Author Topic: Help ID Persimmon Variety  (Read 1048 times)

sc4001992

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Help ID Persimmon Variety
« on: June 01, 2022, 01:53:04 PM »
I accidentally cut off this grafted branch from my multi-grafted tree.

Can anyone help me identify what variety this is from the small fruits. I can look up what varieties I grafted on this tree later tonight.
It doesn't look like my Matsumoto fruits which are much larger on my tree, and I don't recognize it.









« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 01:56:14 PM by sc4001992 »

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2022, 12:10:02 AM »
These turned out to be the rootstock fruits, Diospyros virginiana. The fruits ripened and turned a nice orange color. I'm letting it sit on the counter until it gets a little soft and taste it.

Galatians522

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2022, 09:58:48 PM »
These turned out to be the rootstock fruits, Diospyros virginiana. The fruits ripened and turned a nice orange color. I'm letting it sit on the counter until it gets a little soft and taste it.

Make sure it gets very soft. Some of the American types I have tried were still slightly astringent when they first softened to "ripe" by Asian standards.

Galatians522

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2022, 10:31:20 PM »



Some fruits off an American Persimmon I found in the wild that were surprisingly large. 1.5" -- 2" I call it Blue Moon.

Jaboticaba45

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2022, 11:12:20 PM »
I used to collect them when I was a little kid. my family soaked them in brine? to help with astringency.
Made it better but why bother when you can grow improved ones?

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2022, 11:14:25 PM »
Since I let one rootstock shoot grow out, now it has many fruits, I'm hoping it can be used for pollinating my other varieties that I have grafted on the tree which are PVNA types.

mangoba

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2022, 01:08:19 AM »



Some fruits off an American Persimmon I found in the wild that were surprisingly large. 1.5" -- 2" I call it Blue Moon.

I love it! Please maintain it as it looks like a winner.

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2022, 02:48:28 AM »
Galatians522, your fruits are large. The ones on my shoots are smaller, looks clean but probably half the size of your fruits.

I cut one and tried it today, taste is getting better, getting a little sweet, just slightly astringent flavor. I will need to wait until it gets soft and try it again. I still have about a dozen fruits on my tree so I will eat some in another week.




sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2022, 03:05:33 AM »
Ryan, I have good varieties on this tree, the main variety is Matsumoto wase. The fruits all ripened and completed in October, tasted very good.

Here's a few photos of my fruits. These fruits are usually sweeter and tastes better than Fuyu or Jiro. Has more juice than my Hyakume even though it is a non-astringent variety.




CarolinaZone

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2022, 06:22:15 PM »
Galatians522, your fruits are large. The ones on my shoots are smaller, looks clean but probably half the size of your fruits.

I cut one and tried it today, taste is getting better, getting a little sweet, just slightly astringent flavor. I will need to wait until it gets soft and try it again. I still have about a dozen fruits on my tree so I will eat some in another week.




You sure that's an American? I have never seen an American with that shape of seed cavity. Could you take picture next to a quarter? To be honest if it ripens sweet that may be worth cloning.

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2022, 07:31:46 PM »
This was the rootstock on my Matsumoto persimmon tree I purchased a long time ago (25+ yrs) from a nursery here. The fruit does look clean, it is small but I like the color. This rootstock seems to grow strong so I'm letting one branch grow for the flowers next season. I will be grafting more varieties on this tree, so far the main variety is Matsumoto, I also have Saijo and Hyakume grafted and will be adding Jiro, Fuyu, and my dad's large unknown (PCNA) variety.





« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 07:34:13 PM by sc4001992 »

Galatians522

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2022, 08:04:02 PM »
Galatians522, your fruits are large. The ones on my shoots are smaller, looks clean but probably half the size of your fruits.

I cut one and tried it today, taste is getting better, getting a little sweet, just slightly astringent flavor. I will need to wait until it gets soft and try it again. I still have about a dozen fruits on my tree so I will eat some in another week.




You sure that's an American? I have never seen an American with that shape of seed cavity. Could you take picture next to a quarter? To be honest if it ripens sweet that may be worth cloning.

I am no authority on the difference between species. But it is my understanding that American persimmons that get pollinated by Asian are almost always seedless (and vice versa) because of different chromisome levels. I have seen some American fruits that were that general shape. If the rootstock is American it will eventually put out rootsuckers (sometimes at a fair distance from the tree). I don't think Asian rootstocks do that. Often the root suckers are mistaken for seedlings.

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2022, 08:38:51 PM »
Yes, this branch is the rootstock, I can see that the shoot is growing from below the graft union.

CarolinaZone

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2022, 11:09:40 AM »
Galatians522, your fruits are large. The ones on my shoots are smaller, looks clean but probably half the size of your fruits.

I cut one and tried it today, taste is getting better, getting a little sweet, just slightly astringent flavor. I will need to wait until it gets soft and try it again. I still have about a dozen fruits on my tree so I will eat some in another week.




You sure that's an American? I have never seen an American with that shape of seed cavity. Could you take picture next to a quarter? To be honest if it ripens sweet that may be worth cloning.

I am no authority on the difference between species. But it is my understanding that American persimmons that get pollinated by Asian are almost always seedless (and vice versa) because of different chromisome levels. I have seen some American fruits that were that general shape. If the rootstock is American it will eventually put out rootsuckers (sometimes at a fair distance from the tree). I don't think Asian rootstocks do that. Often the root suckers are mistaken for seedlings.
I pretty sure that is an asian persimmon. I looked for a picture of ab american with that seed pattern and I couldnt find one. We need to see one that mushy ripe to know.

My Nikita's gift  trees had seeds this year but my Rossyanka didn't. There are American persimmon trees all other the neighborhood. I'm curious about why my trees do that.

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2022, 11:22:32 AM »
Carolinazone, interesting comment you make about the rootstock of American types, I did not know that.

" If the rootstock is American it will eventually put out rootsuckers (sometimes at a fair distance from the tree). I don't think Asian rootstocks do that. Often the root suckers are mistaken for seedlings."

I have 3 adult asian persimmon trees, all over 30 yrs old in ground. I tried to cut down one of the trees since it was to close to a block wall (property border) but I did not have time so just used a chain saw to cut it down to 12" from ground level. That stump ended up having the rootstock growing up, and that tree has many of these root suckers you mention that came out 12" or more away from the stump (trunk) of the tree that is cut off. Now that rootstock branches are tall, over 8ft and it has never had any fruits yet. It will be interesting to see what type of fruit it has. I can see that the branches are much more vigorous and grow wild, maybe 6 ft per year or more. Much different from the rootstock that I have on the Matsumoto persimmon photos above which grows more like the named variety branches.

CarolinaZone

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2022, 02:51:54 PM »
Carolinazone, interesting comment you make about the rootstock of American types, I did not know that.

" If the rootstock is American it will eventually put out rootsuckers (sometimes at a fair distance from the tree). I don't think Asian rootstocks do that. Often the root suckers are mistaken for seedlings."

I have 3 adult asian persimmon trees, all over 30 yrs old in ground. I tried to cut down one of the trees since it was to close to a block wall (property border) but I did not have time so just used a chain saw to cut it down to 12" from ground level. That stump ended up having the rootstock growing up, and that tree has many of these root suckers you mention that came out 12" or more away from the stump (trunk) of the tree that is cut off. Now that rootstock branches are tall, over 8ft and it has never had any fruits yet. It will be interesting to see what type of fruit it has. I can see that the branches are much more vigorous and grow wild, maybe 6 ft per year or more. Much different from the rootstock that I have on the Matsumoto persimmon photos above which grows more like the named variety branches.
Actually that was Galatians talking about the root suckers. I'm not that smart ;D ;D ;D ;D

sc4001992

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Re: Help ID Persimmon Variety
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2022, 04:57:59 PM »
Oops, my mistake.

"Make sure it gets very soft. Some of the American types I have tried were still slightly astringent when they first softened to "ripe" by Asian standards."

Galatians522, I do have a few fruits left on the tree that has a bag/net to keep the birds from eating it, I will wait until they fall off the branch to check the taste one last time.