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Messages - CeeJey

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1
Are there any other tropical crops that are unhealthy to eat a lot of?  What about yuca, I eat a lot of that both from my yard & the cassava flour tortillas & pastas?

In addition to what others said:

chaya when it isn't cooked enough (hydrogen cyanide content that breaks down with cooking)
katuk in huge amounts: https://www.eattheweeds.com/edible-katuk-sauropus-androgynus-2/
bitter melon in huge amounts (common story with anti-diabetic stuff, anything that helps with blood sugar seems to be rough on the liver in large volume)
monkey orange/strychnos spinosa when the fruit isn't ripe

I've come across more, but those off the top of my head.

According to the table on the first page of this discussion, paw paw has approximately 2,000 times the annonacin content of atemoya. Presuming this was indeed the causitive factor,  I would need to consume over 600,000 lbs of atemoya pulp in 10 years to get the same effect. Put another way, that is  167 pounds a day for 10 years. I think I'm safe.

Yeah, atemoya and biriba seemed to have the lowest amounts tested in every study so far. I really wish somebody would test cherimoya.

2
Am I understanding correctly that they are saying the man ate 30lbs of paw paw fruit per year and that caused parkinsons?  A mature fruit tree will produce like 100+lbs of fruit in one season so it would be very easy to eat way more than that. 

I planted a San Pablo Red Custard Apple at my house because the fruit is so good.  Right now it hasn't started producing yet but now I'm worried.

He got atypical parkinsonism, which there is evidence can be caused by chemicals in annona fruit in large long-term amounts.

The amount of the chemical that concerns most researchers varies from species to species; paw paws and soursops seem to have higher concentrations in particular depending on the batch tested. One study (it's linked higher up and in some earlier forum threads) found paw paws specifically to have a LOT of the chemical, more per serving than the high dose they were using intravenously in the rat studies.

I've been posting a lot in this thread since I enjoy sorting through and reading research studies, and I've seen enough evidence for ME that I believe annonacin can cause some of the brain damage seen in clusters (or one-offs, as with this nursery owner) with high consumption. BUT I haven't seen enough to make me personally give up annonas totally. Many, many people eat these around the world without apparent incident.

I've got a couple of small annona trees (custard apple, cherimoya, atemoya) myself that I'm working on adapting to the climate out here, and I'm not planning on throwing them out. I'm just going to keep the fruit intake down when and if they do fruit, and I'm still going to have the occasional grocery store fruit once in a while until then. I'm just not going to eat a ton of them, and focus on really enjoying the good ones as a treat. I'm also probably going to be careful about soursop and especially paw paw consumption until I see more research since those had the highest tested values and are the ones potentially linked to real-world brain damage rather than hypothetical. That's where my risk tolerance is based on the evidence so far.

Edit: Oh yeah and the seeds are still bad for all of them, apparently.

3
If you look at the incidence rate of Parkinsonís in the population that the document studied, the incidence rate of Parkinsonís on the island is not higher than the incidence rate of Parkinsonís in mainland USA. Therefore, the consumption of annona fruits does not cause Parkinsonís.

The incidence rate of standard Parkinson's (what you're referring to here) doesn't matter in the case of the studies, since they were expressly looking at atypical Parkinson's/ atypical parkinsonism: that is, Parkinson's-adjacent symptoms and degenerative disease progression that don't have the same cause or response to the same treatments as standard Parkinson's. The American Parkinson Disease Association has a decent explanation of the difference on their website: https://www.apdaparkinson.org/article/atypical-parkinsonism/ So does John Hopkins: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/parkinsons-disease/atypical-parkinsonian-disorders .

The studies in Guadeloupe used MRI and testing to exclude normal Parkinson's (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17303592/), and all of the relevant studies refer to "atypical parkinsonism" in the title. The guy who ate 30 lbs. of paw paws a year in the study linked originally at the top of this thread also had atypical Parkinson's/ parkinsonism.

"Parkinsonism", which just means "the symptoms of Parkinson's regardless of cause", is generally the result of damage to or loss of functioning of dopamine neurons. Multiple studies in vitro and in vivo have shown that chemicals in annona plants can damage dopamine neurons, which is why this research/discussion is even happening.

(Also the US is a poor benchmark even for standard Parkinson's as we have a slightly-above-global-average rate of standard-Parkinson's deaths anyway, if we were going to look at that. But again it doesn't matter, even if deaths to atypical Parkinsons get folded into the WHO numbers, because the studies screened for that. there is some confusion since some of the other countries that have or had high atypical parkinsonism, like Guam, also have or had high rates of standard Parkinson's.)

HOWEVER, if you do have Parkinsonís, it will make it worse! You will develop a ďparkinsonismĒ, which is a more severe and less treatable version of Parkinsonís. The incidence rate of parkinsonisms in that island is much higher than in mainland USA. That said, there is some evidence that if you stop eating annona, you downgrade back to regular Parkinsonís.

This seems to be a misunderstanding about what "parkinsonism" means."Parkinsonism" just means "disease with Parkinson's symptoms", it's not something extra on top of Parkinson's. The incidence of atypical parkinsonism is what was being studied in regards to the annonas. Not standard levadopa-responsive Parkinson's. The studies looked at people who did NOT have Parkinson's but instead had atypical Parkinson's.

EDIT: I can't find any indication that excludes people with Parkinson's also having MORE dopamine neuron damage from a different source than pre-existing Parkinson's, but again that wasn't what was being studied.

But, all fruits and veggies make their own insecticides to some degree, so we throw those dice anytime we eat anything plant based.

The various insecticides found in fruit and vegetables are wildly different in physical effects and many are better-studied than acetogenins. The glucosinolates that make broccoli bitter are an insecticide (and safe for human consumption in amounts found in broccoli), while solanine is also an insecticide (which is NOT safe for human consumption). Eating food that has under-studied nerve-damaging chemicals in clinically relevant amounts from normal consumption (like the annonans) is more of a potential risk to most people than eating a chili pepper containing some capscacin, despite both of those containing "insecticides to some degree".

I think the studies do make some big leaps, from directly injecting/ingesting  rats with Annonacin toxin, to applying the same chemical to extracted neurons in a petri dish. Then connecting this to Annona fruit use.

That's how they study what chemicals do, though. We apply them to cells in a petri dish and then apply them to animals, and then if it is safe and ethical to do so we apply them to humans to be sure. In this case we can't do that last one (humans) because it wouldn't be safe or ethical based on the results of the animal studies.

Anyway, in both cases studied (in vitro and in animals), annonacin causes damage to the cells in a way that could cause atypical Parkinson's. The study on asminia triloba also confirmed that it wasn't just the purified annonacin but the raw fruit extract that can cause the damage.

There doesn't appear to be a debate at the research level, at all, about whether annonacin can cause damage to neurons. The only question is whether or not enough of it gets into the bloodstream from achievable ingestion to cause the pathology. EDIT: Sorry, I think on re-read I misunderstood that this was what you were specifically referring to, that you feel it's a leap to assumptions about ingested effects. I'd agree except that you've got these cases/clusters of atypical parkinsonism popping up and that we know that IF the chemical gets into the bloodstream then it can damage neurons (from the rat studies).

In the study I looked at from Guadeloupe, the use of Annona fruit and teas was determined by a usage questionnaire to the patients as I remember.
Not sure how accurate that would be, people could easily exaggerate their use to explain their symptoms or downplay their use to avoid responsibility.

I went back and checked the main Guadeloupe study, and they had a double-blind and a similar-demographics-but-no-Parkinson's control group on the questionnaire to prevent that kind of bias (they also included a screen for the control group for Parkinson's). Food questionnaires are pretty unreliable, sure, but if you have a proper control and double-blind then a relative difference can still be seen if you have a big enough number of participants.

Otherwise it is known that some plants in the group have insecticidal properties. ( Annona Squamosa and Annona Muricata seed ).

Those insecticidal chemicals (the acetogenins which include annonacin) are also found in the fruit and other plant parts of muricata, squamosa, a. triloba, and mucosa per a couple of different studies linked in this thread.

4
ooof those Asiminia triloba numbers are off the charts- wonder if it was true fruit pulp or a concoction of the seeds and pulp

All of those numbers in the chart are from just the fruit pulp unless otherwise indicated that it was a seed tested. The Asminia Triloba numbers were from this study specifically: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf504500g . I read the full study yesterday and it was just the pulp. The thing is, the authors of that study worked hard to find a really good way to determine the actual annonacin content, and they did, with the implication being that other studies (including some of the tests of other annonas) may be detecting way less than there actually is if they aren't using the right method or extraction solvent temperature (this has come up in a couple of other papers that I read as well, apparently the method used to extract the acetogenins matters a lot for accuracy).

Ideally it'd be good to see more studies on paw paws of different varieties/ different areas to see if those numbers are reflective of the species in general or if they're an outlier, especially given that other species (soursop) seems to have a large swing in values depending on the origin location. It would also be great if somebody would cross-reference soursop consumption/ annonacin content in places in Brazil to look for any other correlative hotspots that couldn't be explained by age of the population.

Also, there's very little comparative research on the other acetogenins unique to annonas, but they're all toxic to cells to some degree and there are like ten of them. Squamocin, that other chemical in the chart up there (named because it's found in high amounts in a. squamosa seeds, apparently) , may not be disrupting neuron proteins but definitely has cytotoxic effects which is why they've been investigated for potential anti-cancer applications. Also apparently there's a completely different neurotoxin in some annonas (like soursop) that they thought was causing the Parkinsons-like disease at first. Some of those chemicals might actually be good for some things in smaller doses. There's just not enough research it seems like.

Also worth noting in Guadeloupe they blend the fruit (seeds and all) into the beverage that is most often consumed, on top of the tea leaf consumption.

That is interesting. Could definitely go some way to explaining why some places are affected and not others.

One of the most damning things I found when I was poking around in the research that pointed to "yeah it was probably food related" was that cases of Parkinson's and Parkinson's-like diseases cratered in Guam (which was also super-high) and New Caledonia with a switch to the Western diet and changes in cultivated local food but no demographics changes that would have indicated a genetic shift. That was from an old Toxicology Journal back in the 90's.

This whole thing needs a ton more research.

5
Back in an older thread on the forums (https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20267.0), NullZero linked to an FDA review that had different known amounts:




I'd take some of these with a grain of salt since they used different extraction methods for some of those, and that paw paw study indicated that you could undershoot by quite a lot depending on the extraction method and temperature. That said, another meta-study I came across couldn't find any acetogenins (the compounds that annonacin is one of) in atemoya flesh samples at all (as opposed to plenty in the seeds), so this chart might be accurate that they're very low in the flesh (as opposed to the seeds). The huge range of soursop values (all done with the same extraction method) depending on location sure suggests that cultivar or environment might have a very large effect on the values even in-species.

I can't find anything about cherimoya or sugar apple, which is surprising since those are getting pretty common (hell, I think there's cherimoya at the corner market near me in Phoenix right now). Not sure anyone has looked at those, but I'd be interested to hear about it if anyone else finds any research on those. Seems like the potential range might be huge from species to species, and I feel a little safer about eating the atemoya parents now, I guess.

6
I did some more digging into the research for some additional numbers:

- According to that last research link I posted (https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.20632), the annonacin content of the fruit pulp is much higher than the leaf decoction content by a factor of about 100 and the highest dose to people in Guadeloupe would have been from the fruit and not the leaves. Or canned with nectar, canned had an even higher concentration for some reason. The researchers used multiple methods to attempt to determine the content of annonacin (this is important since different methods can give different results)

-A 70kg human (about in the rough global average) would get about 1 mg/kg yearly from eating one Guadeloupe soursop per day, orally administered. This is versus 3.8mg/kg/year (administered in a large dose over a much shorter period) administered intravenously to rats that guaranteed (not "might have" but "definitely had") extreme neurological damage.

-That said, the authors admit that the bio-availability of orally administered annonacin isn't known (i.e. not sure how much makes it to your brain from your gut), so comparing it to intravaneously administration (as with the rats in that other study) isn't likely to be an exact match. A person eating a can of the stuff a day would be reaching about what the rats were getting but that's a lot of freaking fruit.

-Some troubling research on paw paws specificially: I found two studies ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22130466/ ) and ( https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf504500g ) looking at the annonacin content of asmina triloba. The second study was done to address methodological issues in the first study and found a much higher content under optimal extraction conditions, about 7724mg/kg in the paw paw fruit pulp compared to 525mg/kg in the Guadeloupe soursop. That's, ah, a lot. This needs replication but IF the second study is correct then paw paw (at least the ones they tested) potentially has quite a bit more annonacin than the muricatas.

-The first study in the point above is still relevant since it determined that crude pulp extract (not just purified annonacin) was capable of causing neuro-degenerative damage. this also means there might be some kind of synnergistic effects one way or another. Likewise the second study determined that there are multiple isomers (chemical arrangements) of annonacin in paw paw, but it was beyond the scope of the study to determine if that matters in regards to neurodegenerative potential or anything else.

I'm still in the "in moderation seasonally" camp after reading all this, but actually looking at the available data is definitely concerning.

EDIT: Napkin math says that if that second study on paw paw annonacin content is accurate, that guy eating 13.6 kilos per year was getting about 1500mg/kg of annonacin per year, or 4mg/kg/day average which is slightly higher than the equivalent intravenous dose that was definitely giving a bunch of rats pseudo-Parkinson's. I'd imagine the oral availability is lower than intravenous by some significant amount (needs research) but that's higher than the folks in Guadeloupe were getting.

CeeJay, well said.
I was also thinking about comments people would make to me in the past where they would say well, I'm not going to live forever, when it came to smoking, as a way of an excuse for current behavior. Parkinson's and related neurodegenerative conditions are no joke and a crummy way to go..

Yeah, I wouldn't wish something like Parkinson's (or smoking related diseases for that matter) on my worst enemy.

It's interesting that soursop leaves are said to be anti cancerous. I wonder where they are getting that information from and the results of annonacins from the leaves. Should be some articles out somewhere?

If you go to Pubmed and search for "annonacin cancer", you can find most of them I think. there's a number of research studies, in cell cultures or rats (no in-human trials, likely because of the whole known neurotoxin thing).

The first link I posted in this post has the annonacin content of soursop leaves a couple of pages in. Not as high content as I would have thought.

7
Is it really five time per cacao seed?  Maybe on etsy that would be the case?! ha ha ha.  If I get, the seed I'll usually sell around a buck a piece.  Fruit can't be shipped to mainland (idk about Puerto Rico...different rules compared to Hawaii re: shipping to mainland). 

Cupuassu, we have them here, but not super common. I can only think of 5-6 guys that have it fruiting. But i'm sure there are more growing here and there in the islands.

Yeah, etsy's rampant seedflation has been a thing recently, but also viable macambo seems to be legit rare in the states compared to a lot of other stuff.

8
"You might get hit by a bus/ there might be a nuclear holocaust at some point in the future, so you should feel free to go hog-wild without concern on a known neurotoxin" seems like questionable logic to me, of the same kind that landed a bunch of my smoker friends in the lung cancer ward over time, but to each their own. Anybody who's been around someone with Parkinson's should know it probably isn't worth eating a ton of fruit if that's potentially a risk. And I'm saying this as somebody who loves annona fruit, I have skin in the game here.

Also in regards to the "it could be something else" line of thinking: Sure, but it isn't in question that annonacin is a neurotoxin, as Elocious said: it causes brain lesions in dopaminagenic structures when administered to rats or applied to cultured human dopaminagenic brain cells. The dosage required and susceptibility to do the same in live humans may be in debate, but it's just true that annonacin CAN do this at large enough doses. That would suggest caution as the issue being discussed is caused by the loss/damage of dopaminagenic neurons. To use the smoking analogy again, if you saw a cluster of people with lung cancer, and they all smoked a pack a day for years, saying "well they COULD have been exposed to some other carcinogen as children or have a genetic susceptibility" doesn't then lead to "and so smoking slightly fewer than a pack a day is probably fine for the rest of us". You know?
 
All THAT said, it seems to not come up very often in these discussions that the populations in Guadeloupe drink the leaves in tea form, daily in some cases:

"The unusually high number of parkinsonian patients with atypical clinical
features in Guadeloupe and the cross-ethnic representation of the patients
suggested that an environmental toxin might be responsible for the cluster of
cases. This hypothesis was supported by caseĖcontrol studies [3, 18] showing
that patients with atypical parkinsonism consumed significantly more fruit and
infusions or decoctions of leaves from plants of the Annonaceae family, parti-
cularly Annona muricata L. (soursop, guanabana, graviola, corossol) than
patients with I-PD or control subjects. The leaves of these plants are used in
traditional Creole medicine from early childhood to old age, sometimes daily,
for heart and digestive problems, for sedative purposes or to maintain general
health. Comforting the idea that this family of plants played a key role in the
development of the atypical parkinsonian syndrome in Guadeloupe, a similar
clinical entity has also been associated to annonaceae consumption in patients
of Caribbean origin living in London [7] and in PD patients from new Caledonia,
a French Western Pacific island [1][/i]

-from study/analysis here: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-60327-252-0_18

So those people are getting a regular dose over a long period of time beyond just eating the fruit, which could explain why those populations in particular seem to be having this issue as compared to annona-eaters outside the Caribbean. Although, one soursop a day (which is probably more than most of us have access to without, say, an orchard) contained enough annonacin to hit the equivalent human threshold to amounts that cause brain damage in rats: https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.20632 . Which, by the way, is very possibly causing negative effects of some kind well before the pseudo-Parkinson's sets in due to what is being damaged.

Personally I just try to keep my consumption low and seasonal.

EDIT: TLDR of the above is "we know that annonacin causes the kind of brain damage that leads to this exact set of symptoms, but don't know in what dosages how often or what the lowest safe dose is for the average person consuming the fruit but not leaves, or even how much of the toxin is in annonas outside the Muricata family specifically (some other amounts have been studied in paw paw, atemoya and biriba, linked in a comment down below)."

9
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Growing passion fruit up a tree
« on: October 20, 2022, 09:34:13 PM »
I've seen people grow them up palms out here without problem (afaik, maybe they can't seem to climb palm leaves) but they'll choke out other plants. I planted one too close to an orange tree and it was intentionally growing to cover the tree leaves.

10
Interesting concept.  Had a good friend who was a serious "rare" fruit grower who told me that a transplanted plant needed to be oriented in the same direction relative to magnetic north in its new home.  He adhered to that idea with all his plants.  I try to do that, but oriented with the daily travel of the sun. I guess it ends up the same way.

Wild. Stuff like that always sounded a little on the woo side to me,but so do a lot of things around planting that turn out to have some evidentiary basis.

I have absolutely hit this issue with opuntia cactus, though. They'll sunburn if their orientation is changed, but I've also seen them grow weirdly to try and re-twist themselves to their original facing. I figured that was probably mostly the sun but considering today's reading on plants using magnetic fields to sense surroundings, I'm unsure.

11
This research seems to be based around electrically generating a magnetic field with equipment.

Yeah, in all cases showing benefit in the linked studies, afaik the researchers were using it as a pre-treatment similar conceptually to various kinds of soaking pre-treatment (i.e. like a low% hydrogen peroxide bath and not, like, setting it up on a hydrogen peroxide continual drip). It was all low-frequency static fields at relatively low strengths. EDIT: Also it didn't always show greater plant mass depending on the treatment. No bueno if it's similar to that "using too much GA3" thing where it might increase the germination rate but you end up with etiolated rather than stronger plants, although the root growth differences in the beans study is impressive.

When I lived in the Hippy Capital of Australia, it was well known that Basalt dust was a benefit to garden soils.
The local council had to put tar into the blue basalt gravel for roadworks to stop it being pinched for gardens,
and probably being used on "Pot Holes" that were not actually in the road surface, but hidden in the forest.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=paramagnetism+seed+gremination&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I'll check that out later.

I do use quite a bit of (mostly local) basalt in soil mixes now and I believe that I've been getting better results from it but chalk that up to the minerals. Our soil here can be total butts when it comes to freely available nutrients.

12
So I was looking for a completely unrelated research paper and stumbled down a bizarre rabbit hole that I was unaware of and wanted to share. Apparently there are multiple unrelated studies showing an increase in seed germination and in some cases seedling vigor by exposing them to magnetic fields of varying strength as a pre-treatment:

Magnetic field exposure used to increase germination and vigor/ root development of mung beans (with pictures): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261014086_Magnetic-time_model_at_off-season_germination

Magnetic field treatment increasing wheat seed germination rates: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2215153220301252

MF Treatment improving cabbage germination rates and vigor: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282961806_Magnetic_Field_Can_Improve_Germination_Potential_and_Early_Seedling_Vigor_of_Cabbage_Seeds

A larger overview of MF treatment on plants in general: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7570196/

I haven't had a chance to dig into this to look for further details/ bad science yet, but it's interesting that there's a body of research from multiple researchers showing some effect. Needs more study/ replication.

Also REALLY interesting was this paper showing that tomato seed orientation towards a magnetic field, and the strength of that magnetic field, was more consequential to seed germination rates than humidity: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23759543/.

What this all suggests to me, as a layman, is that this is an unexplored and possibly large factor in some seed-sprouting quirks.

Anyway. I'd take all this with a grain of salt; I'm sharing this since it's interesting and related the hobby but probably beyond most peoples' inclination and ability to mess around with. Don't go do something dumb with electro-magnets trying to get illama or something to sprout, please.

13

time for a praying mantis

Lol, some actually got loose in the house from the garden, but I moved them all back outside because I was afraid of stepping on one at 3 AM in the dark. Germinating seeds outside trades the gnats for other problems, notably skinks occasionally digging my seeds up (but also taking care of real fun pests we get out here like bark scorpions).

I recently germinated giant mulchi seeds. I like to use a paper towel and change it every so often so I can see the progress of the seed. 5 out of 6 germinated (one was rotted). Once my seeds germinate I immediately put them in clean soil. All of them came up but then I moved them outside and they rotted back so I put them under grow lights with a humidity cover and 4 of the 5 came back. For my others seeds I like to just put them in dirt, itís easy and cheap. I have found itís better to germinate indoors with more temperature control.

I lost 4 out of 6 mulchi seedlings to moisture issues last year too, they seem pretty touchy about it. The two that survived are doing pretty well in our negative-humidity desert air and a pot of Fox Farms Coco-Loco, though. I've been using that mix or a personal coir heavy mix for every first up-pot (except for the jaboticaba and anything that shows salt sensitivity) due to the plants show less fungal issues. Root rot is a real issue in the summer out here.

14
I've use heat-sterilized and well-rinsed/well-wrung coir after a bath in low% hydrogen peroxide for just about everything this year, and it's worked pretty well. Probably going to switch back to vermiculite for a lot of the "bigger" seeds (araca boi-sized and bigger) as those seem to struggle in the coir for some reason. Prior to that I had damping off issues, even in humid vermiculite a couple of times. The coir is remarkably anti-fungal.

One thing I haven't figured out yet is how to keep the fungus gnats from eating the roots on my just-sprouted annonas...

15
Banana Yucca (Yucca baccata) - Texas/Western U.S. friends??

They're running about $25 bucks for a 5 gallon that's a few years old (10-12" from the pot rim) at the cheaper nursery around the corner from me and was thinking about picking up another myself anyway. If you'd like, I'd be willing to figure out shipping cost for one and ship it at nursery cost+shipping if it's within your price range. I'd probably have to bag the roots to reduce weight.

If you're willing to wait another 1-2 years* for fruit, ArizonaCactusGrowers on Etsy has a couple smaller ones left, and I have bought from them before without issues.

*Possibly a little longer in either case; I've noticed out here that they can take a year or so to get established in a new location before they fruit even if they're "fruiting age" but ymmv.

16
Bellamytrees.com/seeds

Check them out guys! Thank you and please let us know if you have any questions!

Nice new seed selection! Gonna be interesting seeing more Cerrado species around.

I have a quick question actually, if that's okay: do you have a suggestion on a good growing medium for the E. Langsdorfii? Mine from a previous order are just sprouted and about ready to transfer, and this is my first time growing/tending that species.

17
Ceejay, yes, sometimes the quality from Fruitwood isn't great.  I'm usually able to revive most of their plants back to health though and it's hard to find some of the genetics they offer.  I pretty much always keep plants I get from them in shade after I pot them up for a few weeks.

Thanks for validating my experience! Glad to know that I'm not the only one.

Additional data point though, I decided right after writing this to give them another try with a small order, and the seedlings got here fast in MUCH better shape than my first batch. So maybe I did just get a bum batch or something happened in transit the first time.

18
Could it just be burn from the grow lights? In the last pic the internodal length looks really short (i.e. maybe too much light). Even the one I have in full sun most of the day is more stretched out. It doesn't really look like my green sapotes. Mine aren't grafted so that could account for it, idk. The leaves are also darker green than mine, and less elongated.

Hey thanks Nate! I'm new to the green sapote game so I appreciate the weigh-in. I haven't had this one for too long, just a couple of weeks really, got it from Lara Farms. It might well be grow light related; it's not directly under one and it's not a super-strong light, but maybe the spectrum is wrong for it. I just haven't started getting it acclimated to conditions outside yet (and it's on mamey stock so it's going to have to come back inside this winter anyway...)

Not sure about the leaves or internodal length, maybe that's down to variety? It's a "Whitman", maybe your seeds are from a different lineage? I know I've seen some pictures on here of wildly varying fruit shape, so maybe leaves too.

19
Which feijoa is self pollinating?

According to New Zealand growers, "Unique" is the only confirmed self pollinating feijoa named cultivar, although some of the other NZ varieties are allegedly self-pollinating. Wish they weren't such a pain to graft...


Fruitwood nursery regularly sells seedlings of Mark Albert varieties for reasonable prices.
https://fruitwoodnursery.com/

Janet

I got about fifteen rooted seedlings from fruitwood earlier this year of various types, and all of them were struggling (brown tips and severe chlorosis) when I got them. All but two eventually perished and those two are probably still not going to make it. I don't know if I just got a bad batch from them or what, since I'm told fruitwood is usually solid, but that was a pretty cruddy experience.

20
Great topic. I've had two of the New Zealand commercial varieties but unfortunately they were not marked; one was fantastic and one was so-so. I got seedlings from both though so I suppose we'll see in a few years  ;D Hoping the Unique in my parents' back yard will fruit this year so that I can try that one.

Also worth noting for anyone with a miracle fruit tree that even the so-so feijoa taste pretty great on miracle fruit, imho (feijoa is probably my favorite thing to eat with miracle fruit besides oro blanco grapefruit).

21
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Brown spots w/ yellow halos on green sapote?
« on: October 09, 2022, 08:16:30 AM »
Hey all,

I have a young grafted green sapote that's developed some brown spots with yellow halos on some of the leaves. I'm guessing that this is either bacterial or fungal but wanted to check in with the folks here in case someone recognized it or had treatment tips, before I tried something to treat it. Pics below, thanks in advance for any advice.





22
Ah that sucks, hope up-righting it works.

I'd take some cuttings, would pay for shipping, sent you a PM.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Planting Fruit Trees Near Queen Palm Tree
« on: September 19, 2022, 01:10:27 PM »
I've got a couple of pineapple guava relatively close to a queen palm plus some shrubs and no problems yet for either the fruit trees or the palm. Queen palm roots are noninvasive, they just go wide to anchor the tree.

My concern would be for the queen palm, depending on what you're growing. Those palms with non-invasive roots (not just queens but Washingtonia species as well, like the Mexican fan palms) can get throttled by some other invasive roots; the previous owner of my property accidentally killed two established adult palms by planting a willow acacia nearby that proceeded to throttle them, but those have REALLY invasive roots. Probably not gonna happen with most fruit trees.

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Old talk by UC avocado curator Julie Frink where she mentions the aravaipa at the 1-hour mark: https://youtu.be/c7OAmGRQ8OE?t=3605

An old interview with Doug Jones (who I *think* is still the head of the Arizona chapter of the CRFG) about the aravaipa where he starts talking about the taste at 8:30-8:40ish mark: https://youtu.be/SfOxf3CZ6bY?t=497 , Doug might have had a financial interest here (he was the one who found the original Aravaipa tree and initially propagated it) but he's also a local expert.

Both of them echo the same thing, that it's not the best tasting avocado (Julie mentions there are better options if you don't have to deal with the cold). Matches my experience, I honestly didn't see a major difference between the one that I had and the average store-bought avocado (which some people might think is god-awful but we don't have the right climate, soil or water for the good stuff).

What's weird here is that locally and online I've heard/seen reviews all over the place, to the point that I've privately wondered if more than one strain of these running around (seedling maybe) or something else otherwise being sold as an aravaipa.

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PM sent if you have some left. Mystery eugenia sounds intriguing.

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