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Messages - pagnr

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401
I'm particularly interested because I want to try making new citrus varieties from dwarfed, potted plants at home, and the most cold-hardy citruses I can locate are all true-breeding nucellar types.

You could also research the presence of zygotic seeds in these types, often related to seed size. They can often be selected for based on seed size.
Also the presence of zygotic types is not a fixed %, and can vary in some cultivars, seasonally or possibly by pollination.
If cultivars are difficult to cross into, using their pollen is an option if they are not sterile.

402
Key lime produces highly uniform seedlings. If you examine a group of seedlings, you will see they all have the same leaf size and shape, leaf margins, thorn size, foliage colour etc etc. None will jump out re seedling vigour, although there may be slight differences due to seed size. If you visually examine your seedlings, as you have, and one stands out in the above characters, including vigour, it must be genetically different. It could be derived from mutation or cross pollination.
Visual examination is the most used method of grading Citrus seedlings, and is commonly used to discard off type Citrus rootstock seedlings highly clonal seedling lots.

403
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Sanbokan - Anyone else growing it ?
« on: March 29, 2022, 04:06:33 AM »
I read recently that Sanbokan is closely related to Taiwanica, Nansho Dai Dai, i.e. a very hardy Citrus. How do they compare in cold tolerance ??

404
I think it's worth noting that this article is mainly about 'production nursery' techniques, i.e. producing plants for sale over a short time period.
Most people here are probably keeping plants in the same pots/media for longer periods, and the plant will grow and pull more water out as it gets bigger.
The drainage/waterholding issues will change under influence of the size of the plant growing in it.
That said, it has some good points about the structure of the lower strata of pot media, and not needing the NPK at the bottom of the pot.
As for myself I have found that the same pot media also behaves slightly differently seasonally, i.e. in hot weather. water holding/drainage/ watering requirements different than in cool weather.
I have used a screen to fine up the top layer of seed raising mix, and use the saved coarser particles lower in the pot. Not a 2 layer stratification, but similar ??
If using the exact same pot media, increasing the height of the pot effectively increases the air space of the mix, and lowers the saturated zone further below the root zone. Stratification aims to do this, but economically in reasonable sized pots for sale and shipment.

405
Citrus General Discussion / Re: c-22 bitters rootstock compatibility?
« on: February 27, 2022, 09:43:51 PM »
I purchased a Meiwa some years ago, it went ok for a while, then the graft died. The rootstock turned out to be sweet orange, which grew back well. Probably incompatible.
Also similar situation with F . hindsii and Calamondin on Swingle, both did ok for 4 years, then scion died.
Never seen C 22 bitters here, but hopefully this info may also help ??
C 22 bitters is not exactly a Swingle sibling, as Sunki mandarin is one of the other parents.

406
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Soil amendments for microbiology
« on: February 25, 2022, 03:36:12 PM »
According to Handreck, Growing Media for Ornamental Plants and Turf.
"Silicon is present in leaves of most plants at levels similar to Calcium or Sulphur.
Grasses have levels of Silicon from 1% to 10%"

Kelp and rock mineral powders are sources of Silicon.
Some components of pot mixes are Silicate minerals.
It is regarded by some as an overlooked nutrient in some growing systems
i.e. Hydroponic lettuce, ( lettuce has high levels of dietary silicon, which may not be present in soil less systems ).
Cement powder has been used as a fertiliser for Rice in SE Asia and Sugar Cane in Queensland.

407
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrus glauca
« on: February 23, 2022, 03:28:16 PM »
Hi Citrange, is the Eremowhat seedless ??

408
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Small Volume Measuring Fert
« on: February 19, 2022, 04:17:23 PM »
I am pH’ing the water to approximately 6.3 to ensure there is no nutrient lockout going on.

I would try to check the pH of the pot mix, unless you are adjusting the pH of the pot mix, the bark and peat should be on the acid side already.
Fertilisers can also influence pH, so regular liquid feeds might be having an influence.
pH of the soil or container mix overall determines nutrient availability, especially for trace and minor elements.
The pH nutrient availability charts are worth looking at.
Your P in the NPK might be a bit high for Citrus ?? Often P of about 2 to 2.5 is preferred, to avoid Iron deficiency symptoms.
You could try changing one of your fertilisers to a lower P version. Most professional companies have a range of NPK formulations.

409
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Soil amendments for microbiology
« on: February 19, 2022, 03:56:44 PM »
As you said in another post your pot mix is 5-1-1 reptibark - peat - perlite.
It possibly has low biological activity, except maybe some slight breaking down of the bark and peat.
I have used stimulant fertilisers, based on the type of things you mention, usually in conjunction with NPK plus trace, in soilless media.
Similar to what Piss P says.
You might consider worm liquid fertiliser, not worm castings as you don't need to intro worms to containers.
Zeolite, Humates and liquid kelp might be useful as well to stimulate and help with nutrient availability.
Molasses is used in fertiliser to stimulate soil biological activity. Not sure It's as useful in containers without an array of microbes to stimulate.
Overall if the pH of the pot mix is in the correct range, nutrients should be available.
Other forms of nutrients with different availability might overcome the pH problem, maybe not solve it.
Sometimes unless you re pot, mixes seem to get tired. I have found these type additions beneficial to boost plants without repotting.
I would also caution about trying too much at once, as containers are easy to add too, but difficult to remove from.

410
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Small Volume Measuring Fert
« on: February 14, 2022, 03:57:22 PM »
The label of the product has a guide "suggested feeding concentration ppm nitrogen"
and a column "periodic every 7 to 10 days"
You are mixing the 20%-750 ppm N and you say "plants are being fertilized every watering on a 4 day of 1 day on watering schedule." ( is that every 4 days ? )
 "They are also being fed a slow release fert to supplement."

According to the Label,  750 ppm every 7 to 10 days is on the high end of recommendations, i.e. outdoor Garden Landscape. Thats for outdoor shrubs
If you are fertilising every 4 days, plus the slow release fert to supplement, you seem to be over the label rates
That would seem more than adequate, if not too much ?
The label says woody ornamentals 200 to 375 ppm or heavy feeders 350 to 400 ppm.
These label recommendations might be conservative, to prevent burning at high EC.
Also says mix in warm water to completely dissolve all ingredients.

You say, The plants are flushing new growth as well as flowering but I can’t keep them fed properly.

Can you explain this more ?? What symptoms do you see ??
Also how big are the plants and containers, and what type of mix are they in ??
How much slow release fert is applied ??

411
Thanks, the subtitles were a bit hard to follow ??

412
Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to sprout citrus seeds?
« on: February 10, 2022, 02:45:54 PM »
Peeling the seed coat and planting point down is used to prevent bench root in rootstocks. Bench root is anything other than a straight shoot up, root down seedling.
A drying seed coat at planting can cause the root to circle before heading down. Even an L shaped bend in a Citrus rootstock seedling can cause a snapping weakness in young trees.
I don't peel the seed coats so far, but I do store them in the paper towel / zip lock. Some in the fridge to delay, some in a warm environment to sprout.

413
Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to sprout citrus seeds?
« on: February 10, 2022, 05:08:12 AM »
Drying the Citrus seed removes excess moisture, ( reduces mould bacteria growth ).
It also delays germination until planted in seed boxes.
For large lots of rootstock seed, germination needs to be delayed for shipping, planting etc, otherwise they will be sprouting pretty soon.
Generally it means spread out and air dried, for a few hours to overnight.

414
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Alternaria and chlorosis
« on: February 08, 2022, 04:13:17 PM »
I was once contacted by a Citrus breeding team in Australia, to supply a sample of fresh extracted rootstock seed.
They could not find any Pythium free seed from Thiram treated seed.

415
Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to sprout citrus seeds?
« on: February 08, 2022, 04:08:59 PM »
I think it was covered by a few people here
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=46266.0

Good hygiene is also important in seed collection, such as picking fruit before it falls to ground,
extracting seed before fruit goes off.
Cleaning seed thoroughly of juice and pulp etc,
using new zip bags for seed,
sterilising tools and strainers with boiling water between seed types/lots.
Working in a clean area, i.e. kitchen when wife not home !!!
Cleaning your hands between seed lots.
Cleaning/sterilizing the the peel of any older, fallen, mouldy fruit etc before getting to the seeds.

I had some mould  problems with long term storage, when saving Autumn seed for Spring planting.

This year for Citrus I simply used the gel based hand sanitiser we are all now familiar with. 5 to 10 mins in the gel then rinse thoroughly before storage in bags.
The seed were placed on clean paper kitchen towel. Wetted, then water squeezed out to damp.
The moisture level should be watched in storage. Any excess moisture squeezed out.
Also check the seed bags regularly.
If any mould developed, I repeated the rinsing / gel process, and replaced the zip bag and paper towel.
Often the mould seemed to be on the paper towel, more than the seed.

I haven't had much problem with mould after planting, I delay till soil mix is warmer, use a free draining mix in taller pots.
Techniques that keep the mix moist, but surface drier and reduce watering frequency could help.
I now use a plastic cover on Citrus germination pots, this gives high humidity, but less frequent watering.
Soilless propagation mixes should reduce pathogens, as should heat treating the mix components ( usually not with fertiliser added ).
Heat could be steam, boiling, solarisation.

Probably the first question should be where is the mould coming from ??
On the seed ? From the pot mix ?? (compost organisms ??) From the greenhouse area or general environment ??

416
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Grafting onto fast flowering Poncirus
« on: February 06, 2022, 06:26:14 AM »
I have had a few instances of snapped twigs inducing flowering. On a chinotto seedling and also a fingerlime seedling. Flowered but not set.
Recently I bent and snapped a rangpur lime rootstock sucker, on a plant budded to Microcitrus. This one flowered and has held fruit.
None of the other bent suckers on the same plant flowered.
It seems to have induced flowering, however the rootstock plant is probably old enough to flower on its own.
On the other hand I often bend and snap the top of rootstocks to force buds, and none of those has ever flowered.
Also plenty of snapped twigs never flowered either.

417
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu vs. Meyer
« on: February 05, 2022, 11:47:08 PM »
So does it make sense to cross both?

Don't know ?? There are a number of various Yuzu hybrids or types from the same lineage, or similar crosses already in Japan.
Maybe you could track them down.
Not sure you can really improve the Yuzu for what it is used for.
Japanese cuisine relies a lot on correct balance of simple ingredients.
More juice or less seeds doesn't seem to bother them ???

418
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu vs. Meyer
« on: February 05, 2022, 07:47:03 PM »
Re: Yuzu vs. Meyer

Yuzu is the winner, hands down.
Here is the definitive reason, from those who know..
https://www.facebook.com/SpoonTamago/videos/2016708848377306/

419
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu vs. Meyer
« on: February 05, 2022, 07:35:02 PM »
Myer lemon has been around for quite a while. It is an attractive ornamental Citrus, usually good crops of nice looking fruit that hang for long periods. Attractive large flowers too.
Maybe not as " Lemon" as a true lemon, but it has some good qualities. Seedlings are variable, some interesting progeny can be had from growing them.

420
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu vs. Meyer
« on: February 01, 2022, 03:59:33 PM »
Myer lemon will pass as a lemon, maybe a hint of orange or mandarin in the juice.
Yuzu is not a lemon, the juice is more savoury. Maybe like sour bitter grapefruit/sour orange, but with more balance/depth.

421
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Triple Superphosphate question.
« on: February 01, 2022, 03:44:43 PM »
No reason not to use triple superphosphate. Some recommendations for Citrus say NPK with P at around 2%. So you could calculate and apply at that rate.

422
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Alternaria and chlorosis
« on: January 31, 2022, 03:54:13 PM »
I plant my seeds as they are and let the strongest grow and the inferior seeds sprout and die.  This insures that I only have superior trees.

Sounds like an ok strategy for rootstocks and strictly nuclear types.
It's interesting that in a pot of seedlings, some will be white (Alternaria and chlorosis, or another mutation ??? ), and others seem unaffected.
Are the normal plants more resistant to infection or just lucky ??

On the other hand I have a few interesting off types that had to be helped to get going, some now survive as grafted only.
Off types can be weaker, have interesting characters and flower early.

423
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Alternaria and chlorosis
« on: January 30, 2022, 04:30:55 AM »
I have received some commercial seed treated as follows. These were excellent quality seed.

"To reduce the risk of Phytophthora spp. our seeds are heat treated at 127° F for 10 minutes. The seeds are then treated with a 1% solution of 8-hydroxyquinoline sulfate to reduce the occurrence of molds and improve storage life. The treated seed is stored in poly bags at 35° F to 45° F and regularly inspected for mold or fungus."

Also have got seed sample treated with Laboratory surface sterilant, probably (Hexol or similar I think ? ). These too gave excellent germination.

Personally I find Thiram treated seed Citrus hard to work with.

This year for Citrus I simply used the gel based hand sanitiser we are all now familiar with. 5 to 10 mins in the gel then rinse thoroughly before storage in bags.
Overall pretty good germination.

424
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Alternaria and chlorosis
« on: January 29, 2022, 08:18:39 AM »
Auscitrus  rootstock seed info..
"seed is heat treated at 52 degrees C for 10 minutes and surface sterilised with chlorine before being dried
then treated with Thiram fungicide for cool storage"

As far as I know, Thiram is applied for seed storage and germination protection.
Alternaria is listed as one of the pathogens it is used against.
https://www.cropscience.bayer.us/seedgrowth/thiram/pest
Thiram is not used on all Fungi / pathogen problems. Pythium doesn't seem to be listed ??
Similarly other Fungicides would not be effective against Alternaria.

Good hygiene is also important in seed collection, such as picking fruit before it falls to ground, extracting seed before fruit goes off.
Cleaning seed thoroughly of juice and pulp etc, using new zip bags for seed, sterilising tools and strainers with boiling water between seed types/lots.
Working in a clean area, i.e. kitchen when wife not home !!!
Cleaning your hands between seed lots.
Cleaning/sterilizing the the peel of any older, fallen, mouldy fruit etc before getting to the seeds.

Soilless propagation mixes should reduce pathogens, as should heat treating the mix components ( usually not with fertiliser added ).
Heat could be steam, boiling, solarisation.


425
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Bangladeshi Citrus
« on: January 27, 2022, 04:33:47 PM »
All these fruit were purchased from stores in the USA ??? Anyone close enough to do a taste test ??

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