Author Topic: optimal pot riddle  (Read 1295 times)

Epiphyte

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optimal pot riddle
« on: February 06, 2023, 10:00:05 PM »
here's a riddle of sorts...

1. all the water bottle pots i make for my seedlings are semi-hydro...



it's a recent pic of a germinating seed from a store bought durian.  the plastic bottle has drainage holes an inch or two from the bottom.

2. virtually none of the plants i've bought come in semi-hydro pots. 

3 i've never made or bought semi-hydro pots for any of my larger plants...



on the left is a myrica californica that i recently approach grafted a starter myrica cerifera onto.  on the right is the same thing, but they are in the same pot, unlike the other two, which are in different pots.

none of the pots are semi-hydro.

can you solve the riddle?

i just posted lots of relevant pics and info on my blog.  sorry, i had initially planned on transferring all of it over here, but then i kept adding to it.  seems like nearly everyone uses the postimg website to share pics here? 

if there are any pics in my blog entry you'd like to discuss feel free to hotlink them in this thread.

Vegan Potato Man

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2023, 10:02:13 PM »
Not sure what the riddle is supposed to be, but in the cannabis world they call passive hydro like you described hempy pots or buckets.

Anyway I'd be concerned about growing tree seedlings in them since the bottom reservoir can become anaerobic pretty quick, especially if watering is infrequent.

I do grow my cannabis plants in them though with leca and rice hulls tho

Epiphyte

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2023, 03:54:50 PM »
Not sure what the riddle is supposed to be, but in the cannabis world they call passive hydro like you described hempy pots or buckets.
the riddle is whether it's possible for semi-hydro to be superior for smaller plants but inferior for larger plants. 

thanks for telling me about hempy pots, but they seem a bit different than my pots...



the medium goes all the way down below the drainage holes to the bottom of the pot.  perhaps the closest that i've gotten to hempy pots was putting leca balls on the bottom of the pot up to the drainage holes and then putting the regular medium the rest of the way. 

a friend of mine sometimes puts plastic pots in ceramic pots, which occasionally do not have drainage holes.  when she lifts a plastic pot out of a ceramic pot with no drainage, sometimes there will be quite a few long roots dangling from the plastic pot.  the roots had been happily growing in the water reservoir between the two pots.

Anyway I'd be concerned about growing tree seedlings in them since the bottom reservoir can become anaerobic pretty quick, especially if watering is infrequent.
this didn't quite make sense before i googled for hempy pots, but now i know what you mean.  this isn't an issue with my semi-hydro pots since the medium goes all the way down to the bottom of the pot.  even though the reservoir is filled with medium it can hold enough water to make a difference when watering is infrequent, at least in theory.

I do grow my cannabis plants in them though with leca and rice hulls tho
i've never tried using rice hulls.  i think that i 1st heard of them while watching a houseplant guy in indonesia.  where do you get them from?

Seanny

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2023, 05:24:23 PM »
Search for ‘stall rice hull bedding’
Rice hull has 18% amorphous silica by weight.
I use it as a long term silica source for potted plants.

I now switch to diatomaceous earth as a source of silica.
It’s cheaper and more compact.

Vegan Potato Man

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2023, 12:23:00 PM »
Search for ‘stall rice hull bedding’
Rice hull has 18% amorphous silica by weight.
I use it as a long term silica source for potted plants.

I now switch to diatomaceous earth as a source of silica.
It’s cheaper and more compact.

Thanks, didnt realize that DE was good for silica! I'm thinking it might wash out pretty easily in my LECA though. Silica is why I started using the rice hulls. I was using potassium silicate but it doesn't keep here with the humidity. Mine ended up turning into a brick, and now its a rubbery brick after I tried drying it out.


Not sure what the riddle is supposed to be, but in the cannabis world they call passive hydro like you described hempy pots or buckets.
the riddle is whether it's possible for semi-hydro to be superior for smaller plants but inferior for larger plants. 

thanks for telling me about hempy pots, but they seem a bit different than my pots...



the medium goes all the way down below the drainage holes to the bottom of the pot.  perhaps the closest that i've gotten to hempy pots was putting leca balls on the bottom of the pot up to the drainage holes and then putting the regular medium the rest of the way. 

a friend of mine sometimes puts plastic pots in ceramic pots, which occasionally do not have drainage holes.  when she lifts a plastic pot out of a ceramic pot with no drainage, sometimes there will be quite a few long roots dangling from the plastic pot.  the roots had been happily growing in the water reservoir between the two pots.

Anyway I'd be concerned about growing tree seedlings in them since the bottom reservoir can become anaerobic pretty quick, especially if watering is infrequent.
this didn't quite make sense before i googled for hempy pots, but now i know what you mean.  this isn't an issue with my semi-hydro pots since the medium goes all the way down to the bottom of the pot.  even though the reservoir is filled with medium it can hold enough water to make a difference when watering is infrequent, at least in theory.

I do grow my cannabis plants in them though with leca and rice hulls tho
i've never tried using rice hulls.  i think that i 1st heard of them while watching a houseplant guy in indonesia.  where do you get them from?

I ordered the rice hulls off amazon, for a couple bucks a pound. They're good for insulation too.

Also, hempy mostly just refers to the closed bottom vessel with drainage about 1-2 inches up to create a reservoir. The purpose of the LECA is to promote drainage and attempt to prevent anaerobic breakdown of your growing media. Personally I would be much more concerned having an organic based media sitting in the reservoir. I switched to ~80% LECA and 20% rice hulls because of this. It was pretty difficult to get a decent distribution with the rice hulls due to the difference in particle size though.

Also the way your friend grows with a lower reservoir and the roots growing down into it sounds a lot like Kratky, another form of passive hydro. The roots in the reservoir will wick up to the plant. Even with kratky it is important to change your nutrient solution/ reservoir periodically. As the plant takes up water it can raise the EC of the remaining solution. Personally I would say that passive hydro, at least hempy and kratky, are better suited for shorter duration plants and not (most) trees.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 12:30:35 PM by Vegan Potato Man »

Epiphyte

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 AM »
seanny and vegan potato man thanks for the info about rice hulls and silica.  i had never heard of silica as a possible amendment before. 

vegan potato man, i'm trying to figure out the typical percentage of organic material in my media.  i guess bark counts as organic? 

today i decided to try inarching my soursop seedling and my cherimoya seedling.  they were mixed with other seedlings...



the white pot, which was in a greenhouse, included spanish lime, soursop and panache fig.  the semi-hydro pot, which was outside, included mandelo, cherimoya and surinam cherry.  i removed the seedlings from the pots and inspected the roots that had been in the resevoir of the semi-hydro pot...



not sure whose roots those were but they looked ok. this particular media contained quite a bit of pumice.  here were all the seedlings laid out...



from left to right, spanish lime, soursop, panache fig, mandelo, surinam cherry and cherimoya.  somehow i underestimated the fig's vigor.  its roots dominated the pot, so comparing the two pots isn't so useful.  i was kinda curious whether the fruits would turn out striped or not.  for all i know it's a male fig. not sure what happened to that surinam cherry.  the mandelo seemed happy, it's my 1st time growing citrus from seed.  i wonder how the fruit will turn out.  hopefully it won't be as seedy as its mother.

here was the result of the inarching...



they are currently in the greenhouse.  i read in this forum about soursop being grafted onto cherimoya rootstock but i didn't get the impression that it was superior to a soursop on its own.  if my two seedlings successfully combine then i'll leave them be and see if it makes a difference.   

Seanny

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2023, 02:17:53 AM »
I have a soursop tree with 2 branches of cherilata.
Tree is dead.

I have a soursop tree with a branch of cherimoya.
All leaves are turning yellow.

I have a soursop tree grafted to cherimoya rootstock.
It has a branch of cherilata.
Cherilata leaves are deep green.
The shoot is growing.
Soursop leaves are deep green.

Rootstock seems to have a major effect on soursop surviving our winter .

I’m trying to solve compatibility of soursop on cherimoya rootstock by using cherilata inter-stock.
Maybe 48-17 fits as inter-stock too.
Try it?




Epiphyte

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2023, 01:46:13 PM »
Seanny, wow amazing efforts!  very interesting results. i don't have cherilata yet but i just purchased 20 annona montana seeds on ebay.  have you tried using it?  seems closely related to soursop.  the montana fruit doesn't taste as good but it's more cold tolerant.  i'd like to inarch montana and soursop seedlings and eventually hybridize them.  seems like it's already been done...

Yes I have two Israelite ( annona muricata x montana ) Mossad Uzi aka mountain soursop strains developed by a retired Mossad hence the cultivars name; Mountain soursop often despite by the fruit connoisseur collectors but soon to be love in colder part of the near sub tropic if my breeding program stabilize it in five years, I predict.  I have also locate a rare pineapple flavor mountain soursop two months ago on a business in Papua New Guinea Region, luckily five germinate so far out of 50 from the cannibal highland. 

What is amazed to me is why superior strains of mountain soursop annona muricata are not selected for thousand of years for superior cultivars ( as a plant much superior in its cold resistant to freeze & disease)??? My twenty years quest was wasted in its common homeland; all 10 superior varieties have come far away from its homeland in former war-zone like Middle East and Southeast Asia develop & selected by professional assassin & former cannibal headhunter???  What a shame for a plant that need more love than hate, more attention to development is call for in breeding & selection in coming years.  I am tire of loosing my award winning whitman fiberless & countless superior A. Muricata to Florida countless freeze that kill my joy.  I embark on a quest to find the perfect A. Glabra pond apple, the perfect dwarf coconuts, the perfect A. Montana to replace all my A. Muricata.  A. montana is a very prolific producer, but tree can be quite massive if not mantain; its practically disease resistant & newer selected strains are producing fruit that will soon rival other esteem Annonas by me & a few fruit fanatic brothers in arms in North West Florida.

Seanny

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2023, 04:32:15 PM »
I don’t have any mountain soursop.

I have pond apple seedlings.
They drop leaves after cold wind, similar to soursop.
I’ll graft soursop to them in May to test.

Epiphyte

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2023, 11:27:27 AM »
if the montana seeds i ordered germinate, and you're interested, perhaps we could do a trade.  or maybe we could just split the seeds?  they were only a total of $15.  in this youtube video har said that he's had a montana with a rollinia/annona deliciosa grafted on it for 20 years.  do you have deliciosa?  i have a 1' or 2' seedling growing well indoors that i bought last fall.  i'm hoping that the seeds came from huertasurbanas, which would mean that they are originally from misiones argentina.  in theory we should have no problem growing anything from that area outdoors here, at least in terms of temperature.  my deliciosa seedling was in a greenhouse when i bought it so it wouldn't have had enough time to acclimate.

i'd like to inarch all 3 annonas...deliciosa, montana and muricata.  well, i guess i could combine deliciosa and montana, which i would then combine to the already combined cherimoya and muriacta seedlings that i shared a pic of. 

Seanny

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2023, 06:49:12 PM »
4 pond apple seedlings died from winter.
They are no good here.

Epiphyte

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Re: optimal pot riddle
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2023, 01:43:41 AM »
that's too bad about the pond apple seedlings.  in their defense though this winter has been exceptionally long.  i'm extra appreciative of my 2 small greenhouses.  the larger one has these guys in it...



today i removed their tape.  i was worried that i was doing so prematurely but nope.  they had fused together really well, which motivated me to conjoin my larger luc's garcinia and pacuri.  the procedure was especially challenging because i had just enough experience with bud grafting that i tried to save every bud that i removed.  so i ended up leaving the main stems and extracted buds exposed for longer than i would have preferred.  hopefully it helped to keep the buds on damp paper towels in zip locks.

i put one of the luc buds onto the conjoined garcinia in the pic.  the rest went onto achachas.

in terms of annonas, the cherimoya is outgrowing the soursop it is conjoined with.  how much, if any, of the cherimoya's energy is going into the soursop?