Author Topic: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?  (Read 1264 times)

lajos93

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"Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« on: September 17, 2022, 10:38:06 AM »
Saw a guy on Youtube talking about how you can plant a bunch of seeds from the supermarket outside in Zone 8-8b, maybe give it protection when it falls below minus 1-2 C. (and you can push it further as it grows )
And if it survives then you've potentially created a cold hardy avocado rootstock (Regardless of the origin of the seed)

Now you have to work with a large number of seeds, maybe only one in every 10 survives

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2gaZ6i4qZQ

Is this legit doable? Im starting this experiment, just wanna get some insight from someone who might have succeeded already

Galatians522

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2022, 01:05:01 PM »
You would likely have better luck starting seedlings of Mexican avocados that are known to be more hardy already. That will increase your likelihood of success.

Avoman

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2022, 05:11:13 PM »
Zone 8 on the fence I wouldnt do it,better off pursuing projects better suited for zone 7 or 8 kiwi grapes etc

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2022, 05:14:06 PM »
Most Avocados in the supermarket are from large groves of the same variety. Probably with another variety as pollinator ?
Seedlings will be variable but maybe not that much ?
Zutano seeds and Reed seeds from farms are used as rootstocks, seedlings from each var are close enough, slight variations not too great.
Other rootstock variety seeds are similar, yes variable but not enough be unusable variants.
From 50 Zutano seedlings, I got about 5 odd ones, different leaf shape, closer nodes etc.
My point is probably that there will be cold variance in seedlings, but they could also be mainly fairly similar ?
Agree, probably better to start with a Mexican origin type if possible.
Also be careful of multi factor selection.
You are looking for cold tolerance, but vigour and root disease resistance will also play a part in the survival of your seedling trees.
If you want to favour cold tolerance, you may need to protect seedlings from being killed by another factor.
i.e. the most cold tolerant may not be the most vigorous, or most disease resistant.
Any chance of collecting seeds from a Cafe or Restaurant that uses Avocados ??

From the video, he could be starting the seeds in bigger pots to get more root development
Bacon var is known for cold tolerance in Australia.


Galatians522

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2022, 10:14:35 PM »
I am no avocado expert, but another thought occured to me. I believe most store avocados are Guatemalan types like Hass. Don't they have a long ripening period? It would be a real shame to create a hardy tree that never produced fruit because it got frozen off before it could ne harvested each year.

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2022, 01:52:19 AM »
The question came from a member in Hungary, not sure where their Avocados would come from, maybe Israel, Spain etc ?
As for other parts of Europe, could be coming from USA, Mexico, South America, Australia ? You are probably right about the types available,  ( or Hybrids of  ) but might be a few more diverse types also ?

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2022, 03:06:14 PM »
Thanks for the comments.

I know a cold hardy originated seed would be the best but they sell it no less then 10-15 USD each on ebay, I bought a few already, but I wanna try it in larger quantities to make sure im getting the best of the best and thats not feasable for that price

(Quick note, it would be inside a greenhouse with at worst Zone 9 temps)

pagnr obviously those other 2 points are to be taken seriously as well, but the cold is our weakest link, Im going for at least zone 8 tolerant avocadoes, so eg. people with unheated greenhouses could use them

Galatians522
Its just the rootstock, I'd graft a mexicola grande/stewart/bacon/del rio etc.. on it whatever that can handle cold fairly well and tastes good.

If there's anyone who've made a Zone 8 hardy Hass originated seedling that would be super interesting.
If we waited until it fruits naturally without grafting I think the plant has enough intelligence once it gets to that age to realize not to flower/fruit at a time thatd make it impossible for it to mature

« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 03:09:08 PM by lajos93 »

CarolinaZone

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2022, 03:35:24 PM »
I don't know. Anyways...Have you seen the video of the avocado that is HUUUGGGEEE that is growing ouside in London?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=554u7KB81M8

Keala Grower

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2022, 05:10:16 PM »
They should be shipping that scion wood world wide

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2022, 06:10:42 PM »
The London video is great, don't miss the follow up with a few more trees and a fruit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47evMZyBtXQ
It would be interesting to find out what variety they are ?
Suspect seedlings, but could be grafted ?
Looks a bit like a Bacon type.
Also seem be fairly old trees, so not seed from recent varieties.
I think there are some other places in the UK with very mild climates ( coastal ) that can grow tougher subtropicals.

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2022, 12:23:03 AM »
Yes, would be nice to know more about that tree
Although south London is Zone8b-9, so it isnt even reaching its threshold in terms of cold hardiness

cassowary

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2022, 06:15:12 AM »
You probably need a population closer to a 1000 to have a significant chance of a noticeable genome mutation towards cold hardiness.
And if you can get avocados from different avocado farms it could increase the diversity as they might use different "pollinator" tree's.

Would advise to sow them in large planting beds and not pots, and pull some some of them out early based on growth vigor. So For example: you might start out with 1000 seeds but at year 1 you might just have 100 left or less cause you have eradicated low vigor trees.

I am breeding avocados but selecting for drought hardiness. I do it a bit different then I explained above. I sow the seeds in my native soil (no cultivation) and neglect them. Sowed over 500 seeds the last 5 years and have about 20 avocado trees that are thriving with the neglect. Eventually they will be evaluated based on fruit quality etc.

On the contrary, the 20 potted avocados I planted except one have died. So for me mass direct seeding them this way let's me grow avocado in an an area were people say you "can't grow them".

I think it is due to genetic variability but also about the tree being able to put their huge taproot deep into the soil. Having that healthy tap root might help with surviving cool temperature also.


Peace,
cassowary
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 06:28:59 AM by cassowary »
For seed and plant swap/barter enter “tropical seeds” @ https://publicnote.com/

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2022, 01:27:06 PM »
How did you get that quantity of seeds? There's no easy way I can do in my country to make that happen

Im thinking if I could somehow organize an Avocado seed collection event where everyone would sell me theirs for a low price is the only way

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2022, 06:26:57 PM »
Any chance of collecting seeds from a Cafe or Restaurant that uses Avocados ??
They are widely used in Australia in those places. Not sure in your country.
Another possibility is Supermarkets that need to discard over ripe fruit .
You could also buy them in bulk and give them to friends, to get the seed back.
I do this here, but I am in a growing area so they only cost me $1 each off farm.


"Although south London is Zone8b-9, so it isnt even reaching its threshold in terms of cold hardiness"
Ok, but the tree is growing very well, not just sitting there having a hard time.
You are probably better off starting with seed of cold tolerant varieties, or at least keeping to commercial hybrids of Mexican Guatemalan, which are pretty common.

Cassowary, not sure I fully agree with the survival of the fittest for a breeding program in all cases, but I do know other people in FNQLD that grew Avocados from seed by throwing them hard out the kitchen window into the Jungle, and they got a lot to grow.

cassowary

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 03:34:51 AM »
pagnr, i agree with you I think..
 the survival of the fittest "method" is suitable for getting the fittest individuals, IMO not suitable if people looking to breed dwarfs or for specific fruit characteristics to mention two parameters.
But I think the basis of any breed should be that it is fit for the environment it is meant to grow in as it lays a good foundation and might reduce agronomic inputs, such as fungicide for fungal infection or irrigation etc.

IMO, every farm should breed their own material on site. And also keep that program going somewhat throughout the life span of the farm so that cultivars keep up with the evolution of the biome on the site. Could be tricky for the farmer when he want's to aggregate his fruit with the packers since they all might look a bit different from each other. But maybe possible if some appearance, taste and storage tolerances are set in union with other farmers. 

It's a great idea to get the seeds of the cafe's and supermarkets, will keep my out for that opportunity :D
Last year though I got hundreds for free (not seconds, good ones) since the supermarkets are still importing avo's from NZ during AU avo season. Idk what their doing, seams out of order to me.

peace
For seed and plant swap/barter enter “tropical seeds” @ https://publicnote.com/

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2022, 08:50:39 AM »
the survival of the fittest "method" is suitable for getting the fittest individuals, IMO not suitable if people looking to breed dwarfs or for specific fruit characteristics to mention two parameters.

Yes, less vigorous types can be grafted onto rootstocks overcome that problem. Avocados have a few rootstock choices for different situations, Citrus has a wide range of choices.
As I remember there were a lot of Avocado seedling vars in FNQLD, some got to markets, a lot of types on the Tablelands on peoples fences, a few in the bush.

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2022, 03:09:44 PM »
Ok

Im thinking about approaching vegan restaurants as the most realistic option

but how could I get some from supermarkets? (because that would be the best) I dont think they'll just hand me over the thrown out avocadoes, or what can do I to make that happen?  Get the attention of the manager somehow and talk to him, that sounds to much of a stretch.

Obviously they sell sometimes cheaper ones on discount every once in a while but its rare and it would still take years to accumulate the amount I want in that pace

@cassovary, how did you get a 100 for free?

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2022, 10:42:47 PM »
Mexican Race Avocados, the more cold hardy type, have Anise scented leaves. Hybrid varieties can have some anise scent too.
You may be able to screen seedlings for Mexican ancestry ?
It may or may not be directly linked to cold tolerance, but it could be an interesting marker to watch out for ?

sc4001992

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2022, 04:01:45 PM »
lajos93,yes, the Bacon is a healthy tree and a seedling might be good to try. I did grow 100 sees from this hybrid bacon tree which is huge but since I'm in SoCal, can't tell you if the seedlings will be cold hardy. The parent tree is the largest avocado tree I have seen so far, much bigger in my opinion than the video of the London tree. This tree is about 30-40 ft tall, 40 ft wide, and the main trunk diameter is about 3 ft diameter. If you were in the US I would sell you some seeds to trial.
.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 08:11:10 PM by sc4001992 »

GFC

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2022, 04:23:18 PM »
Mexican Race Avocados, the more cold hardy type, have Anise scented leaves. Hybrid varieties can have some anise scent too.
You may be able to screen seedlings for Mexican ancestry ?
It may or may not be directly linked to cold tolerance, but it could be an interesting marker to watch out for ?

You could probably try Chipotle grill for avocado pits.

pineislander

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2022, 08:01:33 AM »
Ok

Im thinking about approaching vegan restaurants as the most realistic option

but how could I get some from supermarkets? (because that would be the best) I dont think they'll just hand me over the thrown out avocadoes, or what can do I to make that happen?  Get the attention of the manager somehow and talk to him, that sounds to much of a stretch.

Obviously they sell sometimes cheaper ones on discount every once in a while but its rare and it would still take years to accumulate the amount I want in that pace

@cassovary, how did you get a 100 for free?
Go to the wholesale vendors where large users buy their produce. Usually they will be buying a whole box of fruit but it will cost about half or less of the retail price.

johnb51

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2022, 09:41:06 AM »
You could probably try Chipotle grill for avocado pits.
They must have a lot of Chipotle Grills in Hungary!  Do they call them Chipotle Hungarian Grill?  Goulash burritos, anyone? ;D
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 08:26:55 PM by johnb51 »
John

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2022, 12:39:22 PM »
sc4001992
California is quite a bit hotter than 8a, so at best I dont think they'd be cold hardy unless some serious genetic mutation occurs

cassowary
I wonder If we're going by this method and lets say plant 10.000 lila or mexicola avocado seeds, would one or 2 eventually mutate to the point of becoming fully deciduous. That'd be super neat. I mean its a giant industry, shipping all these avocadoes I wonder how much money would they lose if everyone realized the potential in this

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2022, 05:48:24 PM »
Bacon is probably the most cold hardy variety in Australia. It is recommended for Melbourne, Victoria in the far south and coastal areas around there.
That doesn't mean it won't grow well in hotter areas, early on it was a commercial variety, now replaced with mainly Hass types.
Seeds of this, or known cold tolerant types in cold locations are probably your best starting place, as there is probably less of a jump to increased cold tolerance.

I am not sure there could be a leap to deciduous Avocado trees ?
In Avocados there may be increased frost protection from changes to  leaf thickness, ( tougher ) plant inactivity in cold weather, ( semi dormancy ),
oils in leaves ( antifreeze ) etc. Tree shape may affect the way the plant sheds cold air, canopy density may affect insulation properties.
The foliage probably gives some level of frost protection, at least for thin branches and twigs for minor frosts.
There have been -10'C frosts here which devastated Avocado trees in the past.

Some Citrus relatives are cold hardy deciduous ( Poncirus trifoliata ). Cold hardy Citrus X Poncirus hybrids are not deciduous like Poncirus. Some may be semi deciduous, but seem to be cold resistant due to other traits inherited from Poncirus.

Another option may be Dwarf Avocado types, partly cold resistant, and more easily protected by frost cloths / structures.
There are also other Persea species, some may be more cold tolerant, some may be suitable as rootstocks ?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 06:04:15 PM by pagnr »

1rainman

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2022, 06:19:44 PM »
You would need thousands, probably tens of thousands to get a mutation other than one that makes the plant weak. This is why I of f irradiates citrus to make them mutate. Then thousands are useless mutations.

It's mostly about hybridizing. Finding wild specimens and such with desirable traits. Even with tough parent hybrids it takes me 20 or 30 grape seeds to get one tough survivor. With most parents it's zero survivors. It's really a job best suited for universities that have vast resources.

 

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