Vanilla pompona from seed?

[booeyschewy]

A lot of interesting stuff here and parallels. I’ve read about fermenting vanilla and tried with some wild v. palmarum without much success. Seems like a nightmare. In Brazil we have a severe labor shortage so it’s off the table. One thing I’ve learned and tried is basically gathering wild vanilla that splits or is sub optimal, lazily semi fermenting it and drying it and then creating extract in alcohol. It worked well for personal use!

Here I’m seeing people planting on cacao trees supposedly without messing with the cacao.

Pamplona has a supply chain and high price, but hand pollination increases productivity drastically and that with fermentation seems super laborious. Most of the other species have never been tested even for culinary appeal. Embrapa (Brazilian usda) is doing some preliminary tests. We’ve found vanilla palmarum, phaentha, and cribbiana here and lots others unidentified.

In Costa Rica you find enough workers I take it and ones who don’t trash the plants? Id love to ferment vanilla if I could find a way to make it work.

[agroventuresperu]

Same here about the labor shortage. I've seen how things went from lots of eager, available workers at the beginning of 2020, to basically having to beg anyone to show up nowadays. Hiring someone with their weedwacker to work for a day has doubled in price in that time frame. Can maybe get WWOOFers to help with more easy tasks. I've debated about advertizing for them here, as it's mostly just rough work. Don't think it's a good idea to throw the volunteers out into brush taller than them with a weedwacker with metal blades.

Planting on cacao sounds like a good idea. Here, we're going to plant onto many different species, so some cuttings will definitely perform better than others.

There are some wild vines that flowered recently in our forest. Not sure what species they are, but we took some photos from far below and some folks think they're pompona. I've been reading that the flowers are quite morphologically distint from one locale to the next when it comes to pompona. I've been reading about the genus in Peru, and it's one of those topics where I call into question the taxonomy. Like maybe there's actually different species that haven't been splitted yet or perhaps other species are variable to the extent that they might almost look identical to certain pompona flowers. Maybe it's one of those cases where there's only one PHD in the entire country who could identify a species and say that it's a pompona with a different-looking flower instead of a completely different species.

What I mean by this is that maybe no one really knows. I started reading a book, El Genero Vanilla en el Peru, and already I'm seeing some major contradictions, mostly having to do with the different subspecies, the Regiones where they grow, as well as their altitude. Seems to conflict with the common knowledge that pompona is native to this area {the Alto Mayo [Selva alta norte], part of the San Martin [SM] region}, which is a valley that ranges in elevation from about 800-1000m. Apparently there are two susbspecies, but it still doesn't add up. According to page 35 and 36, neither should be found in our area, even though lots of people have found them growing wild here, and cuttings have been taken from the wild specimens to use in the commercial production in our area. https://fondoeditorial.cientifica.edu.pe/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/el-genero-vanilla-avance-de-lectura.pdf

I also came across one study that shows significant morphological differences from a fairly small geographical range in Mexico. https://www.mdpi.com/1424-2818/15/11/1125

And here's a photo showing the variability from four different countries: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/anilla-pompona-different-flowering-specimens-showing-variations-across-its-geographical_fig29_347787100

It sounds like one of those things you can't really put your finger on. Just wondering how worthwhile it would be to harvest our own wild cuttings based on some experienced people opining that it's Pompona. If there's that much variability amongst the flowers, then fruit quality probably also varies widely.

[booeyschewy]

That makes sense and I have the same problem. We’ve found some 5 species so far and only 1 has been identified with certainty. Like anything else in agriculture if you don’t know how to sell it it’s a big risk. That said there seems to be a market for wild vanillas but who knows if you can access it, whether the winds shift in a few years etc.

Wow I thought it was mostly the welfare system here in Brazil unfortunately post pandemic but makes sense it’s a broader trend. Off topic but we ended up getting a remote controlled mower from China but didn’t speed things up much because it’s small and gets hung up on uneven ground. A bigger one and more powerful would probably work but we’re looking at either just redoing everything for tractors (and just planting timber on slopes) or giving up all together. Hard to do agriculture if there’s no one willing to do the work!

[Finca La Isla]

Who is buying pampona there and how much do they pay?  Supposedly it is only useful in the perfume trade and not for culinary vanilla.
We sell small amounts of plenifolia and plenifolia hybrids here in CR. Larger scale vendors get about $500 kg.
Planting on cacao sounds attractive but the reality is that the crops get in the way of each other. We’re growing on nitrogen fixers like glircydium.
Peter

[booeyschewy]

Burlap and barrel https://www.burlapandbarrel.com/products/wild-pompona-vanilla

I had the same worry about cacao but there’s people doing it here. Not my plan but it’s an option. We’re using gliricidia for pitaya and whatnot on a small scale for personal use too.

[Finca La Isla]

Besides glyrcidium I also like appropriate erythrina. It’s another nitrogen fixer that can be established by sticking a stick in the ground.
Also, what I saw in Mexico is using citrus. Lime or orange have clean trunks, give some shade and, unlike cacao, the fruit is borne more terminally on the branches so the fruits don’t get in the way of each other. Limes is a good crop for small scale farming. Bars will buy hundreds of them.
Peter

[agroventuresperu]

Besides glyrcidium I also like appropriate erythrina. It’s another nitrogen fixer that can be established by sticking a stick in the ground.
Also, what I saw in Mexico is using citrus. Lime or orange have clean trunks, give some shade and, unlike cacao, the fruit is borne more terminally on the branches so the fruits don’t get in the way of each other. Limes is a good crop for small scale farming. Bars will buy hundreds of them.
Peter

What is the species of Gliricidium? I'm not sure I've seen that here.

[agroventuresperu]

That makes sense and I have the same problem. We’ve found some 5 species so far and only 1 has been identified with certainty. Like anything else in agriculture if you don’t know how to sell it it’s a big risk. That said there seems to be a market for wild vanillas but who knows if you can access it, whether the winds shift in a few years etc.

Wow I thought it was mostly the welfare system here in Brazil unfortunately post pandemic but makes sense it’s a broader trend. Off topic but we ended up getting a remote controlled mower from China but didn’t speed things up much because it’s small and gets hung up on uneven ground. A bigger one and more powerful would probably work but we’re looking at either just redoing everything for tractors (and just planting timber on slopes) or giving up all together. Hard to do agriculture if there’s no one willing to do the work!

Your situation sounds very similar. We've got very uneven ground on our farm. I've felt like giving up recently. I have ambitions and I want things to scale, but it's not very feasible when you can't find reliable help. Would be nice to visit your farm and Peter's at some point. Probably a lot to learn from the both of you.

[booeyschewy]

I haven’t messed with erythrina though I find it beautiful. It has a bad rap here because it became the plant for cacao and then research showed it wasn’t the best so everyone maligns it lol. As a living post could be interesting though.

We have loads of rangpur lime and can’t sell it! No one seems interested except every person in the cities struggling to find it.

Agroventuresperu come visit anytime. We have space. I’d love to visit as well but we’re prisoners on the farm with animals and the year round harvests.

[Finca La Isla]

Glytcidia sepium is what I’m speaking of. It’s called madre cacao in southern Mexico. I see it all over the world as it’s so useful. Native to southern Mexico and Central America.
We have at least 5 different erythrina here.  They have nice flowers and one type is used widely for shading coffee in CR. A different one is used for posts.

You never said who buys the pampona and for what? And how much do they pay!
Peter

[booeyschewy]

It’s these guys that buy pompona. I can send the contact with the buyer if you want. Not sure on price or if they need more. I don’t have enough vanilla to sell commercially so never asked. https://www.burlapandbarrel.com/products/wild-pompona-vanilla

[Finca La Isla]

So that’s the first time I have ever seen anyone trying to commercialize pampona. Vanilla farm tours in Mexico often have it as a novelty to show visitors but don’t seem to grow it seriously.
The page say, on the one hand, that the vanilla is wild collected and then says it’s grown on small farms. Two very different claims. Also, it’s not rare in the wild, just in cultivation. I’ve collected it here in CR but we don’t work out. If you can sell a single pod for $22 it’s quite a business!
If there was a reliable buyer for a good price I’d probably grow it. But 100 plants might be the way I’d start. That would produce quite a bit of vanilla. Vanilla is easy to grow and pollinate, curing is tricky but doable.
Peter

[Radoslav]

Since there’s somebody processing vanilla in your area you might just sell them the green vanilla. The largest processor in Mexico buys green vanilla from more than 500 small farms.
If, before the vanilla bean begins to ripen on the vine, you wrap a thread around it so it doesn’t split open it can ripen on the plant without any process. This vanilla is of very good quality but lacks the presentation for selling as a whole premium bean although for making an extract and/or kitchen use it is the best.
Saludos, Peter

I read, that vanilla bean has to go trought fermentation before use.
So, according to your experiences it is not necessary process for kitchen use?

[Finca La Isla]

It’s a good question.  I’ve been asked,’how would people ever get started with something like vanilla when the fresh bean doesn’t have any fragrance and you have to go through a lengthy, somewhat complicated process to achieve a result?’
In a vanilla grove, vanilla beans that don’t get harvested will split open and fall to the ground where they frequently process themselves and when that occurs you are going to experience a wonderful vanilla smell.
The fermentation that takes place in the conventional process is not typical of other ferments.  Every day for about 3 weeks the beans are set out in the sun or gently dried in a dehydrator, then gathered up and placed in a box overnight.  Then the next day they go back in the sun.  The time spent, at night, in the box is when the fermentation takes place.
The combination of drying every day is very different from any other fermentation process I’m aware of.  Since it’s such a slight fermentation is why I think the beans can cure in the open on the plant.
Peter

[Radoslav]

Thanks for the info, your idea is definitely worth a try.

[agroventuresperu]

Wild Vanilla from our forest. Still not sure what species these are. It looks like only one or two species. Probably cribbiana or hostmannii. If anyone here can help me ID these, I would love it!

First some habitat photos:







Left to right - Flower 1 and Flower 2. Flowers from different vines growing in very close proximity.



Flower 2 (same specimen as above photo)









These flowers have a pretty strong aroma. Reminded me of Brugmansia flowers.

[agroventuresperu]

Another flower bud from Flower 1's cutting opened a day later, even though it was a day after the cutting was taken.








Flower 3 and 4 - Harvested from one vine growing in very close proximity to the vines of flowers 1 and 2. For all I know these could all be the same plant, because they travel along the forest floor until they find a suitable tree. The part along the ground could have broken off and decomposed long ago.












Foliage of the vine of flowers 3/4

[agroventuresperu]

Found another vine in a completely different area of our property. This was the last pod on that vine. Was hard to separate from the plant. Still had a faint vanilla smell even though it had been hanging in the open air for who knows how many months. I'll probably cultivate this plant, and maybe the others too. The only samples of pompona pods I've been introduced to locally didn't really have much aroma at all. At least this wild plant that had been hanging in the open air for who knows how long still had a faint and agreeable aroma. According to a local friend, I just haven't been exposed to "properly cured" samples of pompona. But I'm not willing to take the risk of paying the exorbitant prices to get some pompona that smells mediocre at best.

[Finca La Isla]

What you have in the fotos doesn’t look that much like pompona.
I’m wondering if the vanilla that occurs there, pompona or not, has been cultivated traditionally or is it an activity that is more recent.
Peter

[agroventuresperu]

Glytcidia sepium is what I’m speaking of. It’s called madre cacao in southern Mexico. I see it all over the world as it’s so useful. Native to southern Mexico and Central America.
We have at least 5 different erythrina here.  They have nice flowers and one type is used widely for shading coffee in CR. A different one is used for posts.

You never said who buys the pampona and for what? And how much do they pay!
Peter

I don't think I've noticed Gliricidia sepium here.


About the V. pompona, I don't know who's buying it, but it smells like Tulip mania to me. Someone we know who grows it, says he's selling pods for 60 soles right now which is about 16USD. Seems crazy to me. I could imagine someone in the US paying that retail in the USA, but someone's paying that here in Peru, which makes me wonder how much it must end up costing once sold to the end user. Earlier you mentioned that you think it's used for the perfume trade instead of for culinary use. Seems like it would be the opposite. The only ones I've sampled had very lacklaster, basically absent, aroma. According to our acquaintance, he thinks that's because those pods were poorly cured, but some of them were ones at a tourist destination that has a small V. pompona farm, so you would think they would place the choicest pods for all the tourists to smell in order to help generate sales.

One of the family members who owns that farm told us on the tour that V. planifolia "doesn't grow successfully here". Who knows if that's really true, but the Alto Mayo is pretty much all pompona, and it's starting to seem like everyone and their aunt and uncle is starting to cultivate it. So, maybe it's not such a bad idea to grab a different wild species and run with it, in order to differentiate one's vanilla from the next farmer's. It's not true what they say that planifolia and pompona are the only commercial species. I think it's noteworthy that this cribbiana offering is the most expensive vanilla on this website: https://indrivanilla.com/products/mexico-v-cribbiana-vanilla-beans

We just need to get started doing something on our farm that can generate a decent amount of cash flow. My wife already has a biodegradable soap business and the vanilla would tie in nicely.

Not an expert on the topic by any means, but it is my sense that pompona (or any vanilla) cultivation is not a traditional aspect of the local culture. .. I have a hunch that this started as some scheme hatched by local NGOs, along with crafty PR, to find creative ways to generate income for the local indigenous groups, and has now blossomed into Tulip mania.

[agroventuresperu]

We have loads of rangpur lime and can’t sell it! No one seems interested except every person in the cities struggling to find it.

Agroventuresperu come visit anytime. We have space. I’d love to visit as well but we’re prisoners on the farm with animals and the year round harvests.

Growing up in Santa Barbara, California, we used to have one of those lime trees in our yard. The best thing about that tree was when someone would visit us and pick and eat one without permission, thinking they were tangerines.

I would love to take a trip and visit. Never been to Brazil. I'm in the same boat as you, though. We recently started with cows, so they can help us with the land maintenance since it's cost prohibitive and difficult to find workers to help weedwack everything. We're doing rotational grazing, and I'm finding that it's more work than I had anticipated. Feels like if we're not getting ahead, we're falling behind. Haven't had much to harvests so far, but it looks like the Annona squamosa trees are going to hit hard this year. Any ideas for a value-added product with the Annona pulp? We've found ice cream isn't a good idea, because the local milk yields cream with some off flavor and inconsistent texture. Not sure why, but I heard a cheese seller say they found the same with cows here in the jungle compared to cows from the higher altitude mountain regions. I'm not a fan of the cheeses they sell here in the jungle. It's true that the cheeses that come from the mountains have much better flavor.

[agroventuresperu]

What you have in the fotos doesn’t look that much like pompona.
I’m wondering if the vanilla that occurs there, pompona or not, has been cultivated traditionally or is it an activity that is more recent.
Peter

So, are you still of the opinion that I should cultivate primarily planifolia? pompona? the wild ones from the forest?
I could argue a case for any of the options.

BTW, what is the avg. annual rainfall at your farm? Elevation? Does planifolia yield well under those conditions? Just learned from an orchid grower today that pompona is more shade-tolerant than planifolia.

[agroventuresperu]

A lot of interesting stuff here and parallels. I’ve read about fermenting vanilla and tried with some wild v. palmarum without much success. Seems like a nightmare. In Brazil we have a severe labor shortage so it’s off the table. One thing I’ve learned and tried is basically gathering wild vanilla that splits or is sub optimal, lazily semi fermenting it and drying it and then creating extract in alcohol. It worked well for personal use!

Here I’m seeing people planting on cacao trees supposedly without messing with the cacao.

Pamplona has a supply chain and high price, but hand pollination increases productivity drastically and that with fermentation seems super laborious. Most of the other species have never been tested even for culinary appeal. Embrapa (Brazilian usda) is doing some preliminary tests. We’ve found vanilla palmarum, phaentha, and cribbiana here and lots others unidentified.

In Costa Rica you find enough workers I take it and ones who don’t trash the plants? Id love to ferment vanilla if I could find a way to make it work.

Do you have photos of your cribbiana by any chance? The photos available on the internet seem to all be from central america.

[agroventuresperu]

What do you think?
Left - Specimen from French Guyana. Right - Specimen from our forest



A photo from someone's facebook

[booeyschewy]

Cribbiana- someone identified vanilla we found on a fallen tree as cribbiana here, but it’s quite rare so I’m unsure.

Animals and agroforestry- we had the same instinct but our agronomist advised against it because basically all the labor involved. I know a guy who does it but he has seemingly unlimited resources. They stake every small tree to protect from pigs and rotate frequently. Great idea but a lot of work.

Value added products- definitely necessary and interesting if you have easy access to the market. When drowning though I’d simplify and scale down. It’s hard to expand when you’re struggling to do basic maintenance. But at the same time you have to survive. No easy answers here, and we’re in the same boat.

If I remember right I had heard that planifolia doesn’t do well in the equatorial tropics because it requires seasonal light variation?

Send me a pm if you want to chat on WhatsApp off thread some time too