Sex ratio for black sapote? Bisexual cultivars?

[drymifolia]

So I realize these are technically two different questions, but seems related enough to bundle together:

• Does anyone have experience (or a trustworthy source) for what the typical ratio is of male/female/bisexual seedlings of black sapote (D. digyna, aka D. nigra)? I know that each of those three is a possibility, but not sure what the usual breakdown is.
  
  
• Does anyone have a good list of which black sapote cultivars reliably produce male flowers? Like not just occasionally, I mean one that's got lots of male flowers and just a few female flowers once in awhile so I could get some fruit from an otherwise "male" tree.

And for those wondering why... I'm currently starting a batch of black sapote seedlings that I plan to use as the pollen parent in attempted crosses with D. texana, which has the same ploidy (both are diploid) and they are even in the same clade of Diospyros according to some analyses (that may have used statistical methods that are of uncertain reliability). Since my (very small) one year-old D. texana seedlings survived a winter low of 14.7°F without even fully defoliating, it looks like I won't have to worry about growing those in my greenhouse even when they're small, so that's good news.

Basically, I'm debating between growing out a few of the black sapote seedlings until they flower vs. grafting them as soon as they reach a good graftable size. I don't have a ton of space in my greenhouse for this project, so in the long run I really will want just a single tree in a good-sized container that can be moved outside from spring to fall, but I could probably manage three or four of them for a few years if I'm waiting for first flowers. But if a really high percentage are typically all-female, then I will probably start looking for scionwood sooner than later.

[FMfruitforest]

I grew two black sapote seedlings, they both flowered and set fruit at 4 years.

[ScottR]

So I realize these are technically two different questions, but seems related enough to bundle together:

• Does anyone have experience (or a trustworthy source) for what the typical ratio is of male/female/bisexual seedlings of black sapote (D. digyna, aka D. nigra)? I know that each of those three is a possibility, but not sure what the usual breakdown is.
  
  
• Does anyone have a good list of which black sapote cultivars reliably produce male flowers? Like not just occasionally, I mean one that's got lots of male flowers and just a few female flowers once in awhile so I could get some fruit from an otherwise "male" tree.

And for those wondering why... I'm currently starting a batch of black sapote seedlings that I plan to use as the pollen parent in attempted crosses with D. texana, which has the same ploidy (both are diploid) and they are even in the same clade of Diospyros according to some analyses (that may have used statistical methods that are of uncertain reliability). Since my (very small) one year-old D. texana seedlings survived a winter low of 14.7°F without even fully defoliating, it looks like I won't have to worry about growing those in my greenhouse even when they're small, so that's good news.

Basically, I'm debating between growing out a few of the black sapote seedlings until they flower vs. grafting them as soon as they reach a good graftable size. I don't have a ton of space in my greenhouse for this project, so in the long run I really will want just a single tree in a good-sized container that can be moved outside from spring to fall, but I could probably manage three or four of them for a few years if I'm waiting for first flowers. But if a really high percentage are typically all-female, then I will probably start looking for scionwood sooner than later.

drymifolia, you seem to understand this technical side of diospryos do you think black sapote could be grafted to d. texana or possible? I know a old timer CRFGer down in San Deigo area Leo Manual, had a diospyos kaki with a branch grafted with Black Sapote that grew for many years before dying.

[drymifolia]

I grew two black sapote seedlings, they both flowered and set fruit at 4 years.

Have you ever noticed any male flowers? They form in clusters instead of singly.

drymifolia, you seem to understand this technical side of diospryos do you think black sapote could be grafted to d. texana or possible? I know a old timer CRFGer down in San Deigo area Leo Manual, had a diospyos kaki with a branch grafted with Black Sapote that grew for many years before dying.

I think there's a very good chance that digyna and texana are graft compatible, but I've not found any record of anyone trying. I'll be trying myself as part of this hybridization project, and will definitely post the results here on the forum at some point. I also strongly suspect that when it's used as a rootstock, texana will have a dwarfing effect on any other Diospyros species, since they are very slow growing shrubby trees. But that is just a guess.

I do know that both texana and digyna can be grafted on virginiana. Marta Matvienko uses virginiana rootstocks for her texana trees, and Craig Hepworth wrote a blog post summarizing successful digyna grafts on virginiana.

One thing to keep in mind, many species of persimmon are difficult to maintain as a multi-graft tree because they have a tendency to self-prune old branches, so after a few years you'll lose anything you graft on a lower branch. That may have been what happened to that digyna branch on kaki, or maybe it was truly delayed incompatibility.

[sc4001992]

I have a question on the Black Sapote trees in SoCal. Is it easy for these trees to fruit here? Does anyone here have a fruiting tree.

For you drymifolia, if it is a black sapote, I will get you some scion wood, just pay me for the shipping cost if your seedling is ready to be grafted.

-> update, 7/29. Found out her tree is a large white sapote, not black sapote.

[sc4001992]

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[SHV]

I have a question on the Black Sapote trees in SoCal. Is it easy for these trees to fruit here? Does anyone here have a fruiting tree.

Yes, I have a fruiting tree and it does quite well here.  In fact, it fruits so heavily that I have to thin the fruit every year or they only get to golf ball size.  Every flower makes a fruit and they are just now ripening with new flowers setting. All the fruiting and flower has probably dwarfed its growth but it looks healthy enough and survives winters just fine. The tree has been in ground for 6 years and still only 6 ft tall.

[K-Rimes]

Is it like a chocolate pudding?

I think it's a visual flavor cue more than it is literally tasting anything like chocolate. A good black sapote is a mild flavored, sweet, rich, and soft texture fruit. I don't sense chocolate flavor at all, but somehow my brain tells me it is there because it looks like it.

I like the fruit overall, but I don't think I'd put it anywhere near my top 10, probably not even top 20 fruits.

[sc4001992]

thanks Kevin good to know. So does white sapote taste better to you? I may just refocus on more white sapote instead.

[K-Rimes]

thanks Kevin good to know. So does white sapote taste better to you? I may just refocus on more white sapote instead.

They're both good, but white sapote has more flavor and variability to it. Some white sapote can be really good fruits. Black sapote is more of a novelty to me I guess.

Now, keep in mind, I have not had many selected varieties like Snow or Bernecker, only seedling trees. I have had horrible seedling white sapotes, so, I don't want to serve judgement from a place of really knowing

[sc4001992]

Found out it was a white sapote tree, not black sapote.

[drymifolia]

thanks Kevin good to know. So does white sapote taste better to you? I may just refocus on more white sapote instead.

I think in terms of flavor, a good white sapote is way better than most black sapotes, but keep in mind (as I'm sure you know) you're comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Even though they both have "sapote" in the name, they are not related at all and are completely different fruit. And neither is in the actual sapote family (Sapotaceae).

A really good, fully tree ripened black sapote (do NOT pick early and counter ripen, wait for it to be soft on the tree) has a quite sweet taste, almost caramel notes but not really chocolate flavor. I ate them a lot when I was a homeless kid because the people with the trees didn't eat them and told me to take as many as I wanted, and they are a very "filling" fruit, good for getting calories and filling your stomach. I wouldn't say they are a top tier fruit, though.

For you drymifolia, if it is a black sapote, I will get you some scion wood, just pay me for the shipping cost if your seedling is ready to be grafted.

I have some virginiana rootstocks of a good size for grafting, but my texana and nigra seedlings are too small still. I have heard that it is graft compatible with virginiana but not compatible with kaki, and I was hoping to test compatibility with texana myself, which I don't think anyone else has tested.

Second question, has anyone air layered the black sapote and it is easy to do (success), I do air layer other fruit trees. She may let me air layer if the meeting goes well at the house.

I don't think any persimmons air-layer very easily, and have only heard of grafting for black sapote, but I guess it's worth a try.

[sc4001992]

Ok, thanks for the reply.

[drymifolia]

Ok, thanks for the reply. As long as it still tastes good, then I will add it to my collection. Glad you mentioned it should turn black before picking them. If she has a large black sapote tree I will make sure to let her know it's best to wait until fruits turn black.

They don't really turn fully black, but they turn a little darker green. The main thing is you should be able to leave fingerprints/dents when you lightly squeeze. Nice and soft.

[SHV]

Much like persimmons, I find that once the calyx starts to lift off the fruit when green, it’s ready to pick. They ripen a couple days on the counter picked at this stage. Of course you can leave it until it turns dark on the tree, but you risk it falling off and going splat at that point.
Definitely not the best fruit, but I really enjoy it. The creamy texture and molasses flavor are welcome change from the sweet tart fruit I primarily eat this time of year.

[sc4001992]

Ok, thanks for that update on how to tell when the fruits are ok to pick both of you.