Anyone in South Florida growing Etrog?

[Hollywood]

High holidays are approaching and I prefer to buy local as opposed to ordering off the internet. (Oh, who am I kidding; if I can't find a local etrog I'll just use a lemon.)

[fruitlovers]

High holidays are approaching and I prefer to buy local as opposed to ordering off the internet. (Oh, who am I kidding; if I can't find a local etrog I'll just use a lemon.)

Etrog should grow fine there, grows great here. Very easy to grow your own.

[bsbullie]

Unfortunately Etrog, the yellow citron used for the Sukkot holiday, is much like Buddha's Hand in SFla...the plant is nowhere to be found (I have tried to get either/both with absolutely NO success).  To go one step further, the attorney I work with is orthodox to the extreme with friends/neighbors who grow tropical fruit and are members of the Broward Rare Fruit Counsel and I am sad to say they order their over the internet...

[Patrick]

I have a Buddha's Hand in my front yard thats covered in fruit but they are still green.  I had a few ripen a couple weeks ago, they smell wonderful.  I purchased my tree two years ago from Harris Citrus north of us here in Florida.  I was going to post a link to the Buddhas Hand but all they sell now is Etrog! I was unable to find it locally two years ago.

http://www.harriscitrus.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=166

[Hollywood]

Sounds like a pain. Only 1 out of 3 are deemed kosher for the largest, most experienced Etrog farmer in the U.S. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/80571/etrog-man Also, I think I read that Etrog can't be from a grafted tree- that would certainly increase the level of commitment necessary to grow it.

[murahilin]

Sounds like a pain. Only 1 out of 3 are deemed kosher for the largest, most experienced Etrog farmer in the U.S. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/80571/etrog-man Also, I think I read that Etrog can't be from a grafted tree- that would certainly increase the level of commitment necessary to grow it.

I was reading into the rules regarding the kosher status of the Etrog and the no grafted trees thing confused me because they are implying that the grafted tree is no longer a "pure" etrog but there is no DNA transfer between rootstock and scion. Have you found anything else explaining why no grafted trees?

Edit: I found this: http://vbm-torah.org/sukkot/suk64rya.htm
I am reading it right now and I will comment on it in a few...

Edit 2: The arguments against the grafted Etrog were weak. I should become a Rabbi and declare it kosher based on science...

[bsbullie]

This is some input from the aforemention orthodox attorney I work with:

"The little that I know is that it is very hard to get a “kosher” esrog.  A friend actually has a tree, but he would not use the fruit for sukkot.  He’s only had a few fruit and they do not come in well.  I’m not sure why it is so hard to get a kosher one.  (By kosher, I mean “proper” or “fit”, not kosher to eat, as they would be kosher to eat if you were so inclined.)  I once visited an esrog farm in Israel.  As soon as the fruit is young, they place a protective cover around each one.  they need a lot of care. 

There’s a good movie on this call Ushpizin. "

[nullzero]

Four Winds Growers citrus growers sells Etrog. Most likely grafted though, and they can't ship to FL for you guys . Sounds like best plan would be obtaining Etrog seeds and growing it out.

[Patrick]

Be sure to only grow seeds from a non-grafted Etrog! Also, how would you substitute lemon for Etrog if its from a grafted tree?

Something is surely not kosher with all these rules..

[bsbullie]

Keep in mind there are various levels of "Kosher"...one is just eating foods that fall under the kosher classification, which any fruit, grafted or not, would qualify.  Then there are various levels of following kosher rules which is most determined by what level of the religion you adhere to.

[HMHausman]

This is my problem with Orthodoxy....Jewish or otherwise.  People take things literally and then, though the use of analogy and arguement, move into new and previously unspecified rules, prescriptions and regulations that were never actually specified by the original scripture (the alleged word of God). 

In Leviticus, it states words to the following effect (depending on which translation you want to quote):

23-40------ And ye shall take you on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm-trees, and boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook, and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days

Nowhere does the fruit used in the ceremony specify that it must be a citrus fruit called Etrog....never mind whether it is from a grafted tree or not.  So...way back when, wherever this custom began, someone used a lemon cv. etrog and that became a tradition passed orally from generation to generation.  But if you accept the old testament verse from Leviticus as the complete and infallible word of God, either directly or through the inspiration to whatever man first  put the verse into writing......there is nothing that really prevents you from using any fruit from any goodly tree.  This whole business of worrying about whether the tree is grafted or not is taking the issue of compliance with the law to a ridiculous extreme.  This mostly occurred from centuries of rabbis sitting around analyzing, hypothesizing and specifying how one could make themselves more holy by sticking the rigors of the law to the nth degree.....and beyond.  It really does get to the absurd.  But, if this following of tradition as it has been handed down is comforting to some....then by all means, go for it.  For me, it just makes no sense. 

Harry

[BENDERSGROVE]

Harry,ive been led to believe Mangoes were the fruit of the G-ds! at least on this forum!!! lol

[BENDERSGROVE]

I remember a few years ago when the canker police were running amok, one of the tv stations did a report of an orthodox family on Miami Beach that tried to save their Etrog tree on religious grounds,they unfortunately failed and the 20 year old tree grown from seed fell to the chainsaws of the canker gestapo. It was a sad way for a beautiful tree that was not infected fall to the ludicrous 1900 ft rule.

[fruitlovers]

Sounds like a pain. Only 1 out of 3 are deemed kosher for the largest, most experienced Etrog farmer in the U.S. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/80571/etrog-man Also, I think I read that Etrog can't be from a grafted tree- that would certainly increase the level of commitment necessary to grow it.

Not from grafts, but cuttings are ok, and etrogs (as well as Buddha's hand) start super easy and are fast from cuttings. So growing the plant is super easy, only meeting high requirements for marketing the fruits is hard. But if you grow them just for yourself that is not a problem at all!

[fruitlovers]

Sounds like a pain. Only 1 out of 3 are deemed kosher for the largest, most experienced Etrog farmer in the U.S. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/80571/etrog-man Also, I think I read that Etrog can't be from a grafted tree- that would certainly increase the level of commitment necessary to grow it.

I was reading into the rules regarding the kosher status of the Etrog and the no grafted trees thing confused me because they are implying that the grafted tree is no longer a "pure" etrog but there is no DNA transfer between rootstock and scion. Have you found anything else explaining why no grafted trees?

Edit: I found this: http://vbm-torah.org/sukkot/suk64rya.htm
I am reading it right now and I will comment on it in a few...

Edit 2: The arguments against the grafted Etrog were weak. I should become a Rabbi and declare it kosher based on science...

These rules are not based on modern science. The jews were farmers long ago and have a very detailed traditon and  rules of farming. This is not based on the Torah, but some other books and rules called the Orla. I spoke to a friend in Israel about this and he was explaining some of this to me. Some of the rules are very interesting and to me mysterious, like one were you can't harvest fruits of trees every seventh year?

[HMHausman]

These rules are not based on modern science. The jews were farmers long ago and have a very detailed traditon and  rules of farming. This is not based on the Torah, but some other books and rules called the Orla. I spoke to a friend in Israel about this and he was explaining some of this to me. Some of the rules are very interesting and to me mysterious, like one were you can't harvest fruits of trees every seventh year?

Its Orlah.....and it is certainly based upon the Torah (Old Testament commandments.  In Leviticus 19:23 it provides this rule:

Leviticus 19:23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[a] For three years you are to consider it forbidden ; it must not be eaten.

19:24       In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD.

19:25       But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.


The law is very clear..... "when you enter the land"you can't eat the fruit of a tree that is planted for a three year period after planting and in the fourth year the fruit is holy and again cannot be consumed.  In the 5th year, you are able to eat what will be a bountiful harvest.  Orlah...by the way, means uncircumcised.....in an unconsecrated sense, I guess. There are lots of arguments about how this law should be applied.  So for example, a papaya.....may not be around in the fifth year. So the Rabbis argue that it is not a tree, but an herb and therefore not subject to the rules of Orlah.  What about potted plants?  Does the time in the pots count for the statutory time prescription? Is this rule only intended to apply to the time when the Jews first enetered the promised land?  Or, does it apply to all plantings in any land anywhere?

So when you say "mysterious" you are right.  One is certainly free to question the truth of, the translation of and meaning of the actual scripture Jews call Torah. However, no one argues that the Old Testament (The Torah) is the basis of all of God's law for Jews and other believers to adhere to.  However,  what the practice of Judaism has become (especially as you become more Orthodox) is an amalgamation between what is actually written in The Torah and what the many commentaries have been over the centuries by various Rabbis trying to come to an understanding about what is meant by what was written in the Torah.  Their interpretation combined with the oral tradition has created many, many more rules, regulations, prescriptions and commandments for the ultra orthodox to fret over and try to comply with....all based upon interpretation of guys, back in the day, their day that is....with all of their cutural biases and leanings playing upon how they interpreted the actual law (scripture).  So it is just a question as to how religious you want to be, as Rob pointed out.  The old joke is that if three Jews got stranded on a deserted island, by the following year their would be a Reform, Conservative and an Orthodox temple on the island to serve the needs of "the community." The moral of the story is..........practice your religion as you like, but don't look down on or judge anyone else because they decide to interpret or practice their religion differently than you are or than you do.  Can I get an Amen to that? So, Katie, if you decide to use a lemon instead of being gouged for an Etrog......you have my blessing, for what it is worth. 

Harry

[BMc]

Luckily my land was unpromised and Im heathen.
So, can heathens eat the fruit off orthodox trees in years 1-3?

[fruitlovers]

As i understand all these rules are summarily circumvented in Israel even by the most orthodox. For example, on years that fruit harvesting is forbidden the land will be leased to a Bedouin, who then is able to reap and sell the fruit and transfer the funds. Maybe all these rules made sense in Biblical times, but now they seem very out of place. Religions need to be flexible.  cultrues and people also need to be flexible, otherwise they either become extinct or relics of the past.

[Hollywood]

Thanks you for your blessing, Harry.   It might interest you to know that the rabbis started making all the new rules when they realized they couldn't rebuild the temple. Judaism was a very simple religion in the days of the temple. You committed sin X? Sacrifice 2 pigeons. You committed sin Y? Sacrifice a lamb. Etc. But no temple meant no sacrifices. No sacrifices meant no opportunity to repent. And when do Jews all feel compelled to attend Shul? Yom Kipper, when it is time to repent. So the rabbies realized they had a problem. Unless they recast the rules, the community and religion would become lost.

Whatever else you may think about that, it worked. Historically, with the continuous persecution, assimilation, etc., there is no logical reason why the Jews should have survived. But we did, and all the crazy rules have been a glue. Jonathan Sarna has written books on this, which I intend to read someday.

All that aside, a lot of people use the Etrog not out of a literal interpretation but out of tradition. And there are some that would argue it makes absolutely no difference because the result is the same. I DO feel kind of weird using a lemon instead of an Etrog, but it fits better into my sustainable agriculture values, which I can then fit into my larger value set and thereby justify it.

[fruitlovers]

These rules are not based on modern science. The jews were farmers long ago and have a very detailed traditon and  rules of farming. This is not based on the Torah, but some other books and rules called the Orla. I spoke to a friend in Israel about this and he was explaining some of this to me. Some of the rules are very interesting and to me mysterious, like one were you can't harvest fruits of trees every seventh year?

Its Orlah.....and it is certainly based upon the Torah (Old Testament commandments.  In Leviticus 19:23 it provides this rule:

Leviticus 19:23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[a] For three years you are to consider it forbidden ; it must not be eaten.

19:24       In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD.

19:25       But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.


The law is very clear..... "when you enter the land"you can't eat the fruit of a tree that is planted for a three year period after planting and in the fourth year the fruit is holy and again cannot be consumed.  In the 5th year, you are able to eat what will be a bountiful harvest.  Orlah...by the way, means uncircumcised.....in an unconsecrated sense, I guess. There are lots of arguments about how this law should be applied.  So for example, a papaya.....may not be around in the fifth year. So the Rabbis argue that it is not a tree, but an herb and therefore not subject to the rules of Orlah.  What about potted plants?  Does the time in the pots count for the statutory time prescription? Is this rule only intended to apply to the time when the Jews first enetered the promised land?  Or, does it apply to all plantings in any land anywhere?

So when you say "mysterious" you are right.  One is certainly free to question the truth of, the translation of and meaning of the actual scripture Jews call Torah. However, no one argues that the Old Testament (The Torah) is the basis of all of God's law for Jews and other believers to adhere to.  However,  what the practice of Judaism has become (especially as you become more Orthodox) is an amalgamation between what is actually written in The Torah and what the many commentaries have been over the centuries by various Rabbis trying to come to an understanding about what is meant by what was written in the Torah.  Their interpretation combined with the oral tradition has created many, many more rules, regulations, prescriptions and commandments for the ultra orthodox to fret over and try to comply with....all based upon interpretation of guys, back in the day, their day that is....with all of their cutural biases and leanings playing upon how they interpreted the actual law (scripture).  So it is just a question as to how religious you want to be, as Rob pointed out.  The old joke is that if three Jews got stranded on a deserted island, by the following year their would be a Reform, Conservative and an Orthodox temple on the island to serve the needs of "the community." The moral of the story is..........practice your religion as you like, but don't look down on or judge anyone else because they decide to interpret or practice their religion differently than you are or than you do.  Can I get an Amen to that? So, Katie, if you decide to use a lemon instead of being gouged for an Etrog......you have my blessing, for what it is worth. 

Harry

What i was told is that all the specific rules are all mentioned in commentary, not in the Torah, and i think this is correct. But i'm certainly no Biblical scholar. But i checked it on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeraim There is an interesting section about leaving one part of the field to feed the poor.

[fruitlovers]

.Etrog is a special fruit, whether you are jewish or not. Has a wonderful fragrance when you bring it indoors that permeates the whole room. Very different from a lemon. I have a bunch of etrogs growing on my tree right now. It's a super easy plant to grow, very vigorous. I like Buddha's hand for same reason. I find it interesting that 2 religions, both unconnected chose citron as a sacrament. Is that merely coincidence?

[Tim]

Amen Katie...Harry. Oh wait...i'm a buddhist 

[Tim]

As a passive observer of Buddhism, I've never heard or seen of Buddha's hand citron at the many temples we frequent until I got into this tropical fruit obsession. Without further research, I'd always ASSumed it's just a fancy name someone came up with to sell the fruits. Could you please enlighten me as to why it's got anything to do with Buddhism?

.Etrog is a special fruit, whether you are jewish or not. Has a wonderful fragrance when you bring it indoors that permeates the whole room. Very different from a lemon. I have a bunch of etrogs growing on my tree right now. It's a super easy plant to grow, very vigorous. I like Buddha's hand for same reason. I find it interesting that 2 religions, both unconnected chose citron as a sacrament. Is that merely coincidence?

[davidgarcia899]

The claim is that the fruit looks like a hand held in prayer. My tree always produces the completely closed hands, but someone told me that some trees produce open hands and that those are called goblin's fingers.

[Tim]

Exactly my point ... what does it have to do with buddhism?  Everybody prays, not just buddhists.

The claim is that the fruit looks like a hand held in prayer. My tree always produces the completely closed hands, but someone told me that some trees produce open hands and that those are called goblin's fingers.