Author Topic: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?  (Read 1900 times)

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2022, 08:54:19 PM »
You would need thousands, probably tens of thousands to get a mutation other than one that makes the plant weak.

Most known Avocado varieties in USA and Australia, particularly older types are chance seedlings of unknown origin.
ie Jalna, Zutano, Bacon, Rincon, Edranol (seedling of Lyon ), Sharwil, Hazzard, Hass, Millicent ( seedling of Mary Martin ), Reed.
That is an old Australian list, doesn't cover all the seedling types in Nth Qld, let alone USA or even Hawaii.
There has been deliberate Avocado breeding in Australia in the last 20+ years, but not much result ???

Yes Avocado seedlings can certainly be duds, low fruiting, long time to maturity, poor seed to flesh ratio, fruit prone to rot.
Yet even on this forum alone there are notable Avocado seedlings intro'd by members.
I would go as far as to agree that breeding Avocados is a big task and possibly a long haul project.

Galatians522

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2022, 09:44:25 PM »
Wild populations of a give species have the greatest genetic diversity and provide a good idea of the genetic limitations of a species. Nature has already planted millions of avocados at the northern end of their range in Mexico. If the genetics were there for a deciduous tree that could grow in Nebraska (for example) we would most likely find such a tree (even if very rare) in the wild.

Galatians522

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2022, 09:54:38 PM »
To put it another way, mass selection allows you to select for the genetics that you want. It is not a means of creating new genetics. You have to work within the genetics of the species that you are dealing with.

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2022, 03:32:20 AM »
There are Avocado relatives in the broader Lauracea family in colder areas, most of these are still evergreens. Sassafras is said to be one that is deciduous.
In the Avocado genus Persea,  "none of the species are very tolerant of severe winter cold, with the hardiest, P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingue,
surviving temperatures down to about −12 C (10.4 F) "
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 04:09:28 PM by pagnr »

Galatians522

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2022, 04:56:58 PM »
There are Avocado relatives in the broader Lauracea family in colder areas, most of these are still evergreens. Sassafras is said to be one that is deciduous.
In the Avocado genus Persea,  "none of the species are very tolerant of severe winter cold, with the hardiest, P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingue,
surviving temperatures down to about −12 C (10.4 F) "

P. borbonia is not graft or cross compatible with avocad based on the research I have studied. Are the others?

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2022, 05:24:16 PM »
P. borbonia is not graft or cross compatible with avocad based on the research I have studied. Are the others?

The hardiest, P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingue, none are in the same sub group as Avocado.
Based on what you say, probably not.
Only Persea schiedeana, the Coyo is in the same group, along with Avocado sub species.
.
As the hardiest Persea, survive temperatures down to about −12 C (10.4 F), I thought that was probably the limit you could ever hope for with Avocado.
That is probably outside the scope of conventional plant breeding, but maybe not the more recent methods of gene transfer (from the hardy species),
or artificial chimeras of two species ?

In Australia there is a move toward much smaller Avocado trees, for picking and management purposes.

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2022, 02:10:56 PM »
Wow so many great answers,

I havent heard of these species P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingue

What if you graft 100s of them to these rootstock by grafting experts, do you think its possible that one would take and actually grow well?

Do you think reaching that limit is possible to have within what is available to us now, or thats more like a long term breeding project that would eventually result in a zone 7b-8a avocado?

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2022, 02:41:48 PM »
I guess for the size you can always just prune whatever avocado tree you have to keep it compact that would add a few more degrees of hardiness?!

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2022, 04:29:37 PM »
Smaller Avocado trees when planted on farms usually need some form of frost and sunburn protection.
As they get bigger then become self protective and self insulating to a higher degree except until extreme frosts hit, say -10'c
Smaller Avocado tree varieties could be permanently protected in structures and still give fruit yields.

Different Avocado varieties might be more or less compatible with other Persea species.
It might also be possible that different grafting methods may be better.
Sometimes approach grafting and leaving the lower part of the scion rooted can overcome wide incompatibility.
Another method is to leave some branched on the lower rootstock to keep the rootstock tree functioning.
It might be possible to reduce the incompatibility barriers by creating hybrid rootstocks, either by crossing or chimeras ??
All interesting speculation though.



pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2022, 06:28:10 PM »
Thanks for the interesting article. Yes they got some Hybrid results, and some fails.
I see they suggest "bridging" hybridisations between distant species as a possible solution to get the desired hybrids.
Overall it is an interesting topic.
A more realistic possibility might be ultra dwarf trees that can be housed in protective structures, I imagine similar to other crops  ie eggplants.

Galatians522

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2022, 09:43:37 PM »
Thanks for the interesting article. Yes they got some Hybrid results, and some fails.
I see they suggest "bridging" hybridisations between distant species as a possible solution to get the desired hybrids.
Overall it is an interesting topic.
A more realistic possibility might be ultra dwarf trees that can be housed in protective structures, I imagine similar to other crops  ie eggplants.

Indeed! The trouble is that the bridge species has not been found yet and my not exist.

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2022, 02:13:58 AM »
Only Persea schiedeana, the Coyo is in the same group, along with Avocado sub species.
.
As the hardiest Persea, survive temperatures down to about −12 C (10.4 F)

I cant find anything regarding the cold hardiness of this p. schiedeana plant but sounds interersting, can you link sources? Also is this available anywhere to buy?

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2022, 03:57:25 AM »
I cant find anything regarding the cold hardiness of this p. schiedeana plant but sounds interersting, can you link sources? Also is this available anywhere to buy?

Can a USA member please answer this query. The P. schiedeana is here in Australia, but not very common at all. It is more likely to be found in USA.

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2022, 08:49:42 AM »
I cant find anything regarding the cold hardiness of this p. schiedeana plant but sounds interersting, can you link sources? Also is this available anywhere to buy?

Can a USA member please answer this query. The P. schiedeana is here in Australia, but not very common at all. It is more likely to be found in USA.

Didnt you just say that p. schiedeana can survive -12C and be fine, you wrote that in one of the above comments, or did I misunderstand it?

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2022, 02:10:52 PM »
Didnt you just say that p. schiedeana can survive -12C and be fine, you wrote that in one of the above comments, or did I misunderstand it?

Not exactly.

In the Avocado genus Persea,  "none of the species are very tolerant of severe winter cold, with the hardiest, P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingue,
surviving temperatures down to about −12 C (10.4 F) "

The hardiest, P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingue, none are in the same sub group as Avocado. 
Only Persea schiedeana, the Coyo is in the same group, along with Avocado sub species.

So  the hardiest, Persea, ( P. borbonia, P. ichangensis and P. lingo,) can survive temperatures down to about −12 C (10.4 F)
However they are not so closely related to Avocado, only the P. schiedeana is a direct relative compatible for X breeding and grafting easily.

P. schiedeana is said to be on the cold tolerant end of the Avocados. It also has highland forms, from cooler upland forests, which may be at the better end on that.
If it could survive such low temperatures as -12 ' C it would be widely grown already.

Sorry for the confusion. I was hoping that a USA member could answer your question about where seed can be found.


CTMIAMI

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2022, 08:38:38 AM »
There are a few people in North Florida experimenting with this. Some large operations that have  quality fruit with some cold resisting qualities. Not seen it or tasted it. I know for a fact that a cloned Duke 7 can take it down to to the mid 20's for a while. But not a good eating fruit.
I think the best way to do this would be to get openly pollinated seeds from 100% Mexicans trees and plant them to see, probably 5000 Plus needed . There are a lot of genetics available to accelerate the process e.i.  cold hardiness markers that can be searched for in batches. The cost of these have gone down a lot.
You would need at least 10 + acres and a lab to do the genetics to only plant what has possibilities can take 10 years plus to come up with something decent.   You would need funding for sources like Florida Dept of Agriculture, University or institutions to provide continuity and maybe, yes possible, never done, Crowd funding comes to mind.
Carlos
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www.myavocadotrees.com
zone 10a Miami-Dade County

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2022, 09:56:09 AM »
Getting 5000 seeds mexican seeds is not really viable to consider. Getting 3 already consts 10-20USD from Ebay, so 5000 would cost a fortune
The only possiblity I see is to plant a few thousand from supermarket seeds then hope that the desired traits will get expressed so we can finally see a -10C, -12C tolerating and fruiting plant

Hass allegedly has mexican origins so there is a chance, I mean Ive read stories of people seeing an avocado surviving -15C even if it dies back early on, that might mean that at some point it will tolerate that if it gets mature ( at least in theory it should be somewhat possible)

Here: https://garden.org/thread/view/145858/How-To-Grow-A-Cold-Hardy-Avocado-Tree--OUTDOORS--In-Vancouver-Canada/

CTMIAMI

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2022, 12:13:06 PM »
I did not expect you to do this in Hungary. This is something that would have to be done ideally in Florida.
I think to do it with commercial fruit is a waste of time because most if not all commercial Hass groves are monoculture, just Hass, maybe some will have a pollinator the diversity of pollen is very limited.  True from other commercial varieties.  Only some fruit from USDA germplasm collection, Fairchild Tropical Gardens, UC and maybe Israel Volcani Center, have enough diversity get the Eskimo needed.
Hass is 60% Mexican and 40% Guatemalan, probably some Hass seeds of openly pollinated fruit with some other varieties may be worth a shot. 
Carlos
 Tweeter: @carlosdlt280
www.myavocadotrees.com
zone 10a Miami-Dade County

drymifolia

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2022, 02:37:21 PM »
I'm a little late to this topic, but I am organizing a cold-hardy avocado breeding project for the US Pacific NW/Canadian SW (I'm in Seattle). Mostly on the U.S. side due to border issues, though a few Canadian members of our project have done the legwork to get trees inspected by USDA for bringing into Canada, they'll be trying that in the spring and not sure how easy it'll be.

I do not think Hass seedlings are the way to go, but if it's all you can get then I guess it's better than nothing. Even my Mexican-race seedlings show a wide range of frost tenderness at year 2, all the Guatemalan or hybrid seedlings I've tried (including Bacon) have been badly damaged by even mild frosts. They probably are hardier as they get larger, but some Mexican seedlings show very little frost damage even in their first year. Here's a thread I posted on mastodon with photos last week (should be visible even if you don't have an account):

https://sunbeam.city/@drymifolia/109486354706736631

I have about 20 grafted Mexican type cultivars, mostly in my greenhouse, and I'll be planning to distribute seedlings of those locally to members of our project for the next decade or so, until we either find some seedlings adapted to our climate here (a cold/cool zone 8b), or give up. My largest grafts are a little over 2 years old and about 7 ft tall, hopefully we'll get decent fruit set this spring. So far the seeds have been mostly sourced from CA and north Florida growers.

And no, I'm not interested in shipping trees or seeds outside this local area, but if I'm ever pruning and have extra cuttings I'd be happy to mail those to anyone trying something similar in other marginal climates. Here's a regularly updated list of the grafted varieties I've got (includes one WI type, "Choquette", that's just used as a framework on a multi-graft greenhouse tree, so not part of the project or available to cut):

https://www.drymifolia.org/trees.php?subset=grafts

« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 02:47:07 PM by drymifolia »

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2022, 02:52:35 PM »
I see it also that way, it might be just a waste of time but I like avocadoes anyway, so planting them might just be a better use of the seeds then throwing them away.
And yes I also have 6 mexican seedlings from ebay, they are doing quite well in my greenhouse

drymifolia: but why dont you just plant del rio, poncho, lila avocado trees, they are allegedly hardy to 8b, or if you need just a little push on the hardiness tolerance, mexican seedlings surely will do the trick

drymifolia

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2022, 02:56:48 PM »
drymifolia: but why dont you just plant del rio, poncho, lila avocado trees, they are allegedly hardy to 8b, or if you need just a little push on the hardiness tolerance, mexican seedlings surely will do the trick

I think you will discover that the hardiness claims of some of those cultivars are exaggerated, and not all zone 8b areas are the same. So far more than 70% of the Mexican seedlings we have planted out (mostly first or second year) were killed. This fall, many were killed by -4C (25F), and this week we have a forecast low of 17F (-8C), when I expect many more to die.

I have never heard of anyone successfully growing an avocado tree of any cultivar to fruiting size outside in Seattle, protected or otherwise, and I've heard from many people who have tried and failed with grafted Mexican avocado trees from commercial nurseries. So, I think even my project is a long shot, but I'm hoping we can succeed. I don't think success is anywhere near assured, the way you imply, and people trying in even more marginal climates should set their expectations of success very very low.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 03:13:55 PM by drymifolia »

lajos93

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2022, 03:09:12 PM »
but it might just mean the main stem got killed but it will bounce back stronger next year when it wont freeze back maybe?

drymifolia

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2022, 03:15:37 PM »
but it might just mean the main stem got killed but it will bounce back stronger next year when it wont freeze back maybe?

Some of our largest trees outside were killed to the ground for the second straight year. So far no sign of hardiness from epigenetic effects after cold damage. But yes, some trees seem more prone to regrowing from the roots than others when they are killed above ground.

pagnr

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Re: "Breeding" cold hardy avocadoes from supermarket seeds?
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2022, 04:03:27 PM »
I am in an Avocado growing area. We have -4'C here for a few nights, usually every year. Not this year as it has been unusually rainy and mild.
In this area grafted Avocado trees would be grown in a protected nursery for several years, then planted out, with frost and sun/wind burn protection such as shade cloth covers at a minimum.
Irrigation or frost fans might also be used to further prevent frost damage.
After several years of growth the covers would be removed as the plant can better handle the low temps.
Every ten years or so a minus 10 ' C frost might happen, causing severe damage to adult Avocado trees.

My point is that Avocados are more cold susceptible as young plants, and better handle cold as they develop insulating canopy cover and tougher foliage.
More than likely those cold hardy Avocados in unusual areas are 50/50 genetics and good luck, with maybe a few initial mild seasons to get them established.

 

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