Mamey sapote (Papa)

[Tropicalgrower89]

Sandy soil from northern Broward up is a blessing. Oolitic limestone with 6 inches of soil on top is like growing plants in a bag of lime.

I had bee using a foliar mix (keyplex 350), but my soil is so wretched that it wasn't making much of a difference. Carlos' idea of super-sizing the dosing and using a good dose of pure urea is likely the ticket. I just drenched my green sap and my 'variegated' carambola. We'll see how they do in a month or two.

Looking forward to seeing the results. Besides Carlos, I wonder if the owner/s of Reyes Del Mamey can let you know what stuff they use on their mameys. Their mamey plantation is on crappy limestone soil.  Also, there are lots of healthy looking mamey trees in yucatan which have rocky limestone soil also.   You can see the huge limestone rocks laying on the ground in this video: REPORTAJE MAMEY 

[fruitlovers]

Both mamey and limestone originate in Yucatan where soils are limestone, so it's obvious they can thrive in those soils. I brought this up before when people complain that their limestone soil is ruining their canistel or mamey.  Same is true for sugar apple, thrives in limestone.

[Cookie Monster]

Well, apparently not all limestone is created equal, because it's a problem that all of us in the limestone areas of southern florida have to deal with. Broward is hit and miss, with some areas that have deep sand and others that have oolitic limestone directly beneath a few inches of topsoil. Homestead is all limestone.

Professional literature refers to our limestone as 'oolitic limestone.' Whether or not that's different from Mexican limestone, I don't know. But seeing as how these trees thrive in Mexican limestone, I'd venture to guess that they are.

Mameys grown in deep sand do exceptionally well. Noel's tree looks stunningly beautiful, and he only lives a few miles north of me. The only difference between the two of us is that I have limestone and he doesn't.

It's common knowledge that limestone lowers PH and that low PH reduces availability of certain micronutrients. The PH scale is logarithmic, and a small rise in PH means a big reduction in availability of micronutrients. So, it would stand to reason that the PH of Mexican limestone soil is lower than the PH of ours.

IFAS offers the following advice for growing mamey sapote in this area:

Deficiencies of zinc and manganese may occur in calcareous soils and two to five foliar sprays may be applied from mid-March to September to correct them.

Both mamey and limestone originate in Yucatan where soils are limestone, so it's obvious they can thrive in those soils. I brought this up before when people complain that their limestone soil is ruining their canistel or mamey.  Same is true for sugar apple, thrives in limestone.

[Tropicalgrower89]

Well, apparently not all limestone is created equal, because it's a problem that all of us in the limestone areas of southern florida have to deal with. Broward is hit and miss, with some areas that have deep sand and others that have oolitic limestone directly beneath a few inches of topsoil. Homestead is all limestone.

Professional literature refers to our limestone as 'oolitic limestone.' Whether or not that's different from Mexican limestone, I don't know. But seeing as how these trees thrive in Mexican limestone, I'd venture to guess that they are.

Mameys grown in deep sand do exceptionally well. Noel's tree looks stunningly beautiful, and he only lives a few miles north of me. The only difference between the two of us is that I have limestone and he doesn't.

It's common knowledge that limestone lowers PH and that low PH reduces availability of certain micronutrients. The PH scale is logarithmic, and a small rise in PH means a big reduction in availability of micronutrients. So, it would stand to reason that the PH of Mexican limestone soil is lower than the PH of ours.

IFAS offers the following advice for growing mamey sapote in this area:

Deficiencies of zinc and manganese may occur in calcareous soils and two to five foliar sprays may be applied from mid-March to September to correct them.

Both mamey and limestone originate in Yucatan where soils are limestone, so it's obvious they can thrive in those soils. I brought this up before when people complain that their limestone soil is ruining their canistel or mamey.  Same is true for sugar apple, thrives in limestone.

I think I have three types of soils in my back yard. lol Near the back fence, it is mostly grey/black sand all the way through. About 4 feet further into my yard, it's a 3-4inch layer of grey/black sand then a huge layer of white sand. Right by my next door neighbor on the east side of my yard, it's a 2-3 foot layer of sand, then limestone.  My pace mamey is growing in the area in which is grey/black sand near the surface and deep white sand under it. I've dug knee deep their and I was still hitting white sugar sand. I move about 5 feet from their towards the fence that borders my next door neighbor and it's 2 feet of sand then hit large loose limestone rocks.

[fruitlovers]

Well, apparently not all limestone is created equal, because it's a problem that all of us in the limestone areas of southern florida have to deal with. Broward is hit and miss, with some areas that have deep sand and others that have oolitic limestone directly beneath a few inches of topsoil. Homestead is all limestone.

Professional literature refers to our limestone as 'oolitic limestone.' Whether or not that's different from Mexican limestone, I don't know. But seeing as how these trees thrive in Mexican limestone, I'd venture to guess that they are.

Mameys grown in deep sand do exceptionally well. Noel's tree looks stunningly beautiful, and he only lives a few miles north of me. The only difference between the two of us is that I have limestone and he doesn't.

It's common knowledge that limestone lowers PH and that low PH reduces availability of certain micronutrients. The PH scale is logarithmic, and a small rise in PH means a big reduction in availability of micronutrients. So, it would stand to reason that the PH of Mexican limestone soil is lower than the PH of ours.

IFAS offers the following advice for growing mamey sapote in this area:

Deficiencies of zinc and manganese may occur in calcareous soils and two to five foliar sprays may be applied from mid-March to September to correct them.

Both mamey and limestone originate in Yucatan where soils are limestone, so it's obvious they can thrive in those soils. I brought this up before when people complain that their limestone soil is ruining their canistel or mamey.  Same is true for sugar apple, thrives in limestone.

There are other ingredients in oolite besides calcium: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oolite It could be one of the other elements. or lack of an element causing your problem. I think it could be helpful to you to compare this kind of soil to native limestone soils in Yucatan to figure out what really is the problem.

[Cookie Monster]

It's PH. Try growing a canistel or mamey sapote in a bag of lime and see what happens. There are charts online where you can see the relationship between nutrient availability and PH. Not rocket science.

There are other ingredients in oolite besides calcium: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oolite It could be one of the other elements. or lack of an element causing your problem. I think it could be helpful to you to compare this kind of soil to native limestone soils in Yucatan to figure out what really is the problem.

[Cookie Monster]

OK --

PH of yucatan soil is 7.5 per this link

PH of Homestead hits 9.0 in some places per this link

And, if you're not aware, PH is a logarithmic scale (think of richter scale). So 9.0 is WAY more alkaline than 7.5.

I would be overjoyed with a soil at 7.5 PH.

So it stands to simple reasoning that our limestone is either closer to the surface or has a higher concentration of calcium carbonate. (You obviously couldn't grow canistel or mamey sapote directly on top of a limestone boulder.)

It's common knowledge that PH affects nutrient availability, which is why we struggle with iron and manganese deficiencies.

[Tropicalgrower89]

OK --

PH of yucatan soil is 7.5 per this link

PH of Homestead hits 9.0 in some places per this link

And, if you're not aware, PH is a logarithmic scale (think of richter scale). So 9.0 is WAY more alkaline than 7.5.

I would be overjoyed with a soil at 7.5 PH.

So it stands to simple reasoning that our limestone is either closer to the surface or has a higher concentration of calcium carbonate. (You obviously couldn't grow canistel or mamey sapote directly on top of a limestone boulder.)

It's common knowledge that PH affects nutrient availability, which is why we struggle with iron and manganese deficiencies.

Oh okay. I understand now. Our limestone is different and more alkaline than there limestone.

[Cookie Monster]

Either that or they have more topsoil above the limestone. I've noticed that places here in South Florida which have, say, 3 feet of topsoil above our limestone do quite well. Six inches (where I live) is just not enough.

Although most tropicals prefer a slightly acid soil, iron, manganese, and zinc are all still readily available at a ph of 7.5.

Once ph hits the mid to high 8's, you're practically growing hydroponically.

OK --

PH of yucatan soil is 7.5 per this link

PH of Homestead hits 9.0 in some places per this link

And, if you're not aware, PH is a logarithmic scale (think of richter scale). So 9.0 is WAY more alkaline than 7.5.

I would be overjoyed with a soil at 7.5 PH.

So it stands to simple reasoning that our limestone is either closer to the surface or has a higher concentration of calcium carbonate. (You obviously couldn't grow canistel or mamey sapote directly on top of a limestone boulder.)

It's common knowledge that PH affects nutrient availability, which is why we struggle with iron and manganese deficiencies.

Oh okay. I understand now. Our limestone is different and more alkaline than there limestone.

[Tropicalgrower89]

Either that or they have more topsoil above the limestone. I've noticed that places here in South Florida which have, say, 3 feet of topsoil above our limestone do quite well. Six inches (where I live) is just not enough.

Although most tropicals prefer a slightly acid soil, iron, manganese, and zinc are all still readily available at a ph of 7.5.

Once ph hits the mid to high 8's, you're practically growing hydroponically.

OK --

PH of yucatan soil is 7.5 per this link

PH of Homestead hits 9.0 in some places per this link

And, if you're not aware, PH is a logarithmic scale (think of richter scale). So 9.0 is WAY more alkaline than 7.5.

I would be overjoyed with a soil at 7.5 PH.

So it stands to simple reasoning that our limestone is either closer to the surface or has a higher concentration of calcium carbonate. (You obviously couldn't grow canistel or mamey sapote directly on top of a limestone boulder.)

It's common knowledge that PH affects nutrient availability, which is why we struggle with iron and manganese deficiencies.

Oh okay. I understand now. Our limestone is different and more alkaline than there limestone.

Yeah, I've noticed that there is a layer of red soil in some parts of the yucatan peninsula. I think this is in the Akil area.

Establecimiento en Cultivo de Mamey

[Cookie Monster]

Gee, red soil means iron. It's no wonder canistels and mameys are iron deficient here!! If I had soil like that, I'd be in heaven.

Thanks for posting that.

Yeah, I've noticed that there is a layer of red soil in some parts of the yucatan peninsula. I think this is in the Akil area.

Establecimiento en Cultivo de Mamey

[fruitlovers]

OK --

PH of yucatan soil is 7.5 per this link

PH of Homestead hits 9.0 in some places per this link

And, if you're not aware, PH is a logarithmic scale (think of richter scale). So 9.0 is WAY more alkaline than 7.5.

I would be overjoyed with a soil at 7.5 PH.

So it stands to simple reasoning that our limestone is either closer to the surface or has a higher concentration of calcium carbonate. (You obviously couldn't grow canistel or mamey sapote directly on top of a limestone boulder.)

It's common knowledge that PH affects nutrient availability, which is why we struggle with iron and manganese deficiencies.

Are you saying that your soil pH is 9 where you live? According to link i gave some oolite contains iron, but if your pH is that super high it just won't be available to the plants. Have you ever had a soil test? Understanding soils may not be rocket science, but it's definitely a whole lot more complicated than you make it sound. There may be other problems apart from high levels of calcium that your rocket missed. 

[JF]

Gee, red soil means iron. It's no wonder canistels and mameys are iron deficient here!! If I had soil like that, I'd be in heaven.

Thanks for posting that.

Yeah, I've noticed that there is a layer of red soil in some parts of the yucatan peninsula. I think this is in the Akil area.

Establecimiento en Cultivo de Mamey

Oscar, not just limestone soils......there sure is a lot of rich soil up and down the jungles of the Yucatan

Tecoh


Izamal

[Tropicalgrower89]

Gee, red soil means iron. It's no wonder canistels and mameys are iron deficient here!! If I had soil like that, I'd be in heaven.

Thanks for posting that.

Yeah, I've noticed that there is a layer of red soil in some parts of the yucatan peninsula. I think this is in the Akil area.

Establecimiento en Cultivo de Mamey

You're welcome. 

[Tropicalgrower89]

Gee, red soil means iron. It's no wonder canistels and mameys are iron deficient here!! If I had soil like that, I'd be in heaven.

Thanks for posting that.

Yeah, I've noticed that there is a layer of red soil in some parts of the yucatan peninsula. I think this is in the Akil area.

Establecimiento en Cultivo de Mamey

Oscar, not just limestone soils......there sure is a lot of rich soil up and down the jungles of the Yucatan

Tecoh


Izamal

Nice pics!  Google earth has street view for the major roads in yucatan peninsula. You could see guanabana trees, lots of mamey sapote trees, etc..., especially in people's yards.

[fruitlovers]

Thanks for the photos JF. Would love to be able to visit Yucatan peninsula some day.

[Cookie Monster]

I'm sorry this is so hard to understand, but to break it down to it's simplest form, I'm disputing your logic which takes the following form:

 - Mamey is indigenous to Yucatan
 - Yucatan has limestone
 - Therefore mamey does well on all limestone

Which is a obviously a fallacious argument, since there are many other factors involved (eg, depth of top soil before hitting limestone, solubility of the particular limestone with regards to water, etc, etc). Since limestone is a liming agent, these factors determine the ph of the soil, which therefore determine the availability of nutrients.

But seeing as how you garden on a completely different soil, I understand how it's easy to make such conjectures, as it would be very difficult for me to conjecture facts about your soil, which I have no experience with.

Are you saying that your soil pH is 9 where you live? According to link i gave some oolite contains iron, but if your pH is that super high it just won't be available to the plants. Have you ever had a soil test? Understanding soils may not be rocket science, but it's definitely a whole lot more complicated than you make it sound. There may be other problems apart from high levels of calcium that your rocket missed. 

[fruitlovers]

I'm sorry this is so hard to understand, but to break it down to it's simplest form, I'm disputing your logic which takes the following form:

 - Mamey is indigenous to Yucatan
 - Yucatan has limestone
 - Therefore mamey does well on all limestone

Which is a obviously a fallacious argument, since there are many other factors involved (eg, depth of top soil before hitting limestone, solubility of the particular limestone with regards to water, etc, etc). Since limestone is a liming agent, these factors determine the ph of the soil, which therefore determine the availability of nutrients.

But seeing as how you garden on a completely different soil, I understand how it's easy to make such conjectures, as it would be very difficult for me to conjecture facts about your soil, which I have no experience with.

Are you saying that your soil pH is 9 where you live? According to link i gave some oolite contains iron, but if your pH is that super high it just won't be available to the plants. Have you ever had a soil test? Understanding soils may not be rocket science, but it's definitely a whole lot more complicated than you make it sound. There may be other problems apart from high levels of calcium that your rocket missed. 

You got the first 2 premises right, but the conclusion i made is different. The conclusion is mamey can grow on limestone, which means it can grow in some limestones. And that is quite obvious. I didn't conclude that your limestone is same as that in Yucatan, or that your conditions are identical. In a previous discussion i in fact asked you how oolitic limestone is different from native limestones in which mamey grows and you didn't answer or didn't know the answer. Also you assume that i haven't lived anywhere else. I've lived in lots of places and on many different types of soils. Never in Florida, that is true. I don't pretend to be a soil scientist, but neither are you, come to think of it.

[Tropicalgrower89]

Hey Mike,

Is your Papa Mamey thriving?

[BENDERSGROVE]

I have one at my sisters house doing ok. Not a fast grower

[shah8]

High Mayan civilization collapsed, it seems in part, due to declines in soil fertility.  It took a lot of work to make that land down there productive.

[mangoba]

I need all the help I could get here please.

I already lost one seedling in the same manner, leaves get yellow spots then the sides shrivel and the whole leaf dies and falls.

My soil shows issues with micros obviously but Mg is a good candidate as well as Iron. I. get very bright sun every day, and the temps are hovering around 95.

I do spray micros every now and then, and I'm about to drench with 1/2oz Sequestrene + 1/2oz Magnesium Sulfate, otherwise I usually fertilize with very light npk. Any other leads please.