin fruit even before HLB. How does a tree produce a leaf with higher brix than the fruit? I think from my conversations with growers that there is some truth to what he says about soil microbes. A lot of the best growers have been applying compost and that does seem to improve tree health. Ultimately, the real test of whether this works is if the groves managed this way can turn a profit. If the average grove managed with his methods isn't profitable, its not of much use. As I mentiined elsewhere, the real issue facing Florida Citrus growers is an economic one. If growers were getting $24/box like the California industry or even $19/box like in Texas you would not be seeing dead groves everywhere. The average price per box for Florida last year was $12, by the way.

Millet

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2023, 03:06:57 PM »
Galatians 522  your post is exactly correct.  No profit = abandon groves.

pagnr

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2023, 03:52:28 PM »
Measuring Brix
https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/the-beauty-of-brix/

If the average grove managed with his methods isn't profitable, its not of much use. As I mentiined elsewhere, the real issue facing Florida Citrus growers is an economic one.
Pest control is a significant input in chemicals, application and monitoring.
Cutting that could increase profitability. If a new fertiliser type is the new input, you are pulling out some of the older one, so costs might balance as you replace pest control costs with plant health inputs.
Transition can be hard as you may need to up costs to implement the new and phase the old, so that may be a barrier to change.


If the Brix idea works,  it also means what we think are healthy well fertilised trees may be attracting pests.
I have certainly noticed pests moving back after a fertiliser flush on tender sappy growth.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 04:03:58 PM by pagnr »

1rainman

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2023, 04:29:27 PM »
In terms of ordering a box of honeybells or citrus it was always high but like $25 for a box of 15 or 20. Now it's $100. It's outrageous. Same with road side oranges. Used to be cheap as dirt now super high if you can find them. Usually they are passing California oranges off on the side of the road. Maybe $12 wholesale. If you have a good tree you can make some money selling them mail order.

The Florida fruits are just super juicy compared to everywhere else. Second best is Brazil. Cali and Texas are dry fruits though people on here before said how good California oranges are. People pay for Florida oranges because they are the best. Well used to be before greening.

But money is an issue because Florida land is going up. They sell their land which becomes houses. Or switching to peaches. There's less groves than there used to be but still a lot. The answer are new citrus breeds that are disease resistant and have good fruit.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 04:32:13 PM by 1rainman »

Calusa

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Re: Does this tree have citrus greening?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2023, 06:21:25 PM »
Measuring Brix
https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/the-beauty-of-brix/

If the average grove managed with his methods isn't profitable, its not of much use. As I mentiined elsewhere, the real issue facing Florida Citrus growers is an economic one.
Pest control is a significant input in chemicals, application and monitoring.
Cutting that could increase profitability. If a new fertiliser type is the new input, you are pulling out some of the older one, so costs might balance as you replace pest control costs with plant health inputs.
Transition can be hard as you may need to up costs to implement the new and phase the old, so that may be a barrier to change.


If the Brix idea works,  it also means what we think are healthy well fertilised trees may be attracting pests.
I have certainly noticed pests moving back after a fertiliser flush on tender sappy growth.

That link provides some very helpful information - thanks!

The question I have is how to reduce nitrate-nitrogen levels in citrus trees, or how to apply fertilizer in a manner that won't elevate nitrate-nitrogen. I'm using a non-organic 6-4-6 granular fertilizer with all the micros, and a 20-10-20 liquid Peters also with micros. Any recommendation on the best application for a couple of 2' tall trees (Tango and Sugar Belle), is appreciated.

I've improved the sandy soil with compost, coffee grounds, and some really nice pine-bark composted soil I removed from a garden planter box in which I have grown some world-class collards.