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Messages - bussone

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ponciruslike fruit comparison
« on: November 08, 2024, 04:44:25 PM »
Hello Skandiberg, BorisR and Jibro,

thanks for your contributions and thoughts!

I also made a comparison, although due to time constraints I did not evaluate it in such detail.
I have mostly fruits of the same varieties, which all appear quite poncirus-like, both in their appearance (i.e. trifoliate leaves, deciduous in winter, very thorny growth, fruits with velvety hairs, and what is also a very important criterion, frost-hardy to at least -20°C, i.e. a cultivation category in which the previously known hybrids, which are of course much more usable, cannot keep up.


Fruit varieties


Fruit varieties  - sliced ​​fruits

Interesting that the poncirus from Woodlanders seems to have a navel.

2
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: How to store seeds
« on: November 08, 2024, 04:36:56 PM »
I just wash the seeds and let them soak in Sagrotan (a household desinfect) for 15' then rinse them with clear water and keep the wet seeds in the fridge.

I had to look up what that was. Basically, Lysol has the same active ingredients. Same corporate owner, too, apparently.

3
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 06, 2024, 11:20:12 AM »
Crossbreeding Citropsis with Citrus was unsuccessful for a long time, and it was only recently (around 15 years ago) that wakonai was discovered that fertile hybrids could be produced. Malcolm W Smith, one of the discoverers of wakonai, achieved this in Bundaberg.

https://journals.ashs.org/jashs/view/journals/jashs/138/1/article-p57.xml
in that work he mentions that they are sterile, although the novel thing was that they formed fruit, but they are sterile both in pollen and in the inability to form seeds. I never understood why crosses are made with things like Mandarina Nova, it would be better with Poncirus or Citranges... 🤷.

Smith discusses that in a later work. Sometimes species won't cross directly, but will cross as a member of a hybrid. Poncirus and the Australian citrus dislike crossing directly, but can cross if a mandarin is a hybrid-member. Thus a poncirus-mandarin hybrid can be made to cross with Australian species or Australian hybrids. Basically the mandarin acts as a buffer or mediator for the cross and appears to provide tolerance to distant outcrossings.

Two prior distant outcrossings used mandarins -- a Nova (reticulata) and an unnamed sunki.

4
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 05, 2024, 06:16:34 PM »

Crossbreeding Citropsis with Citrus was unsuccessful for a long time, and it was only recently (around 20 years ago) that wakonai was discovered that fertile hybrids could be produced. Malcolm W Smith, one of the discoverers of wakonai, achieved this in Bundaberg.

https://journals.ashs.org/jashs/view/journals/jashs/138/1/article-p57.xml

This thesis has a photo of an earlier somatic cross Smith mentions. ('Nova' mandarin (Citrus reticulata Blanco + Citropsis gilletiana))
https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/05/07/33/00001/NIELSEN_E.pdf

Update from Smith.
https://era.daf.qld.gov.au/id/eprint/13750/1/IH_2024_1_4_Smith%20et%20al_01.pdf

They have some complicated Australian crosses which involve poncirus now (they need the CTV resistance).

5
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 05, 2024, 11:20:25 AM »
In consequence, this means that the assumption determines the result. Such an investigation would be of no use.
Cluster analyses are based on the genetic parameters investigated and the clusters identified are determined by the genetic signature.
Which clusters are formed naturally depends on the gene sequences analysed. This means that different conclusions can be drawn depending on the genetic sequences analysed. Such results still need to be categorised and interpreted  This is described very well in the study linked by Ilya.

That bedevils all of these studies -- the answer depends on the comparison groups.

This study of most of rutaceae places poncirus pretty comfortably within a citrus genra that also includes fortunella, eremocitrus, microcitrus, and clymenia, although its internal sorting of those within citrus isn't very confident.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/tax.12543

That draws an outgroup line at limonia/feroniella, with citropsis a ways outside that. (Basically the line sits at oranges vs wood apples, and we are thusly comparing apples to oranges) Aurantioideae is annoyingly promiscuous.

It seems generally to be found that poncirus's nearest extant relative is ichangensis.

6
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 04, 2024, 10:09:43 PM »
If poncirus is freely hybridizing in the wild with citrus, it would tend to support it being a distant accession within citrus.

not necessarily, at least in the study cited here trifoliata does not cluster with Citrus. In the study linked by ilya, at least pubinervia clusters with Citrus, which is attributed to introgression with maxima.
Citropsis can also hybridise with Citrus, although only with wakonai. However, there is no doubt that it is not Citrus.
Interbreeding does not necessarily indicate the same generic affiliation.

Fortunella only clusters with citrus if you assume it's citrus. If you don't, it clusters separately as well.

Citropsis *can* hybridize with citrus, but does not in the wild. Poncirus apparently does.

7
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 04, 2024, 06:13:00 PM »
I think this is the relevant statement of the paper:

"Poncirus, a subject of continuous controversy since it was originally proposed to be within the genus Citrus is clearly a distinct clade that is separate from Citrus based on sequence divergence and whole-genome phylogeny."

Poncirus is treated as an outgroup because Poncirus is outside the clusters of all other Citrus.  This leads the authors to the conclusion to separate Poncirus. In the images as in the principal coordinate analysis, Poncirus is not even inside the diagram shown. It forms a cluster far outside the other citrus groups.
I think this is the reason why it is considered as not belonging to Citrus in the paper.
Also in the cladogram Poncirus is placed basal to all Citrus. Which means that the researchers consider Poncirus to be older than Citrus. Poncirus would not be a split-off, but a sister genus to Citrus.

Concerning P.polyandra and pubinervia it is somewhat more complex. Because, as in the paper linked by Ilya, an introgression of C. maxima could be demonstrated in pubinervia (I can't remember for polyandra at the moment). This leads to a difficulty in the classification. obviously both are Poncirus representatives, on the other hand the hybridisation with maxima is a connection to Citrus. This is also noticeable in the certain clusters. pubinervia tends to group with Citrus in some parameters. In pubinervia, this is expressed by an assignment to Citrus and by labelling the hybrid origin with an X.
Whether a marginal, long-ago introgression and since then a separate development of pubinervia and polyandra justifies labelling as a hybrid species is a complex discussion. (Btw. I don't think that's a good idea, as introgressions are often found in plants)

I think the literature backs the idea that polyandra is a mutation of poncirus trifoliata.

Where to draw the genus line is not clear. Basically everything agrees that citrus, fortunella, and poncirus are fairly distant from atalantia, the preferred nearest aurantiodae (the ones I saw didn't use citropsis, which can hybridize). It's generally agreed that fortunella is closer to citrus than poncirus is, and farther from poncirus than from citrus. But it's not necessarily a ton closer. Fortunella has recently tended to be grouped within citrus, but that waxes and wanes.

If poncirus is freely hybridizing in the wild with citrus, it would tend to support it being a distant accession within citrus.

8
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Poncirus polyandra turning yellow
« on: November 04, 2024, 05:52:10 PM »
That could be the case, of course. But I've already thought about that, because it's autumn and many citrus hybrids nearby are changing colour. But since it's polyandra, there's really no reason for the colouring...
I'll keep an eye on it, it's only 2 graftings out of many...
It is grafted onto Poncirus trifoliata, like my other Polyandra grafts

Is polyandra similar enough to trifoliata that it is responding to the rootstock going dormant in a manner that mainline citrus wouldn't necessarily do? (Poncirus has a lot of hardiness genetics that citrus does not, and it's not entirely clear whether or not polyandra also has them)

In short, polyandra on trifoliata may not respond like own-root polyandra would, and I'm not sure how studied this is.

9
Hi All

I want to have some insight on South Carolina's climate compared to Florida's. Do any sub-tropical fruit trees grow there without winter protection. Would guava trees do fine in winters without protection? Also, Is S. Carolina cooler and less humid than Florida?

Thanks.

Where in South Carolina compared to where in Florida?

Coastal SC is a lot like coastal northern Florida. But NW South Carolina is nothing like southern Florida.

Besides latitude, SC's highest point is 3,550 ft (1080 m). Florida's highest point is 345 ft (105 m).

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: November 01, 2024, 05:58:44 PM »
Wow.

Stupid or not, it was worth asking that question.

Boris and Bussone,

Thank you for the article and the additional information. I knew of the variability of PT but this is new to me. I thought all Poncirus clones were superior to any of the hybrids in hardiness boosting, just by a different margin. And so it seems they aren't. Thank you for pointing it out.

This is an interesting article.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1815977

There are two primary takeaways, I think.

1. Poncirus isn't just cold-hardy. It's also really disease-hardy, and its genome is much more active on the cold-hardiness and disease-resistance fronts than is typical of citrus. (This is why it's beloved as a rootstock)
2. The US poncirus selections are not diverse.

Thus, it's conceivable that our image of poncirus as sticky, foul-tasting mess may just be a selection of the items the USDA saw promising as rootstock after a few gatherings, selected with flavor entirely as an after-thought. Non-US poncirus examples may have very different offerings and provide different experiences.

11
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Poncirus polyandra turning yellow
« on: November 01, 2024, 05:36:53 PM »
Is this different than what it has done in the past?

12
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 01, 2024, 05:35:35 PM »
There is also the newly discovered Citrus pubinervia, which belongs to Poncirus rather than Citrus, but is placed in Citrus in the first description because the authors place all Poncirus in Citrus.

In this paper, Poncirus is treated as an outgroup because Poncirus lies outside the clusters of all other Citrus. In the diagram, Poncirus is not even within the diagram shown.
This is the reason why it is considered as not belonging to Citrus in the paper.

"Poncirus, a subject of continuous controversy since it was originally proposed to be within the genus Citrus is clearly a distinct clade that is separate from Citrus based on sequence divergence and whole-genome phylogeny."

However, Kew lists Poncirus trifoliata as Citrus trifoliata.

You may want to link the paper. =)

13
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 01, 2024, 11:56:40 AM »
Good morning! With this exhaustive research work I started to get interested in the genetics of citrus... but there is something I had overlooked, why was Poncirus used as an external group to Citrus, while all the other genera were reconsidered as synonyms of Citrus and for which it is proposed that they should be changed to Citrus. What reason makes a single branch, with a single species and perfectly interfertile with citrus, be placed as external to the genus? Before, it was considered that Poncirus could be Citrus trifoliata, that is, they included it. It should be noted that Severina is also another external group, but this is logical since Severina belongs to an independent branch in which other species of the genus Atalantia are found (basically Severina would be synonymous with Atalantia).
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25447

Does anyone have a clearer idea of ​​why it is considered a "non-Citrus" here?

This seems to fluctuate with thinking in whatever era you're looking at. Poncirus has been in and out before (once Citrus trifoliata). We're currently in a phase where citrus-adjacent genii are collapsing back into citrus (already happened with microcitrus and eremocitrus and it seems fortunella as well). There's some effort to reclassify poncirus as citrus.

Florida will probably support it, because it means they can use poncirus hybrids for juice without having to declare it transgenic.

Incidentally, poncirus is not monospecific. There is also poncirus polyandra (would be citrus polytrifolia, as "polyandra" is already taken).

14
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Zanthoxylum
« on: November 01, 2024, 11:47:17 AM »
As a follow-up, the szechuan pepper did fruit and did produce edible seed coats. Not sure whether it self-pollinated or whether the (male) americanum was the pollen donor.

Basically the same pattern this year. No freezes yet, but we've dropped into the 30s (F) multiple times. Nightshades are still going. The simulans is green, the americanum has dropped leaves, the fig is yellowing and/or dropping, and Thomasville (and Morton) is green. My poncirus is mostly green, but is showing some color change mid-tree. That may be water-stress; we haven't had measurable rain in 100 days.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 24, 2024, 06:17:28 PM »
Ah, I am asking a question now. Beware, it may be a dumb one.

Is it enough if the rootstock stays alive at my location? I mean, is a US-852 rootstock just as good as a pure PT when it comes to boosting the hardiness of the scion? I always thought that Poncirus is the real deal at the borderline areas like mine because citrandarins, citranges etc. generally have less cold hardiness even if they stay alive in my region. That's why I mentioned I had better find a pure PT fruit to sow its seeds.

Sorry if I was asking something stupid.

I gather it depends on where you are and what you need. Sometimes different rootstocks give you either better protection from late freezes than poncirus does, or it can recover from freeze-damage better than poncirus can.

If your trouble is just the depth of cold, it's probably poncirus. If you're more upper 7/low 8, you may have different considerations. It sounds like some rootstocks also deal with a lack of summer heat better than poncirus does. There's a poster here from the PNW who reports poncirus struggles for him, whereas some lower-hardiness species can manage.

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 24, 2024, 06:13:12 PM »
I have some PT plants in pots. They lost most of their foliage by now and the rest is mainly yellow. Of course, a potted plant is not the same but they happen to be at a sheltered spot. If that, obviously big tree is dead green and hasn't lost a leaf yet, while other PT's are dropping leaves, that may indicate it's actually a hybrid. Or that's how I figure. Am I thinking wrong?

I think it may depend how cold you get and what your sun is like.

Mine took -10 C / 14 F and a week without temps getting above freezing and it stayed green, even though the mature Flying Dragon in my town did drop leaves. So I think there's a fair amount of variation from tree to tree and location to location. Mine had some lateral burlap protection from the wind (but not on top), whereas the mature specimen did not.

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 24, 2024, 01:25:25 PM »
By the way, do citranges and most PT hybrids have hairy fruit? These have that delicate, majorly invisible, very fine hair on the surface which gives the rind a velvet-like touch. The pictures may not show it well. Can it help with identification?

Depends. Thomasville (1/4 poncirus) is not pubescent (hairy). Swingle (1/2) is, but Morton and Carrizo (also 1/2) are not.

A bunch of other hybrids seem not to be.
https://idtools.org/citrus_id/index.cfm?packageID=1179&entityID=8875

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 24, 2024, 01:21:09 PM »
And most importantly if it's evergreen or not. My common sense suggests that would be revealing.

Poncirus can be evergreen if it stays warm enough. My species seedling didn't drop last year, and it's *clearly* poncirus.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 24, 2024, 01:19:30 PM »

I know it crops buckets of fruit so obviously it's a big tree. That indicates good hardiness. Some 12 years ago we had terrible frosts in March when we had -15⁰C nights for two weeks in the second part of March, every single day. That heavily set back even apple and cherry trees. If this is old enough to have survived that, then it's a tough one for sure.

So I had better locate a real Poncirus for my rootstock needs.

Why? It's clearly hardy.

The USDA uses a ton of poncirus-hybrids as rootstocks, so there's no structural reason to not use it. It just might not be pure species.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 15, 2024, 11:15:52 AM »
I received a bag of Poncirus fruit today. If just a mere 20 per cent of the seeds germinate, I think I am provided with future rootstock material for a decade. So it was a welcome surprise for today.

The interesting part is the quality. The bag oozes from a fantastic fragrance. I swear these fruits smell like quince. Really pleasant. Nothing to complain about. I didn't have high hopes for taste. When I cut one of it, I smelled the typical floral Poncirus aroma. Still nothing negative. I saw some resin on the knife which came from the rind. But guys, this thing tastes good. Barely any sticky substance in the flesh, pretty much nothing.

What was the source of the poncirus fruit?

My aunt got them from an old lady she knows from the market. She surprised me with them yesterday. Does it sound like an ordinary PT to you or should I think it's something special? As I said, I haven't tried a Poncirus fruit for a long time. But for this fruit I didn't need a juicer. I could easily squeeze it with my hand and got all the juice out of it. And I forgot to mention the core of the fruit was hard. When I picked out the seeds, the core stopped the tip of the knife.

Maybe if I use a juicer, some more bitterness and resin would come out of the membranes. But squeezed by hand, its juice tasted good. Only sour and not bitter at all. I expected the sticky resinous stuff you all write about. But basically nothing of that. And its acidity was milder than what you taste from a lemon. That's always very sharp, this isn't. If I liked sour more, I could eat the flesh with a spoon. A few minutes after consuming it I detected a very slight bitterness in my throat but it wasn't bad or heavy. I think I will try another fruit to see if they all are like this or the first fruit was a stand out one.

I guess the quality is connected with the hot mediterranean summer we had this year. If I had a Kinga1, it would surely be sweet now.

To me, poncirus has reminded me more of a sour orange in terms of its acidity than a lemon.

It's worth a shot. Poncirus is pretty easy to grow. It looks less pubescent than I'm used to seeing on poncirus, but I won't pretend to be an authority. Even as a one-off, maybe that particular fruit had something unusual about it.

I'll put it this way, it's worth it to me to volunteer you to spend your time seeing if it grows into something interesting.
 ;)

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: October 14, 2024, 05:12:40 PM »
I received a bag of Poncirus fruit today. If just a mere 20 per cent of the seeds germinate, I think I am provided with future rootstock material for a decade. So it was a welcome surprise for today.

The interesting part is the quality. The bag oozes from a fantastic fragrance. I swear these fruits smell like quince. Really pleasant. Nothing to complain about. I didn't have high hopes for taste. When I cut one of it, I smelled the typical floral Poncirus aroma. Still nothing negative. I saw some resin on the knife which came from the rind. But guys, this thing tastes good. Barely any sticky substance in the flesh, pretty much nothing. Sour, with some wild Citrus taste, but not as aggressively sour as a pure lemon. Probably there is some fair amount of sweetness hiding behide the acidity, and that tames the sourness. We had an extraordinarily hot summer this year so that's possible. I won't guess the Brix. But I diluted the juice with water and it tastes simply good. That made me brave so I ate a piece of the fruit itself and still nothing bad. I am very surprised. And it has tons of seeds, as expected, but it has juice, too. Not just a few drops. It's properly juicy.

I tried Poncirus only one time, about 14 years ago. That was resinous. I am unsure if this one is normal or much better than average. But I am positively surprised. It's not bad at all. I drank its 'lemonade' and it didn't raid my tongue. I didn't feel the need for sugar at all. Here it is:

What was the source of the poncirus fruit?

22
I also want to point out that Chinotto sour orange is mildly cold hardy. It should do fine in zone 9. It might even be able to survive in zone 8b.

I have tasted Chinotto sour orange fresh off the tree. It does have a strong nice fragrance. But the fruits are small, completely full of seeds, a little bit low quality.

Sounds like a good marmalade orange.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: October 01, 2024, 01:30:19 PM »
Conestoga 062 is a selection with reduced thorniness in the upper ends of flushes.

 :o

Isn't there a general tendency in citrus for reduced thorniness in the taller parts of the tree?

24
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Grasshoppers
« on: October 01, 2024, 01:19:27 PM »
We have large ones that are very quick to fly away. Hard to catch. And they eat everything. All my plants are open to the elements; not sure what predators these grasshoppers have but they need to work harder. They are also so voracious that they can decimate the plants quickly.


Turkeys and Chickens will help with reduce the grasshopper populations. Turkeys especially love grasshoppers. Chickens don't tend to like citrus since the oils are bitter, I'd think turkeys would be the same. I know they never touched any peels I put in their run to snack on. I realize this isn't a solution for everyone, but it may help for some.

There's a nursery outside Phoenix that lets chickens and peacocks free-roam the grounds. They don't seem to hurt the plants any.

25
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: red or pink finger like or desert lime
« on: September 27, 2024, 02:44:34 PM »
Madison citrus has the largest selection of whats availlablle (multiple finger limes and other australian citrus sp.)

red lime tasted awful to me, like pinesol similar to sweet lime.

As of now Australia's vibrant beautiful cultivars just aren't available stateside. Down under has vibrant crimson red, bright green and even yellow finger limes for sale - It's odd no big citrus repository has taken interest in as I don't think they're patented. Perhaps some industrious person could breed some or someone with the permits and certificates could laboriously import seeds but until then US stock of australian citrus is pretty undiverse.

I think the trouble is that the quarantine states (CA, AZ, TX, FL) are focused on juice crops, and well... Australian citrus are almost completely useless for that. So you can sometimes find them in the hobby/ornamental states, but not the commercial ag states, and it's hard to pass stuff in and out of the quarantine.

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