Author Topic: Planting in the Florida Keys  (Read 1212 times)

elouicious

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Planting in the Florida Keys
« on: February 01, 2022, 12:17:03 PM »
Hey all-

I have finally located the deedwork to some old property in the Keys and, of course, immediately started to think about what could be planted there-

The zone according to the USDA is 11b which is great but I know that this comes with some particular problems-

the first I can think of is that there currently is no water or electric lines to the property- this is clearly a very long term project but I would like to start with maybe planting some things that will be pretty resilient and not need much care of their own for the first couple years before a reliable watering system can be set up.

Ideally I would not like to build much habitation on there but just have a small semi-automated system to take care of things-

My first idea would be to create a perimeter with something that could provide a windbreak against storms (possibly and Artocarpus spp. or even Durio?, Carapa guianensis if it can be sourced) and plan a small plot within that perimeter

My concerns without ever having lived there are-

Storms
High and Salty Water Table
Lack of easy maintenance

Some species that I have selected that might grow there well would be

Shorter Term-
Aloe spp. - digigarden
Ananas cosomus - digigarden
Annona glabra (grafting stock)
Annona muricata - Bush2Beach
Capparis spp. - digigarden
Carissa spp. - digigarden
Chrysobalanus icaco - digigarden
Coccolobo uvifera - pineislander
Cocos nucifera - nullzero
Cordia sebestena - digigarden
Cecropia peltata
Dovyalis caffra
Dovyalis longispina
Inga spp.
Manilkara bidentata
Manilkara zapota - nullzero
Melicoccus bijugatus
Myrciathnes fragrans - digigarden
Opuntia spp. - digigarden
Pandanus tectorius
Passiflora spp. - roblack
Portulaca spp. - digigarden
Pouteria sapota
Rosa rugosa - digigarden
Syzygium paniculatum
Terminalia spp. - digigarden *Invasive Potential


Longer Term-
Annona coriacea
Annona leibmanniana
Annona salzmanii
Annona x atemoya
Butia capitata - digigarden
Casimiroa edulis - digigarden
Citrus spp. - digigarden
Cola spp. (once shady spots are identified)
Diospyros nigra - digigarden
Eugenia itaguahiensis
Ficus carica - digigarden
Garcinia livingstonei
Hibiscus spp - digigarden
Lepisanthes fruticosa
Magnifera indica - digigarden
Malvaviscus arboreus - digigarden
Malpighia glabra
Mammea americana - digigarden
Pithecellobium dulce - digigarden
Phoenix dactylifera - digigarden
Pometia pinnata
Psidium spp. - digigarden
Rheedia aristata
Sandoricum koetjape
Stelechocarpus burahol
Theobroma spp. (once shaded areas are identified)
Treculia africana

Please let me know what you think-

I will be using Neil Logans fabulous agroforestryx tool to plan the plot for planting





« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 01:45:18 PM by elouicious »

nullzero

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2022, 12:38:01 PM »
Did not see Sapodilla on the list or Coconut. Heat and dry periods with poor soil and high salt water in the ground water are going to be challenges to overcome.

A windbreak is going to help with transpiration from the leaves which will be a big challenge with intense sun, warm temps, low organic content soil, and winds most the year.

Dovyalis will do well because its adapted to drought and semi.arid conditions. Things like Pometia pinnata and Cola sp. will be a challenge.

Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

roblack

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2022, 01:22:35 PM »
Buttonwood is a native plant that tolerates salt and could form a nice wind break, along with mangrove.

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2022, 01:43:32 PM »
Did not see Sapodilla on the list or Coconut. Heat and dry periods with poor soil and high salt water in the ground water are going to be challenges to overcome.

A windbreak is going to help with transpiration from the leaves which will be a big challenge with intense sun, warm temps, low organic content soil, and winds most the year.

Dovyalis will do well because its adapted to drought and semi.arid conditions. Things like Pometia pinnata and Cola sp. will be a challenge.

Great Catch!

Manilkara zapota and Cocos nucifera added

To clarify, I am not planning on planting all of these at the jump,

I would first plant the trees to create the border, amend the planting area as much as possible with local mulch, and introduce species over the years

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2022, 01:44:43 PM »
Buttonwood is a native plant that tolerates salt and could form a nice wind break, along with mangrove.

Is buttonwood edible? I have not been to the property yet but I would certainly leave any native mangrove and maybe even plant some more to prevent erosion etc

roblack

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2022, 01:58:42 PM »
I don't think it (buttonwood) is edible. I grow passion vines on mine, thus cheating and making it sort of edible.

johnb51

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2022, 01:59:12 PM »
Buttonwood is a native plant that tolerates salt and could form a nice wind break, along with mangrove.

Is buttonwood edible? I have not been to the property yet but I would certainly leave any native mangrove and maybe even plant some more to prevent erosion etc
There's nothing edible about buttonwood.  Mangrove is awesome.  How large is this property?  Does it have some high ground?
John

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2022, 03:32:39 PM »
All said and done it is 60+ acres, that is way too much to deal with for planting and I own it with several other members of my family though-

By my Google Maps satellite investigation there is some elevation but nothing too high and a quick topographical map seems to suggest there are areas as low as 10 feet above sea level, ranging up to 30 feet above

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2022, 03:34:10 PM »
I don't think it (buttonwood) is edible. I grow passion vines on mine, thus cheating and making it sort of edible.

I'd like to keep plants I have to buy to edible things if possible, but maybe I can find a spot with some natural growth of them and work from there. Passiflora will certainly be added to the list!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 03:35:58 PM by elouicious »

johnb51

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2022, 09:12:26 PM »
All said and done it is 60+ acres, that is way too much to deal with for planting and I own it with several other members of my family though-
By my Google Maps satellite investigation there is some elevation but nothing too high and a quick topographical map seems to suggest there are areas as low as 10 feet above sea level, ranging up to 30 feet above
60 acres in the Florida Keys?  Holy crap!  And up to 30 ft. above sea level?  That's mountainous for the Keys!  Enjoy the hell out of that property!  As far as fresh water, maybe you could set up some sort of cistern system (collecting rainwater).  Just a thought.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 09:16:03 PM by johnb51 »
John

pineislander

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2022, 07:40:59 AM »
For coastal windbreak Coconut and seagrape are the best I can think of. Very storm resistant and can use saline water. A friend of mine has harvested "wild" seedling sapodilla in the Keys which were thriving with no care. You could consider a rain water catchment gathering system. In the Virgin Islands they placed concrete catchments and cisterns for passive water collection. This could be as simple as placing individual catchments of some impermeable material around trees funneling water to the base of a single tree.
https://www.cardcow.com/357980/water-catchment-st-thomas-caribbean-islands/

fruitmonger

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2022, 08:24:15 AM »
I have a friend who's family owned a huge piece right across from Founders Park on the ocean side.

Completely theirs and totally untouched by them.

Plantation Point on the south and a developed piece (single family home) just north.

With the current zoning and conservation laws they could not do a single thing on the property....nothing.

No camping ...no clearing a drive......no anything

You could not even remove Brazilian pepper without risking huge fines.


They were even fined many thousands of dollars because someone on the south side cut down some mangrove to improve their ocean view from the backs of their homes.

It was clear that they did not do the cutting but the county was ready to put leans on the property to try to take it from them.

The county (Monroe) is imposing their "conservation effort" to the point that they are essentially taking your property or keeping anyone from doing anything at all with theirs if it is not already cleared/developed.

Plant mangroves?.....sounds like a nice thing to do and to encourage but if you have any intention to be able to reach the water on that side of your property ever again I would advise against that.

The county will approach you and ask if you want to "sell" them the land (for pennies) and enter it into the conservation program...if you decide against that get ready to have them watching it like a hawk to see how they can take it from you or make it so useless/frustrating that selling it to them will seem like the best/only deal you have.

Sorry to sound so negative but that is how it is down there.



 
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now." Chinese proverb

digigarden

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2022, 08:34:57 AM »
some plants from
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/occl/files/2013/08/001-salt-tolerance.pdf


Zone 1-high wind salt tolerance
Aloe
Capparis spp
Carissa spp
Coccoloba spp
Cocos nucifera
Cordia sebestena
Chrysobalanus icaco
Manilkara spp
noni
pandanus spp
Portulaca spp.
terminalia spp


Zone 2-medium-high tolerance
Black sapote
Butia capitata
Caimito
Ficus carica
Hibiscus spp
Grumichama
Malpighia spp
Malvaviscus arboreus
Mammea americana
Mango
Pithecellobium dulce
Guava
Syzygium spp
Mamey sapote
White sapote
limes
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 11:34:07 AM by digigarden »

dwfl

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2022, 10:05:49 AM »
60 acres is a lot of land in the keys! Might want to check that property elevation again as I believe the highest documented elevation in the keys is 18ft above sea level.

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2022, 10:25:44 AM »
All said and done it is 60+ acres, that is way too much to deal with for planting and I own it with several other members of my family though-
By my Google Maps satellite investigation there is some elevation but nothing too high and a quick topographical map seems to suggest there are areas as low as 10 feet above sea level, ranging up to 30 feet above
60 acres in the Florida Keys?  Holy crap!  And up to 30 ft. above sea level?  That's mountainous for the Keys!  Enjoy the hell out of that property!  As far as fresh water, maybe you could set up some sort of cistern system (collecting rainwater).  Just a thought.

Rainwater collection and maybe some drip lines to trees would be the first and maybe only thing set up on the property due to the lack of clarity around zoning mentioned below

For coastal windbreak Coconut and seagrape are the best I can think of. Very storm resistant and can use saline water. A friend of mine has harvested "wild" seedling sapodilla in the Keys which were thriving with no care. You could consider a rain water catchment gathering system. In the Virgin Islands they placed concrete catchments and cisterns for passive water collection. This could be as simple as placing individual catchments of some impermeable material around trees funneling water to the base of a single tree.
https://www.cardcow.com/357980/water-catchment-st-thomas-caribbean-islands/

That sounds like exactly the kind of tech needed here! I was hoping you'd show up pineislander haha Coccolobo uvifera added

I have a friend who's family owned a huge piece right across from Founders Park on the ocean side.

Completely theirs and totally untouched by them.

Plantation Point on the south and a developed piece (single family home) just north.

With the current zoning and conservation laws they could not do a single thing on the property....nothing.

No camping ...no clearing a drive......no anything

You could not even remove Brazilian pepper without risking huge fines.


They were even fined many thousands of dollars because someone on the south side cut down some mangrove to improve their ocean view from the backs of their homes.

It was clear that they did not do the cutting but the county was ready to put leans on the property to try to take it from them.

The county (Monroe) is imposing their "conservation effort" to the point that they are essentially taking your property or keeping anyone from doing anything at all with theirs if it is not already cleared/developed.

Plant mangroves?.....sounds like a nice thing to do and to encourage but if you have any intention to be able to reach the water on that side of your property ever again I would advise against that.

The county will approach you and ask if you want to "sell" them the land (for pennies) and enter it into the conservation program...if you decide against that get ready to have them watching it like a hawk to see how they can take it from you or make it so useless/frustrating that selling it to them will seem like the best/only deal you have.

Sorry to sound so negative but that is how it is down there.

Maybe we can connect via PM- the zoning does appear to be an issue for at least part of the property- taxes are low and paid so we wont be selling any of it any time soon. It appears they are updating the land zoning (FLUM) and there may be increased flexibility with the changed zoning

some plants from
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/occl/files/2013/08/001-salt-tolerance.pdf


Zone 1-high wind salt tolerance
Aloe
Capparis spp
Carissa spp
Cocos nucifera
Cordia sebestena
Chrysobalanus icaco
Manilkara spp
noni
pandanus spp
Portulaca spp.
terminalia spp


Zone 2-medium-high tolerance
Black sapote
Butia capitata
Ficus carica
Hibiscus spp
Grumichama
Malpighia spp
Malvaviscus arboreus
Malpighia spp
Mammea americana
Mango
Pithecellobium dulce
Guava
Syzygium spp
Mamey sapote
White sapote
limes

What a great resource! thank you so much! updated the list


60 acres is a lot of land in the keys! Might want to check that property elevation again as I believe the highest documented elevation in the keys is 18ft above sea level.

That is a super rough topographical estimate- I also finally got the lot numbers today and I think the area I was looking at before was wrong


Galatians522

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2022, 11:23:31 PM »
I have seen wild tamarind trees in the keys. They would probably grow well.

digigarden

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2022, 02:46:58 AM »
opuntia prickly pear
Simpson's stopper(tolerant of salt and alkaline soils)
pineapple
date palm
ginkgo biloba(subtropical?)
pinus spp
loquat
cleopatra mandarin
diospyros spp
rosa rugosa
passiflora incarnata

cough(some plants might be invasive) cough (like terminalia) there said it xD

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2022, 11:23:54 AM »
I have seen wild tamarind trees in the keys. They would probably grow well.

Are the wild tamarind tasty? I would rather plant something like Pithecellobium dulce but in the zoning regulations it looks like you get bonus points for planting native growth so worth considering

opuntia prickly pear
Simpson's stopper(tolerant of salt and alkaline soils)
pineapple
date palm
ginkgo biloba(subtropical?)
pinus spp
loquat
cleopatra mandarin
diospyros spp
rosa rugosa
passiflora incarnata

cough(some plants might be invasive) cough (like terminalia) there said it xD

Thanks for more! list updated- another important thing to consider in invasive potential- Terminalia and Dovyalis may fall into this

Based on my zoning research it looks as though the rules for clearing are below

20 percent or 3,000 square feet, whichever is greater; but no greater than 7,500 square feet of upland native vegetation.
For parcels greater than 30,000 square feet, with the exception of parcels on Big Pine Key and No Name Key, clearing for one driveway of reasonable configuration up to 18 feet in width is permitted to provide reasonable access to the property for each parcel and shall be exempt from maximum clearing limit of 7,500 square feet. Clearing for a driveway shall be recommended by a County Biologist and approved by the Planning Director. The proposed driveway design shall minimize fragmentation, avoid specimen trees, and take the shortest reasonable route. In no case shall clearing, including the driveway, exceed 20 percent of the entire site.

All of this will need permits etc. so I am gonna try to get on the phone with the right people over at Monroe County


pineislander

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2022, 08:54:30 PM »
The wild tamarind isn't edible and isn't fleshy. The seed pod is similar to a mimosa tree seed pod, dry with very small seeds. It is a native tree, a legume and highly resistant to storms.
here is the botanical name:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysiloma_latisiliquum

Galatians522

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2022, 09:01:05 PM »
What I was trying to say was that I had seen Tamarind (the edible kind aka Tamarindus indica) growing wild (without being planted or getting any care) in the keys. Sory for the confusion.

pineislander

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2022, 10:07:42 PM »
If the idea of a catchment is still viable you might consider integrating an access road as the catchment area with drainage going to storage of some kind. Ideally this would happen on contour or just slightly off to capture water at the highest elevation. This would make your investment multi-functional.

The Lysiloma tamarind is a valuable timber wood but may not be harvestable due to conservation rules unless there is a workaround that. It might be a multigenerational project to think about timber in the Keys, though :-\
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 10:10:15 PM by pineislander »

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2022, 11:46:34 AM »
If the idea of a catchment is still viable you might consider integrating an access road as the catchment area with drainage going to storage of some kind. Ideally this would happen on contour or just slightly off to capture water at the highest elevation. This would make your investment multi-functional.

The Lysiloma tamarind is a valuable timber wood but may not be harvestable due to conservation rules unless there is a workaround that. It might be a multigenerational project to think about timber in the Keys, though :-\

I have reached out to the county to clear up some questions about construction and planting- Catchment should be an easy thing to set up but I am going to clarify first- It is already a multi-generational project, I am fortunate to have a couple of these in my life and I would love to set something up for the future generations. Not saying it should be a producing timber yard or orchard, but maybe just a nice place to vacation and sample fruit

Bush2Beach

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2022, 01:26:18 PM »
There is the feral 100+ year old Sapodilla planting intermixed in the forest on Big Pine Key if I remember correctly. I would think SourSop would handle pretty well too on your property.
Walked into it once from parking on the side of the road and wandering in no trail.
Tall Tall Sapodilla’s and little tiny Deer’s.

elouicious

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2022, 01:44:49 PM »
Interesting, I am also trying to tread lightly by asking about what I can plant- Some of the species that have been in the carribean for a very long time might sneak into an easier to plant classification-

Great call on Annona muricata, I didn't see anything about it being particularly tolerant of salt but given it grows all over the carribean I think it is a good contender-

Francis_Eric

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Re: Planting in the Florida Keys
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2022, 02:31:48 PM »
A question Where can you find Native seeds Miami Key West or Homestead?
Or fruit that is not invasive (will get some from Fruit & spice park as well_)

I am flying out there tomorrow God willing

I plan to spend a short time in Miami
Take the train/ bus to homestead visit Fruit , and spice park

I have stayed at a cheap Hotel, and near it guerilla grow a (large) avocado
there was a open field with a small section being tree's  already in the town  homestead going to check it out
, and some Osage orange (hedge apple not related to orange) maybe even sapodilla but do not remember if I planted  any.

I like your Idea of a Nice place to visit , and pick fruit as well that is why I want to as well
I plan on  walking (or biking ) the Krome path back from fruit, & spice park to Homestead hotel  again
 there is a part of woods over there to it is dense though , but plan to plant a few things as well.

I'd rather be cheap , but any of those Nurseries on Krome Ave any good which one there is so many?

Sorry do not want to highjack your topic but it is the same what would be a good source I am asking.



Elouicious
see here any of these Oaks sound good (I searched Oak  but you could search quercus


https://www.fnps.org/

what about Native persimmon (variation D virginiana  var.  moserii)
 Also I hear normal northern persimmons have chromosomes
2n=90 Kentucky 2n = 60 , and key west 2n = 30

So might be hard finding the one 2n=30 (or maybe it's easy )
(random link) explains listing variation  https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/diovir/all.html

If you can find these I'd want to buy them?



q




Andrews Wildlife Management Area
Andrews is unique as one of Florida’s largest remaining unaltered contiguous hardwood hammocks. Its 3000 acres include xeric and mesic vegetative communities in close proximity: upland hardwoods, mixed hardwoods/pine, and floodplain.

The upland hardwoods have a canopy and subcanopy of laurel oak, live oak, bluff oak, scrub live oak, pignut hickory, southern magnolia, sweet gum, persimmon, American holly, sparkleberry, and wild olive. The understory includes needle palm, coontie, American beautyberry, and saw palmetto.

In the mixed hardwoods/pine areas the canopy and subcanopy include Florida elm, ironwood, cabbage palm, fringe-tree, sweetgum, longleaf pine, live oak, scrub live oak, turkey oak, blue-jack oak. Ground cover is dominated by saw palmetto

An 800-acre hydric community lying adjacent to the mesic forest and bordering the Suwannee River adds to the unique and scenic character of the property. Three Florida Champion trees exist on the area. They include persimmon, Florida maple and bluff oak.

The canopy and subcanopy of the floodplain swamp include bald cypress, water tupelo, swamp tupelo, various ashes, willow, Florida elm, red maple, swamp chestnut oak, water hickory, and river birch.



q

(oh but this land management says to prescribe fire )
So I do not know if that is allowed by land owners or not or if you could get into trouble
https://myfwc.com/research/habitat/upland/hardwood/
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 02:34:36 PM by Francis_Eric »

 

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