Author Topic: Old Cultivars vs New  (Read 8713 times)

natsgarden123

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2012, 07:20:22 PM »
Many of the prior posts have good advice.  I planted a mixture of both new and old.  I am a bit of a risk taker with the new cultivars because little is publicly known about them, but I believe the new cultivars would not be released unless they have good potential. 

There is no substitute for research.  Both in taste, tree productivity, ease of care (disease resistance), and size of tree.  Some mangos may taste great, but have low productivity (Edwards).  Some mangos may taste great, but be very susceptible to fungus, so you get lots of frustration watching fruit decay and get few fruit to eat. 

Good luck!

I pretty much do what you do-  I like the older varieties- I think Valencia Pride, Mallika, Carrie, Fairchild and Baileys Marvel are the bomb- I have them all.  I really like Hayden, it delicious, but I won't plant one -too big and I already have some big varieties. .  I had a yummy Nam Doc Mai at my old house-I had the bigger tree variety ( now its a dwarf with ?fruit splitting problems). I have tasted and enjoyed all the above mangos.

I planted the Lemon Zest because there were so many amazing reviews. I planted the Harvest Moon, well, because I liked  the name. I planted a Pickering because I wanted a really  dwarf tree that would produce lots of mangoes -it looks amazing.

My husband has told me that I'm not allowed to plant any more mangoes...we'll see about that :) because I want a maha chanok- I'm hoping Excalibur has some to taste this summer so that I can taste it before planting.  The only other tree I may want is a Neelam, for late mangoes. 

With that all said,  I'm going to be in big trouble when I get back from the Mango Festival-I doubt that I will be able to leave empty handed..

With all this mango talk-I'm Hungry!
That is not a completely accurate statement.  None of the NDM are dwarf.  The book is still out as to what the dwarfing rootstock does to it (the NDM on dwarfing rootstock are extremely limited, if available at all at this point, so it may be a mute point to comment on it).

Also, depending on your definition of "old", the Mallika was introduced in Florida in 1978 and Neelam in 1979.

Rob
1.) Old doesn't mean antique- I should have said- "Established" 
2.) The NDM trees sold today are not the ones that were sold 10 years ago, if I am correct. I read a number of threads on Nam Doc Mai being dwarf, compared to the way it was.  I actually asked is I could buy the original tree variety-it doesn't exist anymore.

Semantics... >:(







bsbullie

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2012, 11:29:37 PM »
Many of the prior posts have good advice.  I planted a mixture of both new and old.  I am a bit of a risk taker with the new cultivars because little is publicly known about them, but I believe the new cultivars would not be released unless they have good potential. 

There is no substitute for research.  Both in taste, tree productivity, ease of care (disease resistance), and size of tree.  Some mangos may taste great, but have low productivity (Edwards).  Some mangos may taste great, but be very susceptible to fungus, so you get lots of frustration watching fruit decay and get few fruit to eat. 

Good luck!

I pretty much do what you do-  I like the older varieties- I think Valencia Pride, Mallika, Carrie, Fairchild and Baileys Marvel are the bomb- I have them all.  I really like Hayden, it delicious, but I won't plant one -too big and I already have some big varieties. .  I had a yummy Nam Doc Mai at my old house-I had the bigger tree variety ( now its a dwarf with ?fruit splitting problems). I have tasted and enjoyed all the above mangos.

I planted the Lemon Zest because there were so many amazing reviews. I planted the Harvest Moon, well, because I liked  the name. I planted a Pickering because I wanted a really  dwarf tree that would produce lots of mangoes -it looks amazing.

My husband has told me that I'm not allowed to plant any more mangoes...we'll see about that :) because I want a maha chanok- I'm hoping Excalibur has some to taste this summer so that I can taste it before planting.  The only other tree I may want is a Neelam, for late mangoes. 

With that all said,  I'm going to be in big trouble when I get back from the Mango Festival-I doubt that I will be able to leave empty handed..

With all this mango talk-I'm Hungry!
That is not a completely accurate statement.  None of the NDM are dwarf.  The book is still out as to what the dwarfing rootstock does to it (the NDM on dwarfing rootstock are extremely limited, if available at all at this point, so it may be a mute point to comment on it).

Also, depending on your definition of "old", the Mallika was introduced in Florida in 1978 and Neelam in 1979.

Rob
1.) Old doesn't mean antique- I should have said- "Established" 
2.) The NDM trees sold today are not the ones that were sold 10 years ago, if I am correct. I read a number of threads on Nam Doc Mai being dwarf, compared to the way it was.  I actually asked is I could buy the original tree variety-it doesn't exist anymore.

Semantics... >:(
Its not semantics, its facts.

Based on what you named this thread, you should know the facts before making statements.  I would not consider Neelam nor Mallika an "old" variety (from Fairchild on Mallika, "‘Mallika’ is a hybrid between 'Neelam' and 'Dasheri', and is considered among the best of the new generation of Indian dessert mangos.").  No, they are not one of Zills "new" varieties but they are not even close to the true old varieties that were introduces in the first quarter of the 1900s.  Based on the ages of varieties in Florida, I would place both Neelam and Mallika in the "newer" class.

As for NDM, your statement about the ones sold today are not what was sold ten years ago is completely wrong.  In addition, there are many cultivars of NDM.  I will also follow up by saying there are no proven dwarfs of NDM.  I believe in general they are a slower grower but will ultimately  grow past what would be considered a dwarf by definition.  Take the Mahachanok, for comparison purposes, it is a slow grower but by no means is it considered a dwarf.  So compared to a Val Pride, it may appear dwarfed but given time it is not a dwarf.

Carrie and Dot are other trees that fall into that dwarf misnomer category.  Keeping them pruned and managed at 10-12 feet is not the same thing as calling them a dwarf.  Many mangoes can be maintained at 10-15 feet with constant pruning, ala Richard Campbell, but that is a far cry from being a dwarf tree.
- Rob

natsgarden123

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 05:07:55 AM »
I was given wrong information about NDM apparently? I don't understand what you are saying about there being different NDMs and that the tree I bought 10yo being the same which is sold now. No matter. The tree I bought 10yo is big now. I guess my understanding is wrong.
When i was referring to new i was talking about the new Zill varieties from the last few years. 
1978 is 30yo.
 I'm not remotely close to being an expert. I'm a backyard hobiest. I put the question out for discussion.
Rob, is there any reason there any reason that you are so argumentative?

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2012, 05:45:34 AM »
Nat, I wouldn't declare your info incorrect. Some people describe NDM #4 as having a "semi-dwarf" growth habit. Regardless of the semantics, it is definitely measurably less vigorous than the 'original' NDM, which you could have for all we know.

bsbullie

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 07:36:48 AM »
Its not being argumentative its correcting possibly misleading or incorrect information.  As you say you are a hobbyist, I would think you would have some caring in clarification and what is correct for your future knowledge.  People make mistakes, all of us, no big deal but sometimes its how we handle our mistakes.

Whether you were given wrong info I don't know but the "older" NDM as you said, did not just disappear.  Some nurseries may not be propagating it anymore but I guarantee that some definitely are.  There are some growers who feel the inherent problems with the #4 do not make it worthy of propagating.  Yes, #4 is a less vigorous grower but revisit the tree in 15-20 years and let me know the size.  As I stated, less vigorous does not mean its a dwarf.  And yes, there are a handful of sub-cultivars of NDM here in Florida, NDM Sai Tong being one.

As to Zills' "new" varieties, they are new to the "market" but the parent trees are not three years old either.  The parent trees are well established trees grown from seed, some of which have been producing fruit for at least since 2009.  The parent trees could very well be more than 10 years old.  As you may know, the Zills have been experimenting with mangoes for a long time.
- Rob

mangomandan

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2012, 07:59:51 AM »
Nat, it sounds like your neighbor is off to a good start, as far as the Honeybell/Minneola.  Pretty much anyone who likes citrus should love that. And it sounds like he or she is willing to take some time to explore options.

That said, if your neighbor, or any of our neighbors, simply asked: "what's a nice mango to plant in my yard?"  I think it is legitimate to offer a few suggestions.  Not everyone is going to want to do a lot of research, and that's okay.  Perhaps their passions lie elsewhere.

If he lives fairly close to the ocean, he would probably be thrilled with a Kent or a Dot. Otherwise he probably couldn't go wrong with a Cogshall or Keitt, Graham or Pickering, depending on how large/vigorous of a tree he wanted.

These are just examples, of course. I know we would all have our own suggestions, and any of those would be superior to the Tommy Atkins he would find on his own at Home Depot.

natsgarden123

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2012, 08:35:45 AM »
Thanks for all the comments  :)
I haven't given him much advice other than to read the basic hooks I have him (I also lent him the Charles Boning book) and to visit Excalibur to see the huge variety. They also have fairly large potted trees which I think would be helpful.

zands

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Re: Old Cultivars vs New
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2012, 09:02:39 AM »

2.) The NDM trees sold today are not the ones that were sold 10 years ago, if I am correct. I read a number of threads on Nam Doc Mai being dwarf, compared to the way it was.  I actually asked is I could buy the original tree variety-it doesn't exist anymore.

Semantics... >:(

Jeff Hagen might graft one for you...old style NDM. Old style NDMs can take some years to fruit but the fruits don't split so much....so the story goes. The trees grow faster and larger
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 03:28:49 PM by zands »

 

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