Diversity or Diversity

[stuartdaly88]

We're omnivores, but usually limit our meat/fish consumption to about 4-6 ounces per day.

We have a teenage granddaughter who has gone vegetarian. The whole family is tolerant and respectful of her choice. But it's worrisome because she's becoming ever more focused on carbs/ sugars and her health is suffering. Quite a dilemma for her parents.

Our gardening/ landscaping goals are shade, privacy, appearance, low maintenance, fresh air, exercise, reducing expenses for food, increasing self-reliance and emergency preparedness. We love fruit, BUT there's no way our health could tolerate all the sugar coming from our fruit trees.

Ideally, our selection of what to grow ought to aim for healthy nutrition (both fruits and vegetables), harvest spread out over 12 months, long season staples we eat a lot of, some short season 'treats', and cultivars selected for best taste, disease/insect resistance, ease of growing, extended picking season, and ease of harvesting.

We hope to grow more than we can eat ourselves and share the excess with friends, family, neighbors, and elderly folks who no longer have gardens or access to home grown fruits.

If local codes permitted we would opt to raise some rabbits, ducks, and/or chickens for protein. But that's a no go for the present.

They dont even let you have one little hen for eggs!??? 3 hens make more eggs than I could ever use and the straw in their pen makes awesome compost! They are quiet and dont smell if the pen is large and you change the straw.
 
I would consider raising rabits just for their brown gold! I wouldnt ever eat my bunnies but their crap is top notch stuff doesnt even really need composting and my roses flower like mad! My cousins have a few guini pigs as pets inside they are very affectionate and jump up and down in excitement when they see you their dung is every bit as good.

There are plenty of choices for your grandaughter to fit in more fat and protein! Moringa is a good choice and cooked is Superior to spinach in taste IMO. Hemp has alot of oil and the protein content is extremely high for a plant(and complete with all essential amino acids). Dont worry it has absolutely no illegal or psychoactive component. The unmilled seeds I just chow on with abit of salt like nuts but the husk some people dont like.
Good old fashioned peanut butter will also get the protein and fat up!
I mentioned abov myco protein tastes really good but may be pricey
Quinoa,chia legumes will all balance the diet out. Avos are not bad for protein as fruits go and nice fat content.

There are some really good vegan protein shakes out there but concentrated pea protein gave me gippo guts every single time.
To me hemp protein is king of the powders and doesnt even need to be concentrated at all. Hulled hemp is 33% protein!!!

Iv tried spirolina powder for extra protein and phytonutrients but it turned my hands orange!!(Im pretty protein obsessed actually to tell the truth)

My guess is you are over dosing on protein. A lot of people do. Eating too much protein can cause a LOT of health problems. Google it.

My father had protein poisoning when he was younger as a result of only eating egg whites(very poor as a student and eggs were cheap protein shake) so I am familiar with over consumption
When my protein consumption is high Im weight lifting 3/4 times per week.
I know a few people who have overdone the protein and its not even close to as bad as under consuming!Over doing protein can lead to dehydration, calcium imbalance and of course not getting enough other macronutriens(protein poisoning otherwise known as rabbit starvation) and possibly unhealthy weight gain Under consumption of protein can be horrible and so many deficiency diseases are associated with it they are too numerable to mention.
Many many rich active people under consume protein here it is the building block of all muscle tissue in the body and cannot be understated whether your source is meat based or plant.
Maybe its just living in Africa but for the poor here finding sustainable protein sources is the most important aspect of any food security research especially for growing children and people with wasting diseases such as AIDS protein is life giving.
Moringa has be a Godsend to children and AIDs patients in some rural communities.

In many industrialized countries over consumption of protein seems to be the norm, and it causes a whole range of health problems. In poor countries it is possible to get enough protein without hemp, myco proteins, spirulina, or any new fancy concoction. Hindu culture has been doing it for thousands of years. The Hindus do consume small amounts of dairy as in ghee and curd, but it's a very small part of their diet. Most protein comes from legumes. I'm guessing probably common Hindu Indian farmer is burning more calories and has more muscles than you do.

I would genuinely be interested in links proving over consumption of protein "causes a whole range of health problems" beside those ones I stated as well as how commonly that actually happens even in western diets with very high protein. Theres nothing I love more than being proved wrong as that means Iv discovered something new!

Hemp is not new or fancy and was consumed for thousands of years, Seaweeds have also been consumed for many many years not new or fancy:)
Vegetarian Hindus(many Hindus actually consume meat btw) also consume yogurt and dairy in decent amounts yes with legumes this could definitely be enough protein for some people as long as though got all the essential amino acids in their diet.
I have a strong interest in Ayervedic approach to health which is very concerned with the diet. Diet is entirely dependent on the person and people are segmented into types that have completely different dietary requirements. Pitta body types are recommended alot of protein Kapha would be lower protein diets.(this is ofcourse drastically over simplified)
Maybe Im completely wrong/misinformed but Hindu farmers are very lean in my mind. Whenever I have seen pictures of indians farming they have been healthy looking but extremely lean or slow twitch muscle fibers, thats not what my weight lifting is usually going for Im more about fast twitch explosive strength which requires high amounts of protein in the diet.

[franciscu]

Thanks to both StuartDaly88 and Fruitlovers for the wealth of ideas on the merits of the various nutritional lifestyles. In past ages people were just fortunate to glean enough to fill their stomachs from whatever they could raise or find within walking distance. Now we have so much choice - brought about by transportation, energy, technologies for propagating, growing, harvesting, processing, preserving, packaging foods from all over the planet.

We're surrounded by so many folks advocating this or that systematic approach to nutrition. There's the high protein 'paleolithic' school, the low protein 'plant based' school of Campbell and Essylstyn, high fat/ low carb school of Perlmutter's Grain Brain, the evolving 'zone' school of Barry Sears, and many many others. How very ironic then to read a book like the Blue Zones (Dan Buettner) and his conclusion that the healthiest people seem to be lifelong eaters of simple, local foods - people who work hard and live simple, uncomplicated lives.

I really believe that nutrition is not a 'one size fits all' kind of deal. As these simple people living in Blue Zones across the globe show there can be many solutions. In each 'blue zone' the traditional 'system' of life and nutrition had come down from the trial and error of their cultural past. The challenge today is that most of the cultural wisdom of the past has gotten totally confused by the vast increase in available food types and quantities, by the technologies which adulterate food with additives, dyes, preservatives, ag chemicals, and food 'processing'. Awareness is increasing of how aspects of industrial food are leading to enormous public health crises. And this in turn has stimulated the growing interest in nutritional 'systems'.

The difficulty for young people like my granddaughter is that their knowledge base is thin and their maturity lacking. The young often get swept up in enthusiasm for 'systems' being touted by partisans convinced that they have the whole answer in a 'one size fits all' package. No one needs to convince me that a vegetarian system COULD work for her. The problem is how to lead a teenager to acquire the necessary knowledge and discipline she would need to make her vegetarian diet healthy in fact and not just in theory.

If I seem to be picking on vegetarianism here it's only because that is the case with my granddaughter. Heaven knows that uebermillions of our youth are extremely badly nourished from eating omnivore diets too.

[Cookie Monster]

Fruits are high in fiber, which hinders glucose absorption. My wife's doctor was giving her flak for consuming so much fruit in the form of smoothies, postulating that the sugar content was too high and leading to a high glycemic load. So, with her help (she gave me a blood glucose meter), I conducted an experiment whereby I downed over 32 ounces of a thick smoothie containing the sweetest fruits I could find (eg, canistel, mango, etc.) -- on an empty stomach. I took blood glucose measurements before and at 30 minute intervals for the duration of 2 hours. Blood glucose levels didn't budge. This confirmed what I always believed, that the fiber in fruits renders the sugar harmless. There are also studies demonstrating that high fruit consumption doesn't contribute to carie development.

Not all fruits are just sugar. Two very good examples are avocado and coconuts.
I don't think you should be tolerant of vegetarian choice. I think you should be supportive of it. Most studies show that long term vegetarians live longer and are healthier than meat eaters. You just need to get some good information for her to re-adjust her diet correctly. Just eating carbs and sugars, you are right, is not very healthy.

[Viking Guy]

There are some fruits I eat which have actually lowered my blood sugar.  Being diabetic and a lover of fruit is tough,

[nullzero]

I think genetics play a large part in what diets work out for a person. Someone with genetics from a tropical country, is more likely to do well in a vegetarian diet with high carbs. Where as someone who has genetics from Northern Europe is more likely to be healthy with a higher protein and fat diet with lower carbs derived from animal protein and milk.

A big problem is the additives, preservatives, chemical residues (from pesticides), gmos, hormones (from the meat industry), and processed oils/sugars. People  are getting auto immune diseases, cancer, diabetes, and other diseases much more frequently (add in other factors such as environmental exposure of chemicals and pollution its just icing on the cake).

Anyway, back to the original discussion...

I like diversity of plants, I love a little specialization as well (usually about 2-5 selections of a species of plant is enough to satisfy my specialization). I have some specialization of plants such as Opuntia ficus-indica, Dragon Fruit, and Mango. Other then that most other plants I have maybe 2 selections on average or a bunch of seedlings from one source that I am growing.

I am starting to grow out multiple seedlings from different sources of the same species such as Solanum quitoense (plan to make some selections in the future). I don't just stop at fruits, I concentrate on vegetable and herbs as well (been eyeing on collecting more perennial veggies and herbs). I like having a wide spectrum of plants that I can use in my diet or for herbal teas.

[stuartdaly88]

I think genetics play a large part in what diets work out for a person. Someone with genetics from a tropical country, is more likely to do well in a vegetarian diet with high carbs. Where as someone who has genetics from Northern Europe is more likely to be healthy with a higher protein and fat diet with lower carbs derived from animal protein and milk.

A big problem is the additives, preservatives, chemical residues (from pesticides), gmos, hormones (from the meat industry), and processed oils/sugars. People  are getting auto immune diseases, cancer, diabetes, and other diseases much more frequently (add in other factors such as environmental exposure of chemicals and pollution its just icing on the cake).

Anyway, back to the original discussion...

I like diversity of plants, I love a little specialization as well (usually about 2-5 selections of a species of plant is enough to satisfy my specialization). I have some specialization of plants such as Opuntia ficus-indica, Dragon Fruit, and Mango. Other then that most other plants I have maybe 2 selections on average or a bunch of seedlings from one source that I am growing.

I am starting to grow out multiple seedlings from different sources of the same species such as Solanum quitoense (plan to make some selections in the future). I don't just stop at fruits, I concentrate on vegetable and herbs as well (been eyeing on collecting more perennial veggies and herbs). I like having a wide spectrum of plants that I can use in my diet or for herbal teas.

Perennial veg is so so under rated and getting info on all the different perennial veg of the world is very very difficult(for me anyway).
I have a book on perennial vegetables and it says Opuntia is not bad cooked or grilled. Have you tasted it like this?
It also.list many water plants I only have lotus now hope to expand my pond foods collection! but don't know if there's any dangers of cultivation in a pond ie pathogen wise or is it the same as soil I'm not sure.

[stuartdaly88]

I mean the actual pads of the cactus grilled not the fruit!


To marry the topic of nutrition and this thread though. I read an article done on centenarians around the world and the conclusion was that they "eat the rainbow" as in their diets are incredibly diverse and they eat all the different things available and in season so perhaps diversity is better than variety at least for health:D

[nullzero]

I think genetics play a large part in what diets work out for a person. Someone with genetics from a tropical country, is more likely to do well in a vegetarian diet with high carbs. Where as someone who has genetics from Northern Europe is more likely to be healthy with a higher protein and fat diet with lower carbs derived from animal protein and milk.

A big problem is the additives, preservatives, chemical residues (from pesticides), gmos, hormones (from the meat industry), and processed oils/sugars. People  are getting auto immune diseases, cancer, diabetes, and other diseases much more frequently (add in other factors such as environmental exposure of chemicals and pollution its just icing on the cake).

Anyway, back to the original discussion...

I like diversity of plants, I love a little specialization as well (usually about 2-5 selections of a species of plant is enough to satisfy my specialization). I have some specialization of plants such as Opuntia ficus-indica, Dragon Fruit, and Mango. Other then that most other plants I have maybe 2 selections on average or a bunch of seedlings from one source that I am growing.

I am starting to grow out multiple seedlings from different sources of the same species such as Solanum quitoense (plan to make some selections in the future). I don't just stop at fruits, I concentrate on vegetable and herbs as well (been eyeing on collecting more perennial veggies and herbs). I like having a wide spectrum of plants that I can use in my diet or for herbal teas.

Perennial veg is so so under rated and getting info on all the different perennial veg of the world is very very difficult(for me anyway).
I have a book on perennial vegetables and it says Opuntia is not bad cooked or grilled. Have you tasted it like this?
It also.list many water plants I only have lotus now hope to expand my pond foods collection! but don't know if there's any dangers of cultivation in a pond ie pathogen wise or is it the same as soil I'm not sure.

Pathogen issues are higher from what I read with water crops. You can find references to this with Kang Kong and other popular water vegetable articles and information. Its advised with any water vegetable to wash it well and cook it before use. However, knowing that you can control cultivation process and water quality (eating some of your own cultivated water vegetables raw could be done with caution!).

As for Opuntia sp. I love the pads grilled, they are also great fried, baked, pickled and of course raw. My favorite tasting one is Opuntia subarmata selection I have, which has a great taste (lime + asparagus) and good softer texture with less fiber (texture is close to okra on all the Opuntia sp. I have tried). I also have other Opuntia ficus-indicas which I like the taste of the pads (the others range from green bean taste with some lemon zest).

[stuartdaly88]

I think genetics play a large part in what diets work out for a person. Someone with genetics from a tropical country, is more likely to do well in a vegetarian diet with high carbs. Where as someone who has genetics from Northern Europe is more likely to be healthy with a higher protein and fat diet with lower carbs derived from animal protein and milk.

A big problem is the additives, preservatives, chemical residues (from pesticides), gmos, hormones (from the meat industry), and processed oils/sugars. People  are getting auto immune diseases, cancer, diabetes, and other diseases much more frequently (add in other factors such as environmental exposure of chemicals and pollution its just icing on the cake).

Anyway, back to the original discussion...

I like diversity of plants, I love a little specialization as well (usually about 2-5 selections of a species of plant is enough to satisfy my specialization). I have some specialization of plants such as Opuntia ficus-indica, Dragon Fruit, and Mango. Other then that most other plants I have maybe 2 selections on average or a bunch of seedlings from one source that I am growing.

I am starting to grow out multiple seedlings from different sources of the same species such as Solanum quitoense (plan to make some selections in the future). I don't just stop at fruits, I concentrate on vegetable and herbs as well (been eyeing on collecting more perennial veggies and herbs). I like having a wide spectrum of plants that I can use in my diet or for herbal teas.

Perennial veg is so so under rated and getting info on all the different perennial veg of the world is very very difficult(for me anyway).
I have a book on perennial vegetables and it says Opuntia is not bad cooked or grilled. Have you tasted it like this?
It also.list many water plants I only have lotus now hope to expand my pond foods collection! but don't know if there's any dangers of cultivation in a pond ie pathogen wise or is it the same as soil I'm not sure.

Pathogen issues are higher from what I read with water crops. You can find references to this with Kang Kong and other popular water vegetable articles and information. Its advised with any water vegetable to wash it well and cook it before use. However, knowing that you can control cultivation process and water quality (eating some of your own cultivated water vegetables raw could be done with caution!).

As for Opuntia sp. I love the pads grilled, they are also great fried, baked, pickled and of course raw. My favorite tasting one is Opuntia subarmata selection I have, which has a great taste (lime + asparagus) and good softer texture with less fiber (texture is close to okra on all the Opuntia sp. I have tried). I also have other Opuntia ficus-indicas which I like the taste of the pads (the others range from green bean taste with some lemon zest).

Hmm maybe I should buy some big drum dustbins to have controlled environment if I ever do get more water crops. They really do interest me but imagine those little bullharzia buggers got in my pond or sunken bathtub!! Im sure cooking well  must be reasonably safe though!

Oh wow those pads sound right up my alley! Unfortunately they are all just named Prickly Pear and is basically a weed here used for feeding sheep lol so I will have test and hopefully find the best in my neck of the woods!
I'm assuming the younger the pads the better?

[fruitlovers]

We're omnivores, but usually limit our meat/fish consumption to about 4-6 ounces per day.

We have a teenage granddaughter who has gone vegetarian. The whole family is tolerant and respectful of her choice. But it's worrisome because she's becoming ever more focused on carbs/ sugars and her health is suffering. Quite a dilemma for her parents.

Our gardening/ landscaping goals are shade, privacy, appearance, low maintenance, fresh air, exercise, reducing expenses for food, increasing self-reliance and emergency preparedness. We love fruit, BUT there's no way our health could tolerate all the sugar coming from our fruit trees.

Ideally, our selection of what to grow ought to aim for healthy nutrition (both fruits and vegetables), harvest spread out over 12 months, long season staples we eat a lot of, some short season 'treats', and cultivars selected for best taste, disease/insect resistance, ease of growing, extended picking season, and ease of harvesting.

We hope to grow more than we can eat ourselves and share the excess with friends, family, neighbors, and elderly folks who no longer have gardens or access to home grown fruits.

If local codes permitted we would opt to raise some rabbits, ducks, and/or chickens for protein. But that's a no go for the present.

They dont even let you have one little hen for eggs!??? 3 hens make more eggs than I could ever use and the straw in their pen makes awesome compost! They are quiet and dont smell if the pen is large and you change the straw.
 
I would consider raising rabits just for their brown gold! I wouldnt ever eat my bunnies but their crap is top notch stuff doesnt even really need composting and my roses flower like mad! My cousins have a few guini pigs as pets inside they are very affectionate and jump up and down in excitement when they see you their dung is every bit as good.

There are plenty of choices for your grandaughter to fit in more fat and protein! Moringa is a good choice and cooked is Superior to spinach in taste IMO. Hemp has alot of oil and the protein content is extremely high for a plant(and complete with all essential amino acids). Dont worry it has absolutely no illegal or psychoactive component. The unmilled seeds I just chow on with abit of salt like nuts but the husk some people dont like.
Good old fashioned peanut butter will also get the protein and fat up!
I mentioned abov myco protein tastes really good but may be pricey
Quinoa,chia legumes will all balance the diet out. Avos are not bad for protein as fruits go and nice fat content.

There are some really good vegan protein shakes out there but concentrated pea protein gave me gippo guts every single time.
To me hemp protein is king of the powders and doesnt even need to be concentrated at all. Hulled hemp is 33% protein!!!

Iv tried spirolina powder for extra protein and phytonutrients but it turned my hands orange!!(Im pretty protein obsessed actually to tell the truth)

My guess is you are over dosing on protein. A lot of people do. Eating too much protein can cause a LOT of health problems. Google it.

My father had protein poisoning when he was younger as a result of only eating egg whites(very poor as a student and eggs were cheap protein shake) so I am familiar with over consumption
When my protein consumption is high Im weight lifting 3/4 times per week.
I know a few people who have overdone the protein and its not even close to as bad as under consuming!Over doing protein can lead to dehydration, calcium imbalance and of course not getting enough other macronutriens(protein poisoning otherwise known as rabbit starvation) and possibly unhealthy weight gain Under consumption of protein can be horrible and so many deficiency diseases are associated with it they are too numerable to mention.
Many many rich active people under consume protein here it is the building block of all muscle tissue in the body and cannot be understated whether your source is meat based or plant.
Maybe its just living in Africa but for the poor here finding sustainable protein sources is the most important aspect of any food security research especially for growing children and people with wasting diseases such as AIDS protein is life giving.
Moringa has be a Godsend to children and AIDs patients in some rural communities.

In many industrialized countries over consumption of protein seems to be the norm, and it causes a whole range of health problems. In poor countries it is possible to get enough protein without hemp, myco proteins, spirulina, or any new fancy concoction. Hindu culture has been doing it for thousands of years. The Hindus do consume small amounts of dairy as in ghee and curd, but it's a very small part of their diet. Most protein comes from legumes. I'm guessing probably common Hindu Indian farmer is burning more calories and has more muscles than you do.

I would genuinely be interested in links proving over consumption of protein "causes a whole range of health problems" beside those ones I stated as well as how commonly that actually happens even in western diets with very high protein. Theres nothing I love more than being proved wrong as that means Iv discovered something new!

Hemp is not new or fancy and was consumed for thousands of years, Seaweeds have also been consumed for many many years not new or fancy:)
Vegetarian Hindus(many Hindus actually consume meat btw) also consume yogurt and dairy in decent amounts yes with legumes this could definitely be enough protein for some people as long as though got all the essential amino acids in their diet.
I have a strong interest in Ayervedic approach to health which is very concerned with the diet. Diet is entirely dependent on the person and people are segmented into types that have completely different dietary requirements. Pitta body types are recommended alot of protein Kapha would be lower protein diets.(this is ofcourse drastically over simplified)
Maybe Im completely wrong/misinformed but Hindu farmers are very lean in my mind. Whenever I have seen pictures of indians farming they have been healthy looking but extremely lean or slow twitch muscle fibers, thats not what my weight lifting is usually going for Im more about fast twitch explosive strength which requires high amounts of protein in the diet.

Try reading the book The China Study, a very well documented and researched book showing how areas in China that transitioned from mostly vegetarian to meat eating suffered all kinds of new health problems. Yes Hindu farmers may not be able to press 500 pounds. Yet i'm sure they could work you and most westerners into the ground. BTW the meat eaters are not truly Hindus. Hinduism prohibits consumption of meat. It is like saying there are muslims and jews that eat pork.

[Cookie Monster]

Yes, that's the premise of Dr Liponis' "hunter  / farmer diet." Some do better on higher protein diets consisting of fewer, larger meals, while others do better on a higher carb diet with smaller, high frequency meals.

Not all carbs are created equally. Carbs found in nature often are loaded with fiber, which aside from buffering the effect of the carbs, has myriad health benefits. 20th century manufactured carbs are completely different from what our ancestors would have eaten.

Eschewing meat altogether is probably not as beneficial from a health standpoint as a diet consisting of a variety of high quality foods -- I'm thinking towards the mediterranean end of the diet spectrum. Admittedly, 20th century industrialized nations go overboard on low quality meat, but going completely the opposite direction is probably not the answer either.

I think genetics play a large part in what diets work out for a person. Someone with genetics from a tropical country, is more likely to do well in a vegetarian diet with high carbs. Where as someone who has genetics from Northern Europe is more likely to be healthy with a higher protein and fat diet with lower carbs derived from animal protein and milk.

[shaneatwell]

Fruits are high in fiber, which hinders glucose absorption. My wife's doctor was giving her flak for consuming so much fruit in the form of smoothies, postulating that the sugar content was too high and leading to a high glycemic load. So, with her help (she gave me a blood glucose meter), I conducted an experiment whereby I downed over 32 ounces of a thick smoothie containing the sweetest fruits I could find (eg, canistel, mango, etc.) -- on an empty stomach. I took blood glucose measurements before and at 30 minute intervals for the duration of 2 hours. Blood glucose levels didn't budge. This confirmed what I always believed, that the fiber in fruits renders the sugar harmless. There are also studies demonstrating that high fruit consumption doesn't contribute to carie development.

Not all fruits are just sugar. Two very good examples are avocado and coconuts.
I don't think you should be tolerant of vegetarian choice. I think you should be supportive of it. Most studies show that long term vegetarians live longer and are healthier than meat eaters. You just need to get some good information for her to re-adjust her diet correctly. Just eating carbs and sugars, you are right, is not very healthy.

That's awesome. Will have to try myself. I know that a year after I went low carb I tried some pineapple and just about passed out from the sugar rush.

[shaneatwell]

Try reading the book The China Study, a very well documented and researched book showing how areas in China that transitioned from mostly vegetarian to meat eating suffered all kinds of new health problems. Yes Hindu farmers may not be able to press 500 pounds. Yet i'm sure they could work you and most westerners into the ground. BTW the meat eaters are not truly Hindus. Hinduism prohibits consumption of meat. It is like saying there are muslims and jews that eat pork.

Or check out Denise Minger's debunking of the China Study.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboCgUmgQYQ&list=PL4616C9AEAA766BC3

[fruitlovers]

I think genetics play a large part in what diets work out for a person. Someone with genetics from a tropical country, is more likely to do well in a vegetarian diet with high carbs. Where as someone who has genetics from Northern Europe is more likely to be healthy with a higher protein and fat diet with lower carbs derived from animal protein and milk.

I don't think it's just genetics. After any race, including caucasian, acclimatizes to tropical climate continuing to eat high quantity of meat and dairy is not going to be very good for the body. Yes in frigid areas accumalating lots of body fats to protect from the cold is probably very beneficial...to stay warm. But life longevity of Innuits (Eskimos) i think is extremely short, especially compared to people eating vegetarian diets.

[fruitlovers]

Try reading the book The China Study, a very well documented and researched book showing how areas in China that transitioned from mostly vegetarian to meat eating suffered all kinds of new health problems. Yes Hindu farmers may not be able to press 500 pounds. Yet i'm sure they could work you and most westerners into the ground. BTW the meat eaters are not truly Hindus. Hinduism prohibits consumption of meat. It is like saying there are muslims and jews that eat pork.

Or check out Denise Minger's debunking of the China Study.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboCgUmgQYQ&list=PL4616C9AEAA766BC3

Has ever a book been written that someone else has not debunked? Is there anything at all that is not debunked by someone on youtube? Have you read this book yourself? I doubt it. Why don't you put off judging it until you read it yourself? Then let's hear what you think for your own self.

[shaneatwell]

Try reading the book The China Study, a very well documented and researched book showing how areas in China that transitioned from mostly vegetarian to meat eating suffered all kinds of new health problems. Yes Hindu farmers may not be able to press 500 pounds. Yet i'm sure they could work you and most westerners into the ground. BTW the meat eaters are not truly Hindus. Hinduism prohibits consumption of meat. It is like saying there are muslims and jews that eat pork.

Or check out Denise Minger's debunking of the China Study.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboCgUmgQYQ&list=PL4616C9AEAA766BC3

Has ever a book been written that someone else has not debunked? Is there anything at all that is not debunked by someone on youtube? Have you read this book yourself? I doubt it. Why don't you put off judging it until you read it yourself? Then let's hear what you think for your own self.

True. True. Don't have time to read everything and I don't really care. And same to you.

[Cookie Monster]

Genetics plays a role. You have a group of folks who gain weight on low protein / low fat / high carb diets and end up dying due to complications catalyzed by metabolic syndrome. Then you have another group who can live a long and heart healthy life with a spare tire around the hips but who die of cancer. The latter group should generally be eating more carbs and less protein. .

The two groups of people react to insulin in totally different ways, and it has a profound impact upon which diet is best suited for each group. You can tell which group you fall into with a glucose tolerance test.

I don't think it's just genetics. After any race, including caucasian, acclimatizes to tropical climate continuing to eat high quantity of meat and dairy is not going to be very good for the body. Yes in frigid areas accumalating lots of body fats to protect from the cold is probably very beneficial...to stay warm. But life longevity of Innuits (Eskimos) i think is extremely short, especially compared to people eating vegetarian diets.

[Cookie Monster]

:-) The one fruit I have found that will give me a sugar rush is the persimmon -- but only when I slog down 1/2 dozen or so. Must not have as much fiber as the other fruits?

That's awesome. Will have to try myself. I know that a year after I went low carb I tried some pineapple and just about passed out from the sugar rush.

[stuartdaly88]

We're omnivores, but usually limit our meat/fish consumption to about 4-6 ounces per day.

We have a teenage granddaughter who has gone vegetarian. The whole family is tolerant and respectful of her choice. But it's worrisome because she's becoming ever more focused on carbs/ sugars and her health is suffering. Quite a dilemma for her parents.

Our gardening/ landscaping goals are shade, privacy, appearance, low maintenance, fresh air, exercise, reducing expenses for food, increasing self-reliance and emergency preparedness. We love fruit, BUT there's no way our health could tolerate all the sugar coming from our fruit trees.

Ideally, our selection of what to grow ought to aim for healthy nutrition (both fruits and vegetables), harvest spread out over 12 months, long season staples we eat a lot of, some short season 'treats', and cultivars selected for best taste, disease/insect resistance, ease of growing, extended picking season, and ease of harvesting.

We hope to grow more than we can eat ourselves and share the excess with friends, family, neighbors, and elderly folks who no longer have gardens or access to home grown fruits.

If local codes permitted we would opt to raise some rabbits, ducks, and/or chickens for protein. But that's a no go for the present.

They dont even let you have one little hen for eggs!??? 3 hens make more eggs than I could ever use and the straw in their pen makes awesome compost! They are quiet and dont smell if the pen is large and you change the straw.
 
I would consider raising rabits just for their brown gold! I wouldnt ever eat my bunnies but their crap is top notch stuff doesnt even really need composting and my roses flower like mad! My cousins have a few guini pigs as pets inside they are very affectionate and jump up and down in excitement when they see you their dung is every bit as good.

There are plenty of choices for your grandaughter to fit in more fat and protein! Moringa is a good choice and cooked is Superior to spinach in taste IMO. Hemp has alot of oil and the protein content is extremely high for a plant(and complete with all essential amino acids). Dont worry it has absolutely no illegal or psychoactive component. The unmilled seeds I just chow on with abit of salt like nuts but the husk some people dont like.
Good old fashioned peanut butter will also get the protein and fat up!
I mentioned abov myco protein tastes really good but may be pricey
Quinoa,chia legumes will all balance the diet out. Avos are not bad for protein as fruits go and nice fat content.

There are some really good vegan protein shakes out there but concentrated pea protein gave me gippo guts every single time.
To me hemp protein is king of the powders and doesnt even need to be concentrated at all. Hulled hemp is 33% protein!!!

Iv tried spirolina powder for extra protein and phytonutrients but it turned my hands orange!!(Im pretty protein obsessed actually to tell the truth)

My guess is you are over dosing on protein. A lot of people do. Eating too much protein can cause a LOT of health problems. Google it.

My father had protein poisoning when he was younger as a result of only eating egg whites(very poor as a student and eggs were cheap protein shake) so I am familiar with over consumption
When my protein consumption is high Im weight lifting 3/4 times per week.
I know a few people who have overdone the protein and its not even close to as bad as under consuming!Over doing protein can lead to dehydration, calcium imbalance and of course not getting enough other macronutriens(protein poisoning otherwise known as rabbit starvation) and possibly unhealthy weight gain Under consumption of protein can be horrible and so many deficiency diseases are associated with it they are too numerable to mention.
Many many rich active people under consume protein here it is the building block of all muscle tissue in the body and cannot be understated whether your source is meat based or plant.
Maybe its just living in Africa but for the poor here finding sustainable protein sources is the most important aspect of any food security research especially for growing children and people with wasting diseases such as AIDS protein is life giving.
Moringa has be a Godsend to children and AIDs patients in some rural communities.

In many industrialized countries over consumption of protein seems to be the norm, and it causes a whole range of health problems. In poor countries it is possible to get enough protein without hemp, myco proteins, spirulina, or any new fancy concoction. Hindu culture has been doing it for thousands of years. The Hindus do consume small amounts of dairy as in ghee and curd, but it's a very small part of their diet. Most protein comes from legumes. I'm guessing probably common Hindu Indian farmer is burning more calories and has more muscles than you do.

I would genuinely be interested in links proving over consumption of protein "causes a whole range of health problems" beside those ones I stated as well as how commonly that actually happens even in western diets with very high protein. Theres nothing I love more than being proved wrong as that means Iv discovered something new!

Hemp is not new or fancy and was consumed for thousands of years, Seaweeds have also been consumed for many many years not new or fancy:)
Vegetarian Hindus(many Hindus actually consume meat btw) also consume yogurt and dairy in decent amounts yes with legumes this could definitely be enough protein for some people as long as though got all the essential amino acids in their diet.
I have a strong interest in Ayervedic approach to health which is very concerned with the diet. Diet is entirely dependent on the person and people are segmented into types that have completely different dietary requirements. Pitta body types are recommended alot of protein Kapha would be lower protein diets.(this is ofcourse drastically over simplified)
Maybe Im completely wrong/misinformed but Hindu farmers are very lean in my mind. Whenever I have seen pictures of indians farming they have been healthy looking but extremely lean or slow twitch muscle fibers, thats not what my weight lifting is usually going for Im more about fast twitch explosive strength which requires high amounts of protein in the diet.

Try reading the book The China Study, a very well documented and researched book showing how areas in China that transitioned from mostly vegetarian to meat eating suffered all kinds of new health problems. Yes Hindu farmers may not be able to press 500 pounds. Yet i'm sure they could work you and most westerners into the ground. BTW the meat eaters are not truly Hindus. Hinduism prohibits consumption of meat. It is like saying there are muslims and jews that eat pork.

A book is not really what Im looking for, books often distort facts and follow the agenda of the author. All kinds of new health problems is pretty vague I will search and see if I can find the studies and sources of the book. So basically what the book cites. If the book doesnt cite anything its probably suspect anyway:)

Im not a laborer and all day stamina is not my goal but I do often have to lift very heavy things so I will take the explosive strength of lifting 500 pounds as preference

I have known Hindus who would be very upset to find out they are "not truly Hindus".  Vegetarianism is very common among Hindus but hardly all prevailing Historical or now. The Rig Veda has numerous accounts of both meat eating and even animal sacrifice.
"Hindu dharma generally recommends vegetarianism, " notes Vedacharya Vamadeva Shastri, "but it is not a requirement to be a Hindu."
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/meat-eating.asp

Anyway lets end end this now. You stated I have veiled prejudices against vegetarians well that may or may not be true but you prejudices against "meat eaters" is pretty much overt. The attitude of moral and dietetic superiority displayed by many vegetarians(note I said many not all!)is why your so called "meat eaters often feel a certain amount of disdain for them all as a group(unfair but true).
Many omnivorous people may be much more open to eating less meat but this kind of attitude causes anger and defensively actually pushes omnivores further away from including more plant based nutrition. I know at least it did for me when faced with the vitriol of overzealous vegetarian cousins. Onlylater in life the joy of growing plants brought me back to altering my diet for the better and not being based primarily on meat and carbs
I will continue to promote protein consumption as it works for me and is still a massive problem in my part of the world. kwashiorkor is not a myth or a conspiracy and mainly effects the young and infirm,  I do however believe complete plant based sources of protein such as moringa and hemp are the only sustainable solution.

For myself as privileged middle class I hunt every single year, my family get at least a large elandt, a few impalas or a couple wildebees and a large Kudu every single inch of that animal is used even the offal is relished by the farm workers.
We fill the chest and upright freezer and it last until next year. Besides the fact that without hunting in S.A millions of acres of land now dedicated to game would be mielie farms or the like and many antelope such as rhone and sable may even be extinct. I love meat and especially biltong for its taste and as part of my diet:) Could I get by and be healthy without meat? sure, but my choice is not to and that doesnt make me any less of a person or an evil doer or unhealthy compared to others except maybe in your own opinion
Game farms are free of predators and actually will desertify if means arnt taken to control the animals. Also if you have ever seen a lion or pack of cape hunting dogs kill an antelope the quick bullet is a mercy compared to that drawnout gruesome end. I respect every animal I have killed and feel some sadness every single time.
Even if the game farms were commercially viable withot hunting

Who knows maybe if I lived in a tropical paradise such as where you live I could do without the meat!
As I find more protein sources that are grown I definitely eat less meat and I definitly think I could still eat less and be happy.

Diversity in my garden is a true goal that I am still far from achieving both my collection obsession and for my diet getting my family to try eating all these "weird" things is another problem altogether lol. I could not believe how long it took just to get them to try okra!

Im glad vegetarianism brings you peace and health, it is not my path at the moment but everyone must decide for themselves and do what they think is correct. My views change as I grow and learn maybe one day I will feel differently:)

[fruitlovers]

The China Study is a well researched project, with facts and figures gleaned over many years of study by a well known PhD. It is not the opinion of one person. But you seem rather cozy in all your prsent opinions. I don't really know why you bother to ask for anything from anyone else? 

[Rtreid]

Getting back on topic...

For the most part, I am going for diversity as an experimental paradigm. You guys in Florida have a much greater depth of experience in what does and does not do well in your area. Here in California we have much less experience with the with the diversity of subtropical fruits out there. So part of what I do (and preach) is grow everything possible to see how they might survive here.  It is a funny thing, there are many fruits that "cannot be grown in CA, but when I ask people, including those who have been growing rare fruits for decades, no one has ever tried. So I am trying. In a lot of cases the conventional wisdom is correct, but in other cases it looks like some plants might do ok, if not well.

Richard

[FlyingFoxFruits]

so many varieties of myrciaria, eugenia, annona, garcinia and pouteria to collect it's like beanie babies, pogs, and treasure trolls combined.

I've always had a "collect the whole set" mentality.

I'm just obsessed with all of the varieties and species there are...but I'm not trying to grow everything under the sun.

I like to stick to the genera and families listed above...but every now and then, I get lured in by a random new species.

I guess it's because I'm also obsessed with monotypic taxa!

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=8663.msg110927#msg110927

[stuartdaly88]

so many varieties of myrciaria, eugenia, annona, garcinia and pouteria to collect it's like beanie babies, pogs, and treasure trolls combined.

I've always had a "collect the whole set" mentality.

I'm just obsessed with all of the varieties and species there are...but I'm not trying to grow everything under the sun.

I like to stick to the genera and families listed above...but every now and then, I get lured in by a random new species.

I guess it's because I'm also obsessed with monotypic taxa!

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=8663.msg110927#msg110927

Those are the highly collectible genuses all right!
It gets really bad when your collection addicted brain even covets the ones in the same family
myrciaria, eugenia, annona, garcinia and pouteria, are not enough anymore you want the interesting Myrtaceae, Annonaceae, Clusiaceae and Sapotaceae!!
For the full family reuinion ha ha

Being in Africa Im also really interested in collecting genuses that have a strong presence here:) Dovyalis,Strychnos, Diospyros, Manilkara etc

[jez251]

...I've always had a "collect the whole set" mentality...

I was reading Adam's post through RSS where you get a snippet of the message, and I thought it was going to say Collect the world, which I thought was a pretty cool phrase for my initial mission, until I found out that I could never possibly do that. Doesn't stop me from trying though...

Jaime

[gunnar429]

For me, it's a bit of a trade off.  I enjoy having different types of fruits at different times of year so I am grateful for my eugenias, jabos, etc.  But, on the other hand, I like to collect the tastiest selections, such as with mango, avocado, jackfruit, etc.   I think it's good to have a mix, but I definitely lean more towards what I know will give me tasty fruit most years than to fruit something rare once in a blue moon.  If I had more space, things would probably be different.