Author Topic: California New Permanent Water Restrictions  (Read 2192 times)

countryboy1981

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
    • 8B Alabama
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2024, 08:02:35 PM »
Brother, practice critical thinking for a second. Do you know the amount of water needed for cattle feed? Unsustainable cattle management is a leading cause for drought. I don't eat meat, but also don't judge others for doing so. I think they play an essential role in our ecosystem. It's been documented that reviving wolf population has brought back to life dry rivers. Commercial cattle management is lowering our water table.

We need more cattle not less.  Government policies are moving to more crop growing and less cattle when it has been proven to lead to more water usage and desertification:

Quote
Livestock are not part of the solution but vital to reversing desertification. Let me explain. Desertification is the end result of the available rainfall becoming increasingly less effective. It is occurring to varying degrees in vast regions of the world where atmospheric humidity is erratic due to rainfall that is seasonal in nature. Throughout history people have associated desertification with overgrazing by too many livestock. This deep belief has assumed scientific validity and I too fell into that trap and published papers that today are embarrassing to me.

https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/reversing-desertification-with-livestock

Pretty interesting article from Allan Savory how not actively putting livestock on the land is causing more water to be used and desertificatoin:

https://blog.ted.com/fighting-the-growing-deserts-with-livestock-allan-savory-at-ted2013/

I was not talking about commercial grain/slop fed cattle.  Grains are not good for anybody including the cows and the environment.  Cows need to graze on grass, 100% grass-fed cattle.  This is how you restore the environment if you read the article.  Crop fields are poisoning the environment and pillaging the soil.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 08:04:29 PM by countryboy1981 »

K-Rimes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2345
    • Santa Barbara
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2024, 08:07:33 PM »
https://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/83/84/838417e7-bdad-40e6-bcaa-c3d80ccdcd71/beefgfnc2004.pdf

You need 10-12 acres of grass per cow. Where are we going to get this amount of land from? Don't get me wrong, love grass fed beef, ordered a 1/4 cow from a friend who works at a NorCal cattle ranch this very year and enjoying it.

The demand for beef far outstrips our resources and land to raise them, even grain / slop format.

Cowshwitz  ::)  ;D

Have you driven by it? It's dreadful. 110f, cows crushing each other to find shade, and a pervasive smell that will get through your AC system even on recirc. It's gnarly.

NateTheGreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • SF Bay Area, 9B
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2024, 08:15:37 PM »
And the cows they do let graze in the park lands cause a ton of erosion. But those are relatively few, and not what plebs like you or I are eating. They say they need them to keep down the grasses, but the grasses are invasives brought here to feed the cows, since livestock destroyed the vast majority of the native ones. What we really need is to do prescribed burns, but nobody wants those anywhere near their homes, and people are allowed to live in super remote areas.

Also, what we need is the dams to be removed from the Sierra foothills, so that sediment can once again flow to the central valley. It used to be a giant floodplain, which is why it became so fertile. Now large parts of it have had their water allotments cut, and become barren for miles, I believe with very high salinity. Desertification. Most new dam projects are off-line, like Los Vaqueros and Sites (future). I think they realized about 50 years ago that damming up every river in the mountains is not the way to go. Now things will just get worse until a major change is finally made.

More on-topic, Sacramento area has very cheap water. Under $1/unit in some suburbs of it. And in the bay area, there's land in Brentwood that's on an irrigation district fed by San Joaquin River water from a few miles away. Extremely cheap water, like 5 cents per unit IIRC.

spaugh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
    • San Diego County California
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2024, 08:52:19 PM »
"Have you driven by it? It's dreadful. 110f, cows crushing each other to find shade, and a pervasive smell that will get through your AC system even on recirc. It's gnarly."

Yeah I grew up in Stockton and have driven up and down the central valley many times.  I always hate passing by that place. 
Brad Spaugh

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2024, 09:39:42 PM »
Ranching is a key component to sound stewardship of land and water. Allan Savory is a wealth of information on the topic. I have some friends who use his grazing methods here in Florida. In an ecosystem like Florida that originally had woodland buffalo, cattle ranches are one of the most environmentally friendly uses. We have no feed lots in my county, by the way. Actually, the big ranches that are privately owned in my county have fewer invasivess than most of the state land. That is because the state does not have enough revenue to properly maintain all the land that it has purchased. Interestingly enough, the last few plants of the Scrub Jujube (an extremely rare Florida Native with only about 40 plants left) were found in a cow pasture on private property. The state actually thought it had gone extinct. Development and fire exclusion had taken their toll. The cows on the other hand had kept the brush down enough to keep those rare plants alive until we humans decided to go look for them again. However, as my grandfather was fond of saying, "Extremes are to be avoided." We don't need all cattle or no cattle. Those are extremes. Below is a link for Buck Island Ranch. Its run by an environmental preservation group. They use the cows as a management tool and also get some of their funding from the beef sales.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.archbold-station.org/buck-island-ranch/&ved=2ahUKEwjs1-mpqpuHAxU5ZzABHZl2ARAQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw35vRhCmHydXlpXAXdRINop

W.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
    • United States, Alabama, 7b
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2024, 10:24:23 PM »
I wonder how long before this thread is locked. ::)

Until it is, take a look at Oregon's controversial enforcement of its farming and water regulations and the predictable conflict that arose from their actions this Spring:
"As Oregon enforces its water use requirements, small farmers face the consequences" by Nathan Wilk, March 13, 2024, Oregon Public Broadcasting: https://www.opb.org/article/2024/03/13/oregon-enforces-water-rights-small-farmers-feel-consequences/
"Small Farms in Oregon Suffer as New CAFO Definitions Threaten Livelihoods" by Tyler James, March 25, 2024, That Oregon Life: https://thatoregonlife.com/2024/03/small-farms-in-oregon-suffer-as-new-cafo-definitions-threaten-livelihoods/
"Oregon’s agriculture department reverses ‘burdensome’ requirement on small dairy farms" by  Alejandro Figueroa, March 25, 2024, Oregon Public Broadcasting: https://www.opb.org/article/2024/03/25/oregon-department-of-agriculture-withdraws-requirements/

As Galatians522 said, quoting President Ronald Reagan, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help.'" They have been in a particularly helpful mood lately, so watch out.

NateTheGreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • SF Bay Area, 9B
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2024, 10:44:58 PM »
We don't need all cattle or no cattle. Those are extremes.
Does Antarctica need cattle? Does the Amazon? Do they need to cover every inch of this planet? Why is not wanting non-native herbivores an extreme position?

Humans and their livestock represent 96% of all mammals on earth in terms of biomass, whereas all wild mammals represent only 4% https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Distribution-of-earths-mammals.png
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 10:49:32 PM by NateTheGreat »

K-Rimes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2345
    • Santa Barbara
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2024, 12:53:34 AM »
I wonder how long before this thread is locked. ::)


Can’t be far off  ;D

countryboy1981

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
    • 8B Alabama
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2024, 06:57:43 AM »
We don't need all cattle or no cattle. Those are extremes.
Does Antarctica need cattle? Does the Amazon? Do they need to cover every inch of this planet? Why is not wanting non-native herbivores an extreme position?

Humans and their livestock represent 96% of all mammals on earth in terms of biomass, whereas all wild mammals represent only 4% https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Distribution-of-earths-mammals.png

The point is there needs to be more animals on the land, especially ruminents and a lot less crops.  The fields of crops without animals on the land are destroying the environment.

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2024, 07:39:50 AM »
We don't need all cattle or no cattle. Those are extremes.
Does Antarctica need cattle? Does the Amazon? Do they need to cover every inch of this planet? Why is not wanting non-native herbivores an extreme position?

Humans and their livestock represent 96% of all mammals on earth in terms of biomass, whereas all wild mammals represent only 4% https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Distribution-of-earths-mammals.png

Nate, that is a pretty neat chart. Thank you for sharing! I also enjoyed the sample budget for a cow calf operation that Kevin shared. I do want to make sure that I am respectful of you and your position. So, thank you also for stating how you feel about my comments. I don't think Antartica needs any more cows at this time.  ;D

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2024, 07:49:34 AM »
They have been in a particularly helpful mood lately, so watch out.

👍 😂

JakeFruit

  • Mod Emeritus
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
  • FL Gulf Coast Fruit Lover Spam Fighter
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2024, 10:15:08 AM »
I wonder how long before this thread is locked. ::)
It's been like +90% appropriate. If we could only keep our more fervent political/spiritual members from touching those particular 3rd rails...

gnappi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2053
    • South East Florida (U.S.A) Zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2024, 11:43:55 AM »
Y'know, I've said this before but it seems as if some parts of the country have a huge surplus of rainwater at times, most notably the southeast and it's either dumped in the ocean or gulf of Mexico.

Given the enormous public works projects in the past I would think that another one for recovering and piping this water for agricultural uses to the west would be a desirable way to put folks to work and save ground and other clear water for potable uses.

Yeah filtering debris, fish etc. would be an issue but C'mon the west has desperate need of water and dumping it makes no sense. 

Thoughts?

Regards,

   Gary

spaugh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
    • San Diego County California
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2024, 12:08:34 PM »
Y'know, I've said this before but it seems as if some parts of the country have a huge surplus of rainwater at times, most notably the southeast and it's either dumped in the ocean or gulf of Mexico.

Given the enormous public works projects in the past I would think that another one for recovering and piping this water for agricultural uses to the west would be a desirable way to put folks to work and save ground and other clear water for potable uses.

Yeah filtering debris, fish etc. would be an issue but C'mon the west has desperate need of water and dumping it makes no sense. 

Thoughts?

Probably cheaper to do desalination.  Or just drill some wells under the sierras. 
Brad Spaugh

K-Rimes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2345
    • Santa Barbara
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2024, 01:58:15 PM »
Y'know, I've said this before but it seems as if some parts of the country have a huge surplus of rainwater at times, most notably the southeast and it's either dumped in the ocean or gulf of Mexico.

Given the enormous public works projects in the past I would think that another one for recovering and piping this water for agricultural uses to the west would be a desirable way to put folks to work and save ground and other clear water for potable uses.

Yeah filtering debris, fish etc. would be an issue but C'mon the west has desperate need of water and dumping it makes no sense. 

Thoughts?

Probably cheaper to do desalination.  Or just drill some wells under the sierras.

Desal isn't cheap. It is power hungry. If we could get over it and build up some nuclear facilities, especially seawater cooled, we could be cooking though. Another issue that arises is where do you put all the salt after you've separated it.

"For example, the Carlsbad desalination plant in San Diego, California requires about 35 megawatts of electricity to operate. (By comparison, 1 megawatt is enough energy to operate a small town and 1,000 megawatts is enough to power a midsize city). The plant produces an average daily flow of 50 million gallons, only about 10% of the total drinking water needed by San Diego."

Wells are a finite resource. Once they're done, they're done, so I don't think siphoning off the Sierras will do it for us long term, decades sure, centuries no chance. A common issue is that as soon as we DO have or find water, we find new ways to use it. Case in point, all the lawn watering bans were lifted here in SB cause Cachuma got water and consumption is on the rise.

Agree with others in the thread though, army corp. of engineers and public projects should have been tackling this over the last few decades. It's amazing seeing the state irrigation channels from the 60's... What have we done on that scale since?

SanDiegoCherimoya

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • Vista, CA
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2024, 05:38:48 PM »
My thoughts are sustainable city design. First, study the floods that happened this year. That's the result of poor design and water harvesting management. India has great models we can replicate.

Secondly, cutting down the forest, replacing the forest floor with concrete, and harvesting all the water with our roadways just to dump it to the ocean... Need I say more?

I read that 70% of rainfall comes from transpiration from trees. You want more rain, remove the concrete and plant more trees.

Y'know, I've said this before but it seems as if some parts of the country have a huge surplus of rainwater at times, most notably the southeast and it's either dumped in the ocean or gulf of Mexico.

Given the enormous public works projects in the past I would think that another one for recovering and piping this water for agricultural uses to the west would be a desirable way to put folks to work and save ground and other clear water for potable uses.

Yeah filtering debris, fish etc. would be an issue but C'mon the west has desperate need of water and dumping it makes no sense. 

Thoughts?

SanDiegoCherimoya

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • Vista, CA
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2024, 05:43:40 PM »
Yeah your talking about me. Sucks you're a brainwash fool that can only articulate the mainstream narratives fed to you. The sower of seeds directs the plow.

I wonder how long before this thread is locked. ::)
It's been like +90% appropriate. If we could only keep our more fervent political/spiritual members from touching those particular 3rd rails...

xesoteryc

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • NorCal
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2024, 06:02:43 PM »
Yeah your talking about me. Sucks you're a brainwash fool that can only articulate the mainstream narratives fed to you. The sower of seeds directs the plow.

I wonder how long before this thread is locked. ::)
It's been like +90% appropriate. If we could only keep our more fervent political/spiritual members from touching those particular 3rd rails...

Hey! There are lots of us here who like hitting that third rail too, don't go taking all the credit

SanDiegoCherimoya

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • Vista, CA
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2024, 06:18:34 PM »
Sounds like we're cut from the same cloth

Yeah your talking about me. Sucks you're a brainwash fool that can only articulate the mainstream narratives fed to you. The sower of seeds directs the plow.

I wonder how long before this thread is locked. ::)
It's been like +90% appropriate. If we could only keep our more fervent political/spiritual members from touching those particular 3rd rails...

Hey! There are lots of us here who like hitting that third rail too, don't go taking all the credit
« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 01:19:33 AM by SanDiegoCherimoya »

JakeFruit

  • Mod Emeritus
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
  • FL Gulf Coast Fruit Lover Spam Fighter
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2024, 07:19:48 PM »
Yeah your talking about me. Sucks you're a brainwash fool that can only articulate the mainstream narratives fed to you. The sower of seeds directs the plow.
You're not special, neither am I. Save yourself and keep it a secret.

SanDiegoCherimoya

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • Vista, CA
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2024, 08:59:03 PM »
Good point. Also, I make a point to stand up to anonymous shit talkers.

Yeah your talking about me. Sucks you're a brainwash fool that can only articulate the mainstream narratives fed to you. The sower of seeds directs the plow.
You're not special, neither am I. Save yourself and keep it a secret.

Galatians522

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
    • Florida 9b
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2024, 09:47:30 PM »
So, what can tropical fruit enthusiasts in California do to work with this? What cultural practices can people recommend? What Xyriphytic (is that a word?) species make good fruit? What about rootstocks? Are there more drought resistant rootstocks Californians should be trying for Eugenias or Annonas or stone fruit? Speaking of which, 80% of the world's almonds come from California, so if someone could develop a better rootstock, there would be serious money in it.

Youngster

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14
    • Vista CA - USDA 10a
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2024, 10:54:02 PM »
Probably cheaper to do desalination.  Or just drill some wells under the sierras.

Ha Ha.
The Sierras are not as pure and perfect as all that.  Read about this crap Crystal Geyser was filtering from there Olancha operation and then dumping on site.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/crystal-geyser-company-admits-dumping-arsnec-in-californian-water


irun5k

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
    • Saint Petersburg, FL
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2024, 10:55:57 PM »
Y'know, I've said this before but it seems as if some parts of the country have a huge surplus of rainwater at times, most notably the southeast and it's either dumped in the ocean or gulf of Mexico.

In certain areas of FL, reclaimed water is pretty common.  We have it on our property here in the Tampa Bay area.  The nice thing is, even when there is a drought you can and in fact need to continue watering since the water is continuously being processed.  I was originally concerned about the salt content but it hasn't been an issue.

FigoVelo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
    • Sebastopol, California, 9B
    • View Profile
Re: California New Permanent Water Restrictions
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2024, 11:26:58 AM »
For someone doing commercial cultivation I can see that potentially being feasible although wildly expensive. For those doing backyard hobby orchards, that does not sound feasible whatsoever.

I recall talk in SoCal of exceptions being made for established trees, which are considered to have beneficial effects for the local microclimate - something government has recognized. Water agency officials have publicly stated that they do not want their watering restrictions to cause residential trees to die.

I suspect using all wash water - even kitchen sink if allowable - for graywater could mitigate many impacts on home growers.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk