Author Topic: Supremo Grape Breeding  (Read 592 times)

1rainman

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Supremo Grape Breeding
« on: August 24, 2022, 02:33:15 PM »
Many years ago I noticed grapes growing in the woods in Florida. They actually were of decent size and tasted pretty good. Did somebody's back yard grape plant cross breed with a native? That was my first thought. I later found out these were entirely native grapes and the whole woods is covered with different species of grape here. Especially with muscadines they are literally weeds in Florida.

The best one is shuttleworthii- native to Florida only (not very cold tolerant because it blooms super early, which also minimizes the amount of cross breeding with other species). Somewhat small, but decent sized fruit. Dark red (burgundy) to light black in color. Excellent flavor, though slip skin and pulpy texture. Occasionally is a bit acidic depending on where it is at in the ripening stage (kind of gets acidic, then doesn't, gets acidic again, then less acidic)

Aestavalis has decent fruit, usually tiny in size here but some are decent sized. Some taste better than others. Sometimes has a bit of a weird aestavalisy flavor.

Muscadines are really variable. Some taste really good, some are slightly nasty but still edible, some are in the middle. Different from traditional scuppernogs- these are usually tiny berries, though some are a bit bigger, many have bunches here, and the flavor is a bit different. These south florida muscadines have been used a bit in breeding modern muscadine varieties, mainly for their bunching traits, though they can contribute thinner skin, or interesting flavors compared to traditional scuppernog.

I try to grow various domesticated grapes here and they all die from disease. Turns out florida with its high humidity and lack of winter has the most disease pressure for grapes in the country. I was fascinated with crossing shuttleworthii. Muscadines are a whole other species and too much for me to focus on- I have my hand's full with regular grapes.

I like to eat shuttleworthii berries when I can find them, and the plant itself has beautiful leaves. It's almost worth cultivating but I feel it needs to be crossed to get something a little more worth growing.

After trialing all kinds of varieties, cuttings and seeds, I finally got some seeds that produced viable plants for south florida. These were seedlings of Z86 (zehnder). This plant is about 6% muscadine, 8% aestavalis and about 85% vinifera. So the seedlings are about 3% muscadine- though there are no visible muscadine characteristics in fruit or leaves other than high disease resistance. Z86 is half cabernat suavignon. There are related varieties like z89 which is half ruby cabernet (known as Cabernet Zehn). I'm trying to get seeds of that.

I also tried Tari's Burgundy which seems to be half shuttleworthii, half vinifera, which did ok but had some disease and accidentally died- though it may be viable with some effort.

I got open pollinated z86 seeds the first year- mostly pollinated by D370 (dunstan 370). Dunstan has bred some amazing grapes. The first batch I lost a lot to animals eating the seedlings. Out of 30 I ended up with one winner. I had several that survived, but had some kind of disease susceptibility or not vigorous enough or whatever so I got rid of it.

z86 x D370 gave me fruit this year. The berries were slightly small, but decent size. About the same size as Concord or Shuttleworthii berries. Fruit was green (oddly) with a bit of a black tinge, though both parents were black grapes. Texture was not crisp, but melted in the mouth- very nice texture, much better than wild grapes, kind of half way between wild and a table grape. Skin did not slip off. Flavor tasted like a normal store grape. Bunch size was maybe not as big as a vinifera (store grape) but bigger than wild- pretty nice size bunches.

The plant takes a little black rot, and very slight rust, but overall pretty disease resistant and vigorous- though did not grow well in sand- I have them in big pots with potting soil and mulch now, though adding a small amount of sand seems to help them.

I have a z86 x taris selected out of about 21 seeds. Very fast growing- again slight blackrot, somewhat suceptible to rust. This one rust is a bit of a problem- but rust only occurs in tropical coastal areas so it should grow well in most places. Did not go dormat due to lack of hard freeze so no berries. The d370 x z86 goes dormat without any real winter, and my other taris x z86 also went dormat but it doesn't grow much in the heat so is much smaller.

I have a really fast growing healthy z86 x BD5-117 (stover x daytona) selected out of about 25 seeds. Again some really slight disease but overall healthy.

I have a possible shuttleworthii x seyval blanc but it looks like a shuttleworthii other than leaves being a bit thinner and seems somewhat sucpetible to rust in a way that shuttleworthii typically is not. I am always on the fence as to whether this is a pure wild grape or an actual cross. Will have to wait to get berries. I neglected it and planted it in the garbage sand and rock soil thinking it was a purely wild grape, but then my doubts started to arrise. I couldn't get any cuttings to root so its stuck there. It doesn't seem as drough tolerant as shuttleworthii, and struggles during the dry season, but seems to have no problem being completely underwater (which shuttleworthii tolerates as well).

I also have a possible seyval blanc or chambourcin x aestavalis. Again it seems strangely suceptible to rust, but otherwise looks exactly like an aestavalis. So again, I'm not sure if this is an actual cross or not. The aestavalis also planted in the garbage soil. It grows extremely fast.

Another mentionable is Lake Emerald. It has some of the best tasting grapes I have tried, and is highly disease resistant, though never produced grapes for me in south florida- did produce a lot in ohio. Seems not as well adapted to the heat, but very cold tolerant (strange because one parent is aestavalis native to florida).

And Suwannee is dong pretty well for me- fast growing, some small amount of disease but overall not too bad.

I have tried almost everything- pure vinifera like Thomson seedless- dead pretty quickly. Blanc Du Boise- did well in ohio other than leaves looking like swiss cheese from black rot, but after a few years, the winter got too cold for it and it died, though made it through several winters. In Florida it rotted and died pretty quickly from disease. Orlando Seedless- grew pretty fast for a while, then got covered in rust fungus pretty quickly. Concord- pretty disease resistant, but didn't do well in the Florida heat and didn't grow much. Ultimately a goner. Not pierce tolerant anyway (which is a disease issue in the south).

Caribe did pretty well but I neglected it and it dried out and died when I left in a pot and went up north. Ca8-15 (shuttleworthii x villard blanc) did pretty well but a late freeze killed it. Still trying to get this one again.


CarolinaZone

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Re: Supremo Grape Breeding
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2022, 03:48:46 PM »
Ok. I'm ready. When you gonna share ;D
I never had shuttlesworthi. How does it differ from let's say a European grape? Muscadines are endemic here but suffer from drought sometimes. I assume non of the varieties you listed have any drought tolerance.

Central Floridave

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Re: Supremo Grape Breeding
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2022, 04:45:21 PM »
"I also tried Tari's Burgundy"

I've been growing this one for about ten years or more (I forget the timeline).  I get about ten pounds of fruit a year off the vines.  This summer I got so many I couldn't eat them all and they turned into raisons hanging on the vine.  They tasted great. They have seeds but I chew them up as well. 

This past winter was the first time I didn't cut back the old growth from the previous growing season as I usually do the recommended cutting back to the main stalk. I got a record number of fruit all the way to the end of the vines.  Probably about 20 or 30 feet away from the main stalk.  What is your advice on hedging back the vine when dormant?   

I fertilized with just wood ash from the fire pit and some chelated iron.

For fungi disease it usually doesn't attack the vine until after the fruit are gone and the late season rainy season kicks in.  Thus, it doesn't matter. 

That is some kind of breeding you are doing, good luck to you!

K-Rimes

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Re: Supremo Grape Breeding
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2022, 05:26:15 PM »
Interesting project! How close are grape seedlings to their parent usually?

1rainman

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Re: Supremo Grape Breeding
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2022, 08:14:59 PM »
Carolina zone- where are you located? Florida has a dry season, winter and spring so short periods of drought and a rainy swamp season. Shuttleworthi and the munsonia muscadines native here are drought tolerant to an extent. Aestavalis a bit less so but somewhat. When they get huge their tap root can hit moist soil deep in the ground but they are drought tolerant before that.

Wild grapes are about the same as the parent. Cultivated grapes they say the seedlings aren't true to seed but close. So a merlot seed probably won't be as good as a pure merlot but who knows.

Hybrids have a lot of variation. I plant 30 seeds maybe one or two is close to a native in toughness. The berries seem similar to parents more than I expected.

Wild pollen will yield about 70% males, 30% females give or take. Hermaphrodite pollen about 50% female, 50% hermaphrodite. Though very rarely like way less than 1% could be male. Or could be technically hermaphrodite but so little pollen or sterile pollen that it's basically female. A hermaphrodite the seeds are like 99.9% self pollinated and low vigor due to inbreeding but some of them can be viable to grow just a little slower growing. Some are really weak.

Mine basically grow wild not really pruning them .

Shuttleworthi tastes similar to a store grape at most stages. But with a slight flavor of its own. Better than most store grapes. Taste different green than red. Green taste citrus like sprite soda. Somewhat acidic but tolerable. Crisp table grape texture. Just too acidic to eat a lot but taste great. Red tastes different like a red grape best way to describe it but skin pops right off. Skin taste different than pulp. Pulpy. Texture sucks. Seeds hard to separate from pulp. Flavor is great but texture sucks.

Over ripe skin gets leathery starts to have a slight musk similar to Concord this is when they are almost raisens. Kind of similar to native American grapes but more similar to European grapes than any I've tried.

Almost like scuppernong texture with a store grape taste but better than most store graped. Very slight similarity to scuppernong or other native grapes but not much. Makes a nasty wine chemistry is off but when crossed with a good wine grape the hybrids (like taris burgundy) almost always make good wine.

Limiting factor is it blooms extremely early so you have to save pollen from the previous year to cross pollinate it. This also limits it's range to Florida. Even stover which is 1/4 shuttleworthi can have cold issues even in Georgia and relatively southern areas. Also puts out long skinny canes a little too skinny. Hard to root from cuttings like most natives. Taris roots easily though as does stover.

One of the most disease resistant too. Tolerated wet roots and will grow in swamps unlike most grapes though a few like rupestris are similar. Mostly found in south Florida. It's related to the Texas mustang grape which looks similar but has black grapes instead of dark red, is more acidic and not as good though more cold tolerant. Leaves are similar but shuttleworthi has better looking leaves too. Thick glossy almost bluish leaf with silver wool like hair underneath that sometimes turns rust colored. Taris looks very shuttleworthi like but improved a bit through cross breeding.

1rainman

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Re: Supremo Grape Breeding
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2022, 10:45:43 PM »
I should mention issues with wild grapes why I would rather hybridize them.

In the flavor department native grapes when. There's all kinds of interesting flavors, some good some bad. Mostly I prefer native grapes.

But bunch size is an issue. Either you get a bunch of tiny grapes or a few normal size grapes. Wild vines will be covered in grapes but the individual bunch weight is really low. Most have tiny grapes that are all seed and skin. Only a few like shuttleworthi are decent size. Though there are rare exceptions with large grapes but the bunch weight always sucks.

There is some variation but generally they don't store well. You pick them and within a day or two the grapes shrivel up. Store grapes stay good for about a month after being picked, maybe more. This can transfer to juice or wine that tends to oxidize and go bad.

And the poor texture.

A hybrid might have a bunch smaller than store grapes ( which has been bred for absurdly large bunches) but it's respectable. And they may not store or ship as well as a domesticed variety but if they store half way well and stay good for a week it's an improvement and so on.

My breeding has been focused on toughness, but most of my z86 crosses are 65% or more vinifera (domesticated grape) and have good fruit quality. Because they are already complex hybrids. I would like to cross more with shuttleworthi such as taris ca8-15 and so on. I think 1/4 shuttleworthi would be good. There needs to be other things in the mix to improve cold tolerance and such but I'm a fan of it's flavor, dark red color, and beautiful foliage. Not to mention it's toughness. Rupestris also is a native to the middle of the US and has great qualities. Bushy growth, easily roots from cuttings, tolerates wet soil, and decent berries for a wild grape. It was used a lot in the old french hybrids like seyval Blanc. Muscadine hybrids are also of interest.

1rainman

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Re: Supremo Grape Breeding
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2022, 02:54:05 PM »
I found this video on youtube. This is north Florida- a little different collection of grapes than where I'm at in South Florida. No shuttleworthii, and the Muscadines are larger up there but don't taste as good (though it really varies from plant to plant). Though that was pretty nice he found one of good size with three on a bunch.

The tiny grapes he claims are a hybrid of muscadines and domestic grape is actually vitis aestavalis. They are exactly the same down here- big bunches of tiny grapes. Though there are some with decent sized grapes on them, especially in the north. There are different sub-species of aestavalis that all seem to freely hybridize with each other so a lot of variation in that one. For whatever reason, even though the whole place is covered in muscadines they change a bit in character as you go north. Though again there's variation in individual plants- they all interbreed with each other easily.

Though I have never seen a muscadine cross with a non-muscadine in the wild. I have on rare occasion found a shuttleworthii and aestavalis cross. It's mainly just different bloom time and different ripening time that seperates those two. Though theoretically possible- it takes a huge effort for a muscadine to cross with a normal grape. Then usually those crosses are sterile- so breeders have done it before but I have not seen it in the wild.

But this is pretty much what I do- wild grapes here are pretty good, other than sometimes high acidity, or goeey texture, tiny size. Aestavalis tends to ripen really late like september or october. Shuttleworthii late July or August. Muscadine ripen year round, though mostly in the fall. They will grow as an ever bearing grape here if it doesn't freeze. Florida has the best tasting wild grapes of anywhere I have been. Most of the rest of the country are primarily bitter nasty wild grapes, with a few exceptions.

Aestavalis is related to lubrusca but usually without the foxy musk so they look similar to "fox" grapes but technically are not. Fox grapes grow in the north.

Wild life love to eat grapes but there's so many of them everywhere that the wild life get burned out on them and usually leave a lot of them.

Shuttleworthii is the best one but as a general rule, all of the wild grapes tend to be decent eating in Florida. Just make sure its actually a grape as non-grape berries can be poisonous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mc0tk3cDZA

Here's a guy in Texas with mustang grapes. The leaves and grapes look similar to shuttleworthii though some slight differences. It's the closest relation to shuttleworthii. He identifies one as a muscadine and one as a mustang, when actually both branches he pointed to are mustang, probably the same plant. Though it is true Mustang and shuttleworthii will grow almost weed-like but they aren't as aggressive or vigorous as muscadine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utiAwTmrAw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjx_Rjswu4Y

The biggest difference with shuttleworthii is the leaf is thicker, not as floppy- super thick leaf, though the hybrids the leaf gets a lot thinner (like taris burgundy) and the berries are very dark red, and will get kind of light black or reddish black when over ripe, but not real dark- most of the time red. Whereas mustang is a black/purple color. Same size and appearance. Shuttleworthii grapes are a little better tasting, but similar in most ways as this is a close relative. Mustang are usually not good for fresh eating, though occasionally you can find an ok vine. They usually have high acidity and not real sweet, so you have to water it down and add sugar to make wine, or add sugar and stuff for jellies.

Shuttleworthii has high sugar for a wild grape, tastes pretty good, only occasionally high acid, a lot of times good acidity. But the hybrids are a lot better and of more interest. The goal: let's get something that grows really easily like a wild vine, but better quality fruit than wild.

That's essentially what concord is. It's actually only 75% lubrusca and 25% european (domestic) grape which gives it better qualities, like self fertile, larger berries than wild, better juice etc.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 03:08:28 PM by 1rainman »