Temperate Fruit & Orchards > Temperate Fruit Discussion

Persimmon sapote hybrid

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Rollip:
Probably true about the diploidyness, I'll poke around a bit more and see what I can find.
It's kind of interesting that the intricata fruit morphology looks more persimmony than sapotish to use scientific terms.

sc4001992:
I have read of someone in SoCal that has successfully grafted black sapote to kaki. I have a large kaki rootstock tree that is a vigorous grower so I will try to graft some black sapote the year and let you see the results when my grafts grow out. I have a friend with a large black sapote tree so I can get my scion wood anytime I have time to do this experiment for you. Also, if it works then I won't need to wait for my seedling black sapote to become a tree and how fruits. My kaki rootstock has been in ground for over 30 years so the graft should get fruits in 2 years.

Professor Porcupine:
Amazing Discussions! Crossing Orange Persimmons with Black Sapote (Or Texas Persimmon) is one of my Projects. I hope to callaborate & combine our Research & efforts to make it happen!

@drymifolia Fantastic Find on that Phylogenic Tree! I think that's the most comprehensive Diospyros Phylogenic Tree I found, Thank you!

What suprised me about that Phylogenic Tree, some species appear in different spots on the phylogenic tree? Are some Diospyros polyphyletic or simply mis-identified specimens?
I noticed D. rhombifolia is sister to D. texana? What is an Orange Persimmon Group species doing sister with a Black Persimmon group species? :o

I know there exist 3 way inter-species hybrid in Ukraine (D. lotus x D. virginiana x D. kaki) which all belong to the Cold Hardy Orange Persimmon Clade. Now imagine if your Cross D. nigra x D. texana with that 3 species hybrid from Ukraine? I think the high plasticity of such very hybridized offspring are very plastid thus softening hybridization barriers. If a Orange Group & Black Group hybrid would be achieved, I think it makes sense to start with thoroughly hybridized offspring from both sides first.

Have you heard of Russian Plant Breeder Ivan Michurin? He was doing Mentor Grafting & Mentor Pollination to achieve incredible Wide Crosses like with many Intergeneric Rosaceae Hybrids (Sorbus x Aronia for example).
His simple methods of Mentor Grafting combined with Mentor Pollination really give me hope that it's possible.

Mentor Pollination : Mixing (Lots of) incompatible pollen with (lil bit of) compatible pollen makes ovary accept incompatible pollen, so as to not reject compatible pollen. Very useful in helping bypass pollen related hybridization barriers, this also results in creating Bridge species through hybridization. However to bypass F1 fertility issues, hybridized offspring will need to be introgressed with it's Parent species. Repeat Mentor Pollination with both parent species & their hybrid offspring until the incompatibility is disolved via strong genetic exchange bridges (Aka Introgression, when 2 species become 1).

For example, Cucurbita maxima x Cucurbita moschata often make sterile offspring F1 that can't pollinate it self or other C. maxima x C. moschata hybrids. Simply mixing both parent species pollen to pollinate the F1 Hybrid Offspring's ovary (& Vice Versa) solves this.

Diospyros virginiana x Diospyros kaki also often make sterile offspring with no seeds. I think mentor Pollination will dissolve any hybridization barriers.

Mentor Grafting : Grafting Young hybrid Tree/Seedling scion onto mature Trees (Rootstock) you want them to resemble, then pruning the scion so more rootstock sap flows thru it (& thus Horizotnally Transfering more of it's DNA). The Mentor/Rootstock's influence on the Scion is most strongest inside the seeds of Scion fruits (But Occasionally influences the scion too).
It should be noted, the younger & wider your Hybrid Seedling is, the more plastid it is (Aka it's hereditary power/influence is weaker) & thus the more receptive it is to the rootstocks influcence. Conversely the more older/mature the Mentor/Rootstock chosen, the greater influence it has on the scions offspring.

For example this effect was so strong that a 1 Year old hybrid Pear, grafted onto a 1 year old Seedling Lemon (Yes completely different Family) made pear leaves evergreen & Glossy. The other similar hybrid pear seedlings growing right next to it dropped their leaves.

Reciprocal Grafting : 2 young plants Swap Scions to help each other get use to their rootstock. Doing this helps soften/disolve some hybridization berriers before making crosses.
For example Wild Solanum lycopersicum x Solanum peruvianum crossed successfully after reciprocal grafting.

There are also other methods Ivan Michurin used but these were the ones I remembered & understood correctly.
I think combining all these methods could help make it possible to cross D. nigra x D. kaki.

What do y'all think?

drymifolia:

--- Quote from: Professor Porcupine on January 22, 2025, 08:37:44 PM ---
@drymifolia Fantastic Find on that Phylogenic Tree! I think that's the most comprehensive Diospyros Phylogenic Tree I found, Thank you!

What suprised me about that Phylogenic Tree, some species appear in different spots on the phylogenic tree? Are some Diospyros polyphyletic or simply mis-identified specimens?
I noticed D. rhombifolia is sister to D. texana? What is an Orange Persimmon Group species doing sister with a Black Persimmon group species? :o


--- End quote ---

As I said when I shared the link, it uses some potentially questionable statistical methods on genetic markers to build those phylogenetic trees, so they should be taken with a grain of salt rather than taken as gospel.

I don't think "Orange Group" and "Black Group" are meaningful terms, because there are some very distantly related Diospyros species that share fruit color, and some closely related ones that are different colors. There's a dark variant of D. virginiana that occasionally occurs in the northwestern part of the range, but I don't think anyone has proposed that it comes from hybridization with a dark species, it's just a mutation that has persisted a bit.

I have a bunch of specimens of texana and digyna but I'm still a few years away from them reaching a fruiting size, even the grafted ones, but I still plan to try that since they are at least both diploid. If you're hoping to cross species of different ploidy, you may have some challenges depending on the specific chromosome numbers involved.

Professor Porcupine:
I agree, Exact Phylogenic Tree positions can switch & hybridizations really makes the Phylogenic tree into a Phylogenic Web. I see phylogenic Trees as Guide lines, I pair them with what I know about which species can hybridize to see how strict the positions are.

I just don't know what to call the kaki, virginiana, lotus claude of Persimmons? All are cold Hardy, make Orangish fruits and have potential to cross. I'm glad there are other Persimmons, I've yet to begin scratching the surface of the *Diospyros* diversity.

OOH! Have you found any photos of the Dark Variant of D. virginiana? I've always thought the blue skin ones were just the older poor quality fruits left over in winter. Or are you talking about something totally different? If so please tell me more. If it's a Mutation that's awesome!

I was hoping Mentor Grafting & Mentor Pollination could help smooth out mis-matching ploidy issues.
Have you tried pruning & bending your branches sideways to shift your tree away from growth mode into fruit mode? Pruning & Grafting is also how I plan to speed run my trees into producing fruits (When I get land :'().

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