Author Topic: prague citsuma  (Read 4452 times)

Wahl

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prague citsuma
« on: June 24, 2024, 11:10:44 PM »
Does anyone know what variety of satsuma is in the prague? I have some seedlings I sprouted off of the prague and was just wondering what the variety satsuma is.
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jim VH

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2024, 10:49:00 AM »
Hey Wahl,

  Slightly off topic: Your Prague had seeds? My Prague has never had seeds in 8 years of fruit.

Jim

Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2024, 12:32:29 PM »
Yes just a few. I had 20 fruit 2 years ago any was able to get 6 seeds. Some of them came back it looks like as satsuma and some as a cross with satsuma and Poncirus. I have them on youtube if you want to see.
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dytandme

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2024, 11:09:18 AM »
Yes just a few. I had 20 fruit 2 years ago any was able to get 6 seeds. Some of them came back it looks like as satsuma and some as a cross with satsuma and Poncirus. I have them on youtube if you want to see.

The ones that look like poncirus, do you mean that they are trifoliate? I'm certainly curious about them.

Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2024, 11:59:08 AM »
Yes just a few. I had 20 fruit 2 years ago any was able to get 6 seeds. Some of them came back it looks like as satsuma and some as a cross with satsuma and Poncirus. I have them on youtube if you want to see.

The ones that look like poncirus, do you mean that they are trifoliate? I'm certainly curious about them.

I think they look more like a cross to me satsuma X Poncirus but I have not been arount a lot of trifoliate so do not know if they are a cross or a mix. You can look at them and tell me what you think. I real want to know what the  satsuma is.
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dytandme

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2024, 01:21:59 PM »
Do you mind posting a link to the youtube video you mentioned? I'm still curious what the babies look like, especially with a chimeric parent.

I wish I could tell you what was crossed to make the prague specifically, but info is sparse. This post suggests it doesn't even have satsuma parentage: https://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/post/3693/thread

This link suggests that it's origins are unknown: https://hardycitrus.blogspot.com/2020/02/prague-citsuma.html

I would like to get my hands on one of those prauge citsumas though...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 01:26:04 PM by dytandme »

Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2024, 10:45:48 PM »
Do you mind posting a link to the youtube video you mentioned? I'm still curious what the babies look like, especially with a chimeric parent.

I wish I could tell you what was crossed to make the prague specifically, but info is sparse. This post suggests it doesn't even have satsuma parentage: https://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/post/3693/thread

This link suggests that it's origins are unknown: https://hardycitrus.blogspot.com/2020/02/prague-citsuma.html

I would like to get my hands on one of those prauge citsumas though...

Here you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbMZw7BDTIQ

I would would say it is satsuma since most of the seedlings look like that.
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a_Vivaldi

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2024, 12:06:48 AM »
Very interesting video! Thanks for posting it.

dytandme

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2024, 12:23:46 AM »
There is a lot more info out there after losing a day and a half down the chimeric rabbit hole... however, to the point, flowers on the prague will be either trifoliate or mandarin, but never a true cross. But it is possible they could cross pollinate on the same prague parent plant.

What was the fruit you got the seeds from like? A mandarin or a trifoliate? If you got two stems from a single seed, it's likely one is a nucellar embryo and the other is cross pollinated, meaning you may have a mandarin x trifoliate seedling there.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2024, 12:30:21 AM by dytandme »

Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2024, 12:48:59 AM »
All the fruit are great and taste like satsuma with no trifoliate taste. Did they look like trifoliate? I think they look like a cross. I have 6 that look like satsumas and 3 that look like a cross. We will see if I can keep them a live.
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dytandme

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2024, 07:48:29 AM »
I rewatched the video and reread some info. It's still unclear to me what the odds are that the chimeric trait will be passed on to seed, but it seems to be unlikely. So genetically speaking, I'd imagine that you have three satsuma x ?? crosses started there. Cool!

a_Vivaldi

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2024, 08:52:41 AM »
I believe I read that Prague seeds should be formed by the Satsuma cell layer. In that case, yeah, any Prague seedlings with non satsuma leaves should be hybrids. If that's the case, I'm surprised by how many there are. Most satsumas are highly nucellar iirc

dytandme

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2024, 09:20:39 AM »
Sounds right to what I've read. That's why I asked Wahl what the fruits resembled, to be sure they were from the satsuma layer. I was thinking the six satsuma seedlings would be nucellar clones of the prauge's satsuma layer.

It's good to know that there are more hybrids out there as I chase my own holy grail, a zone 6b compatible in ground citrus with palatable fruit.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2024, 10:11:57 AM »
Makes sense. Yeah, it'll be really interesting to see how those hybrids turn out and if they'll handle Wahl's climate. I'm kinda wondering if I should get a Prague now. I've held off on it since I didn't see much breeding value in them, and I can grow regular satsumas without too much protection here. But I'm not aware of many satsumas that can be used as parents (even as pollen parents, since a lot of satsumas are nearly sterile) given the low seededness, poor vigor, and them being highly nucellar. If it turns out Prague is reliably producing zygotic seed with satsuma as the female parent, that's really useful!

I guess it depends on how long you plan on living, haha. Man, zone 6b is a tough one. Are there even any 50/50 trifoliate hybrids that survive 6b, I'd have thought you'd need an F2 or backcross to trifoliate to get that kind of cold tolerance? Still, totally doable, it'll just take a while. But there's been such an explosion of breeding work and available material in the last few years. We've got Kim Bowman releasing all these new hybrid rootstocks, many of which should be quite useful for breeding, we've got kumin and his massive trial, we've got Ilya and others in Europe doing their thing (if a bit slower given their higher latitude and shorter, cooler summers), and all the numerous others who are working on new crosses.

I can't imagine we're more than a decade or two away from some pretty significant results in cold hardy citrus, both in terms of zone 8 hardy commercial-quality citruses and zone 7 or maybe 6 hardy palatable citrus.

Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2024, 12:26:13 PM »
I wonder if the true satsuma off of the prague will have seeds or be seedless. I'm going to try and keep them alive. I have trouble keeping the crosses alive here, got down to 0F the last 2 years. I protect all my plant the best I can. I'm hoping to get more seeds this year and see how they turn out since the  prague was the only thing blooming this year, since alot of the others died.
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vnomonee

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2024, 09:36:24 PM »
Hi Wahl, I follow you on youtube (raregrowsNJ). All of your seedlings are interesting, you def have some trifoliate crosses in there my uneducated guess was probably from some of the Prague flowers producing trifoliate pollen but I'm not sure if that is the process. Only way to find out what the satsuma or mandarin is, would be to grow out the pure seedlings to get a better idea of what it is but without some genetic testing you probably won't know the exact plant.

My zone used to be 6b but at some point it was updated to "7a" even before the new zoning map, it didn't go up from that most recent update. The coldest so far has been 1f, Prague and Taitri (taiwanica x trifoliate) sailed through just some sun scald on the Prague, the Taitri was not harmed.

drymifolia

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2024, 02:09:50 PM »
Stan McKenzie (who is the presumptive source of all Prague clones in the U.S.) said that he's never seen a seed in Prague, so it would be interesting if it can produce seeds when exposed to specific pollen (especially if the seeds are likely 100% zygotic since it doesn't seem to produce nucellar seeds in the absence of pollen).

Skandiberg

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2024, 02:20:13 PM »
Yes, that's right. If only Prague could pass down fruit quality and hardiness at the same time to its seedlings. If it miraculously did, Wahl would hit the jackpot on the Citrus lottery.

Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2024, 11:27:30 PM »
Stan McKenzie (who is the presumptive source of all Prague clones in the U.S.) said that he's never seen a seed in Prague, so it would be interesting if it can produce seeds when exposed to specific pollen (especially if the seeds are likely 100% zygotic since it doesn't seem to produce nucellar seeds in the absence of pollen).

Some one else told me they never had seeds either. I'll see if they have seeds this year.
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Wahl

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2024, 11:30:07 PM »
Hi Wahl, I follow you on youtube (raregrowsNJ). All of your seedlings are interesting, you def have some trifoliate crosses in there my uneducated guess was probably from some of the Prague flowers producing trifoliate pollen but I'm not sure if that is the process. Only way to find out what the satsuma or mandarin is, would be to grow out the pure seedlings to get a better idea of what it is but without some genetic testing you probably won't know the exact plant.

My zone used to be 6b but at some point it was updated to "7a" even before the new zoning map, it didn't go up from that most recent update. The coldest so far has been 1f, Prague and Taitri (taiwanica x trifoliate) sailed through just some sun scald on the Prague, the Taitri was not harmed.

I watch your videos too. Keep them coming. You have a nice brick wall which is really nice for thermal heat.
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dytandme

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Re: prague citsuma
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2024, 08:30:40 PM »
Are there even any 50/50 trifoliate hybrids that survive 6b

That's what I've been investigating. Thus far, I don't have any more leads than the prauge, some seedlings from kumin including poncirus plus, and a single unusually cold hardy calamondin whose babies I am currently raising.

As much as I enjoy using microclimates to my advantage, I'm not convinced that anything will be a "foolproof" choice even in the best of spots.


Yes, that's right. If only Prague could pass down fruit quality and hardiness at the same time to its seedlings. If it miraculously did, Wahl would hit the jackpot on the Citrus lottery.

Someone is going to at some point in time. May as well keep your fingers crossed its Wahl!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2024, 08:32:39 PM by dytandme »

 

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