Author Topic: New batch of tropical grapes  (Read 878 times)

1rainman

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New batch of tropical grapes
« on: December 11, 2022, 06:42:28 PM »
I just germinated new grape seeds to add to my breeding project. The goal is something hardy like a native spray free but better fruit than wild.

(Z86 x d370) x (male aestavalis x shuttleworthii) should be about the same as a wild grape but better berries. 2/3 will be male unfortunately.

I think a bunch of cab zehn (z89) seeds sprouted unless I mixed that pot up with the above. I got can zehn open pollinated seeds this year hopefully I'll get some to sprout and survive.

Z86 x bd (stover x Daytona) I sprouted 25 or so last year got one outstanding survivor that's highly vigorous and disease resistant. Sold one on here that was mediocre. Trying to root it. But I used about 20 more seeds left over from last year and they came up. Besides being disease resistant and good fruit quality bd passes on pierce tolerance well (about 2/3 when crossed with a totally non resistant variety) so it's good to have in the mix.

Z86 and z89 are 6% muscadine with a mix of other natives and vinifers but super rare to cross that species barrier by bob zehnder and Dunstan. Also top level combination of disease resistance and berry quality. Cab zehn wine is almost identical to cab Sauvignon without any native flavors. Z86 has only a faint trace of native flavors also similar to cab Sauvignon.

Z86 is half cab Sauvignon and z89/cab zehn is half ruby Cabernet. Been trying to get cab zehn seeds for a while.

Aestavalis berries are not bad though around here tiny. A bit acidic. Shuttleworthii berries are larger and really good tasting though sometimes acidic sometimes not but aestavalis contributes to late ripening and cold hardiness. Shuttleworthii ripens so early it doesn't grow outside of Florida. Though the cross was a coincidence. My female plant had no pollinator and this one bloomed the same time as it. Aestavalis here blooms really late and ripens late it's more native to the south like Georgia or something this is the southern limit of it's range. Shuttleworthii is more tropical and at home in the swamps but they overlap here.

I'll see what I have later in the year to put up here. I have Suwannee too which has good disease resistance and good berries though slightly less tough than zehnder pretty similar though Suwannee has big berries.

1rainman

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Re: New batch of tropical grapes
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2022, 06:53:28 PM »
Which I'll add the z86 x Dunstan 370 is almost as disease resistant as a native like 98% there though not as vigorous. Green berries are slightly better than the average store grape though a bit small. Berries about the same size as concord or shuttleworthii. Though bunch weight better than wild. Not as crisp melty texture. Berries split though which wild ones don't. Split mainly from too much rain here. Low acidity so the cross should produce good berries. The main issue with the wild stuff besides small bunch weight or pulpy texture is acidity.

The native grapes here flavor wise taste better than store grapes and better than concord in my opinion better than scuppernong.

pagnr

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Re: New batch of tropical grapes
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2022, 07:58:59 PM »
How do you go with grape seedlings in the first winter. ? They go dormant here. Do you lose small seedlings at that stage ? 
I keep them under protection nowadays, as I think some didn't come back from the leaf drop.
Mainly seeds of Kyoho and close relatives.

1rainman

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Re: New batch of tropical grapes
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2022, 04:48:01 AM »
Many seedlings are small and not vigorous. This is often due to hybrids their genes mix poorly or they are not well adapted to the area. Many grapes are not vigorous in Florida heat. Others get disease. But my better ones are a huge plant after one year. Due to lack of winter some don't go dormat.

I tried all kinds of varieties and seeds. Most got disease or didn't do well until I got these zehnder seeds. Kyoho comes from Missouri native aestavalis (some Asian grapes have this) lubrisca, vinifers. Not really adapted to the south. I grow a huge amount of seeds (20-30 at a time) only a small number make it. With native grapes not hybrids of course all of them will be adapted though some seeds might not come up or plants get eaten by an animal etc.

There's virtually no winter here in south Florida. I have to refrigerate seeds to get enough cold on them to germinate. I think my cab zehn seeds didn't get enough cold most or all haven't come up I'm not sure. I guess I've been selectively breeding stuff that germinated with minimal winters as grape seeds need 3 months of cold before germinating.

The stuff that came up now if it freezes I'll have to protect it but it might not even freeze. And they are so tough they will keep growing through 33 degree temps generally. This is true of basically all native American grapes. European vinifers gets leaf damage in the 40s. Hybrids are in between but closer to the American side. My stuff seems to resist cold pretty well.

You have cold sensitive stuff like shuttleworthii it's mainly due to early blooming and can get damaged by a late freeze but the leaves themselves generally not damaged until it hits freezing.

Our lows are in the 50s or 60s now.

Some tropical ones or vinifera will go dormant with practically no winter. It figures out it's winter without a freeze. But the seedlings germinating now won't do that . They will only go dormant or die if it freezes.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 04:51:33 AM by 1rainman »

1rainman

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Re: New batch of tropical grapes
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2022, 06:14:36 PM »
I'll be getting rid of some. I have a z86 x bd from last year that has beautiful leaves but hasn't been real vigorous. It has a bit more disease than some but pretty hardy. As a whole bd crosses are not as disease resistant as taris burgundy or d370.

FloridaManDan

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Re: New batch of tropical grapes
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2022, 12:14:07 PM »
Love to see how much research you've done, I wish I had more space to grow vines and test crossbreeds. I've only had success with FL Purple Muscadine and Brown Muscadine (Florida Fry>Scuppernog). Ill send you a PM if youre planning to get rid of some.

1rainman

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Re: New batch of tropical grapes
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2022, 07:13:14 PM »
I have stuff that will do well in Florida though some occasional spray will be needed in some more tropical areas. The goal is no spray. Shuttleworthii is a good tasting native grape that grows well in south Florida. Shuttleworthii and muscadine hybrids have a lot of potential. Aestavalis grows wild here too but somewhat less tough and often tiny berries.

Something like razzmatazz which is half muscadine will do well. Taris burgundy does well with a little spray (half shuttleworthii) though I have taris burgundy crosses that are tougher than taris but still not at the no spray level. At least not in Florida probably elsewhere it could. Dunstans dream is supposed to do well in Florida it's 3% muscadine and mixed with everything else.

Dunstan and zehnder both dead now spent a lifetime breeding southern grapes and did amazing work. So I'm starting with their best stuff. Otherwise it would take 50 years to make this much progress breeding grapes.