Vanilla pompona from seed?

[Finca La Isla]

BTW, what is the avg. annual rainfall at your farm? Elevation? Does planifolia yield well under those conditions? Just learned from an orchid grower today that pompona is more shade-tolerant than planifolia.

Average rainfall is variable from very low of 85” to a high of more than 200”. It probably averages at about 120”. We are just above sea level.
It took us about 8 years to become a profitable farm. I have a construction background and I did some contracting, electric, pump installations, stuff like that.
You really need to have a good idea of the market to be successful. Not everything will work. Between the challenges of production and the issues of selling a lot can go wrong. What has worked the best for me really are the fruit trees like mangosteen and durian. Many things have come together but I’ve been at this since 1987. The last twelve years or so we’ve been making chocolate bars and this has worked out for us.
But vanilla has potential for us since we have a farmers market. Juice and kombucha producers buy vanilla as well in small quantities. I’m able to get $4 a bean. I’m over diversified but that’s more fun. I’m 74 and this is all my passion. I’ll never retire!  Also, huge plus, my son is really into all this stuff so the project is multigenerational.

[agroventuresperu]

Another flower bud from Flower 1's cutting opened a day later, even though it was a day after the cutting was taken.








Flower 3 and 4 - Harvested from one vine growing in very close proximity to the vines of flowers 1 and 2. For all I know these could all be the same plant, because they travel along the forest floor until they find a suitable tree. The part along the ground could have broken off and decomposed long ago.












Foliage of the vine of flowers 3/4

Today I realized that I had overlooked an old pod still clinging to a piece of vine from the plant that produced flowers 3 and 4. From the looks of it, the pod had probably been hanging up there for about a year. Here's what that pod looks like compared to some poorly cured pompona pods that someone gave us. I picked it and gave it a sniff. No real tell tale vanilla smell, which is probably not much of a surprise since you can see mold starting to form on the pod. The pod's aroma, although faint, reminded me of the wood smell from a good sauna.

[agroventuresperu]

BTW, what is the avg. annual rainfall at your farm? Elevation? Does planifolia yield well under those conditions? Just learned from an orchid grower today that pompona is more shade-tolerant than planifolia.

Average rainfall is variable from very low of 85” to a high of more than 200”. It probably averages at about 120”. We are just above sea level.
It took us about 8 years to become a profitable farm. I have a construction background and I did some contracting, electric, pump installations, stuff like that.
You really need to have a good idea of the market to be successful. Not everything will work. Between the challenges of production and the issues of selling a lot can go wrong. What has worked the best for me really are the fruit trees like mangosteen and durian. Many things have come together but I’ve been at this since 1987. The last twelve years or so we’ve been making chocolate bars and this has worked out for us.
But vanilla has potential for us since we have a farmers market. Juice and kombucha producers buy vanilla as well in small quantities. I’m able to get $4 a bean. I’m over diversified but that’s more fun. I’m 74 and this is all my passion. I’ll never retire!  Also, huge plus, my son is really into all this stuff so the project is multigenerational.

Too much rainfall wouldn't be a limiting factor at our farm for planifolia cultivation. I thought maybe we are too wet, but you're as wet or even wetter. Maybe elevation could be a limiting factor? We're at 900-950 meters elevation, which makes things slightly cooler than the low jungle. Not by much though. As booeyschewy said, perhaps the day lenght variability could be the limiting factor, but San Jose Costa Rica is about 9.9 latitude and we're about -6.2 Which is really not much difference. They've also recently started cultivating planifolia in Peru, but I think there's only one farm that has entered into production so far. The original 1000 cuttings were brought from Mexico in October 2023 and established by a University in Tarapoto, which is very close to us. Sounds like they're also trying to import Tahitian vanilla. I'd like to try growing all four: planifolia, tahitiensis, pompona, and the wild species from our property. The aroma from the pod I harvested a couple days ago, has started growing on me. I got up the next morning and noticed the aroma in the room, and it seems like it has a "chocolatey" scent. If I harvest some fresh pods of it and go through a proper curing process, it seems like it could be something.

[agroventuresperu]

I'm about 80-90% sure the one from our forest is hostmannii. Just awaiting confirmation from the author of the book I linked to earlier.

[Finca La Isla]

It would certainly be interesting if you could develop a new vanilla and monetize it. But I would definitely grow something commercially known. With a good plenifolia, for instance, you’d have something highly commercial and it could provide a pathway for something new at the same time.

I think I’m about 9.4N. So anything within ten degrees would be equatorial. Areas where vanilla is traditionally grown in Mexico are well to the north and perhaps could correspond to a higher altitude in an equatorial location.
Peter

[agroventuresperu]

Well my plan is to try three different species. Planifolia being one of them. I wouldn't say planifolia is a surefire bet here. There's not much production of it here in Peru, so I wonder if that means international buyers skip the country when looking for sources of planifolia? It is my sense that pompona is the bigtime vanilla that international buyers are purchasing from Peru. I haven't even been able to find a source for a decent amount of planifolia cuttings here.

[Finca La Isla]

When you say ‘big time buyers’ I’m wondering who they are and how many tons of vanilla they’re buying. I have Pompona and I would plant it if I thought that it has a market. Is it actually that good?  You think I should start producing it commercially?  I don’t need a big buyer. If I have something really good I would have plenty of buyers at our farmers market.
Peter

[booeyschewy]

There’s definitely a market for wild vanilla. Accessing it is another matter. In Brazil I’ve heard about people who are preserving the cerrado forest through a vanilla project using palmerum harvesting from the woods. Not sure where they sell to but it’s usually foodies, fancy restaurants, spice aficionados etc. but accessing the market is always the principal question. Either the supply chain is there, or you have enough to fill containers.

[Finca La Isla]

I have a strong doubt that, offered plenifolia and pompona, the customer will select pompona.  But I am considering doing about 10 plants of pompona just to see if there really is a niche market for this vanilla.
Looking online what I find is plenifolia from lots of different places and Tahiatian. Pompona from Peru. But since pompona occurs from Mexico to South America it’s surprising that nobody else seems to grow it.
Peter

[agroventuresperu]

I have a strong doubt that, offered plenifolia and pompona, the customer will select pompona.  But I am considering doing about 10 plants of pompona just to see if there really is a niche market for this vanilla.
Looking online what I find is plenifolia from lots of different places and Tahiatian. Pompona from Peru. But since pompona occurs from Mexico to South America it’s surprising that nobody else seems to grow it.
Peter

I don't have enough exposure to pods of either species to be able to offer an opinion on that matter. I have seen "Madagascar pompona" online. It is curious that Peru seems to be the shining example though of pompona in the marketplace. A lot of that production seems to be right here in my part of the country too. I'm planning to meet soon with one of the founders of AVAIPE, the Asociacion Vainilla Peru, organization. I can ask him questions. What would you like me to ask?

When you say ‘big time buyers’ I’m wondering who they are and how many tons of vanilla they’re buying. I have Pompona and I would plant it if I thought that it has a market. Is it actually that good?  You think I should start producing it commercially?  I don’t need a big buyer. If I have something really good I would have plenty of buyers at our farmers market.
Peter

I read a somewhat recent article that some NGOs helped inaugurate a huge pompona propagation center in Awajun (indigenous community here) territory, with a projected output of 70,000 vanilla plants per year. That's an insane amount of production, so I would guess there must be some buyers knocking on the door, otherwise why shoot for the moon? Things seem pretty established here too. Our area is a big rice production part of the country, and they have to cut all the Aguaje (Mauritia flexuosa) palms when clearcutting the wetlands, which is the main host species for V. pompona. Maybe the intention is to flood the global market with cheap pompona. Who knows. At least it would be good for the environment here.

I have no clue who the buyers are. A British guy who participated with me in my citizenship ceremony has his own (primarily pompona) vanilla business here, and created his own brand. He apparently buys from locals and sells internationally. I'd like to know what you know, Peter. How do you find non-farmers market buyers for your vanilla? You mentioned you like planifolia because it's a big global commodity unlike the other species, but even then, who are your buyers and how did you find them? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not talk about that publicly.

There’s definitely a market for wild vanilla. Accessing it is another matter. In Brazil I’ve heard about people who are preserving the cerrado forest through a vanilla project using palmerum harvesting from the woods. Not sure where they sell to but it’s usually foodies, fancy restaurants, spice aficionados etc. but accessing the market is always the principal question. Either the supply chain is there, or you have enough to fill containers.

It's unlikely that they're harvesting V. palmarum in that case. One of the main Vanilla botanists in Peru, stated that although it's in the Xanata section of the Xanata subgenus, palmarum (as well as bicolor) does not produce fragrant pods.

[booeyschewy]

It's unlikely that they're harvesting V. palmarum in that case. One of the main Vanilla botanists in Peru, stated that although it's in the Xanata section of the Xanata subgenus, palmarum (as well as bicolor) does not produce fragrant pods.

It does produce fragrant pods actually. I’ve both made extract and fermented it from pods off licuri palms in the semi arid dry forest. The research on wild species is next to none so I imagine most of what we see is speculative. The Brazilian government is working on it. V. Bahiana was reclassified as a variety of phaentha. https://www.embrapa.br/en/web/portal/recursos-geneticos-e-biotecnologia/busca-de-noticias/-/noticia/72142965/brasil-ganha-primeiro-banco-de-germoplasma-de-baunilhas?p_auth=3YFfPnhW

[Finca La Isla]

Interesting conversation.
So my buyers, whether at the farmers market or not are basically the same kind of client.  Individuals and small restaurant owners who are looking for something of good quality. My model avoids the wholesale buyer. I’d much rather have 50 clients than one or two.
What I can’t sell at the farmers market I sell here at the farm or take it out to sell here and there. Maybe on the street across from a supermarket, stopping anywhere that I can sell $20 of fruit. What I’m talking about is mostly fruit sales. I can harvest 1500kg of mangosteen per harvest and that’s when I need to hustle. Durian is a big deal for us. The selling needs to be well organized but it’s all done here locally.
We have people who come from other countries as well as our capitol to buy durian mainly.
I also sell black pepper, vanilla and chocolate bars. Normally I don’t go out with that stuff except to the farmers market. I sell about $200 of chocolate bars at the market and smaller quantities of pepper, dried fruit, vanilla and stuff.
Buyers of vanilla are a juice bar and a guy that makes a vanilla kombucha and people making cakes and stuff for sale or just for the family.
Peter

[agroventuresperu]

It's unlikely that they're harvesting V. palmarum in that case. One of the main Vanilla botanists in Peru, stated that although it's in the Xanata section of the Xanata subgenus, palmarum (as well as bicolor) does not produce fragrant pods.

It does produce fragrant pods actually. I’ve both made extract and fermented it from pods off licuri palms in the semi arid dry forest. The research on wild species is next to none so I imagine most of what we see is speculative. The Brazilian government is working on it. V. Bahiana was reclassified as a variety of phaentha. https://www.embrapa.br/en/web/portal/recursos-geneticos-e-biotecnologia/busca-de-noticias/-/noticia/72142965/brasil-ganha-primeiro-banco-de-germoplasma-de-baunilhas?p_auth=3YFfPnhW

I love Licuri nuts! Do you know if they can be shipped to Peru? I didn't realize you were in the Caatinga biome. I'm not too familiar with Brazilian geography.

Interesting conversation.
So my buyers, whether at the farmers market or not are basically the same kind of client.  Individuals and small restaurant owners who are looking for something of good quality. My model avoids the wholesale buyer. I’d much rather have 50 clients than one or two.
What I can’t sell at the farmers market I sell here at the farm or take it out to sell here and there. Maybe on the street across from a supermarket, stopping anywhere that I can sell $20 of fruit. What I’m talking about is mostly fruit sales. I can harvest 1500kg of mangosteen per harvest and that’s when I need to hustle. Durian is a big deal for us. The selling needs to be well organized but it’s all done here locally.
We have people who come from other countries as well as our capitol to buy durian mainly.
I also sell black pepper, vanilla and chocolate bars. Normally I don’t go out with that stuff except to the farmers market. I sell about $200 of chocolate bars at the market and smaller quantities of pepper, dried fruit, vanilla and stuff.
Buyers of vanilla are a juice bar and a guy that makes a vanilla kombucha and people making cakes and stuff for sale or just for the family.
Peter

I get it. I had wrongly assumed that you were selling into the international market. What I understand is that Costa Rica is a lot more posh than Peru (with the exception of the Cusco area). "Farmers market" sounds a lot like what they have in California. I guess they sort of have one of those here on Sundays, but it's still mostly resellers. I can't see there being much of a market here locally for Vanilla pods.
So do you have a farm stand at your farm, and you're on a well-travelled road? I'm guessing a lot of your clients are fellow expats. I still haven't even seen someone from the USA here in Rioja in the five years that I've been living here. Pretty much the holy grail in Peruvian agriculture is to export your product.

[Finca La Isla]

I do have a lot of expat clients but they aren’t all US people there’s lots of Europeans and other Latins. The other half are Costa Ricans. Costa Rica has a culture of farmers markets held in most towns large or small. There is some government support for these markets.
Vanilla is a high end product that probably wouldn’t sell well if there weren’t expats or rich ticos but there is still lots to sell the people that aren’t likely to buy vanilla. Ticos are serious buyers of fresh fruit, chocolate, dried fruit, plants, lots of stuff.
Peter

[booeyschewy]

I love Licuri nuts! Do you know if they can be shipped to Peru? I didn't realize you were in the Caatinga biome. I'm not too familiar with Brazilian geography.

Not sure but can’t see why not. If they’re not roasted they go bad fast and sometimes they have worms. It’s rare to find them in Brazil outside of the caatinga though. We don’t live there but Bahia is enormous and complex. Within hours of driving you can cross pluvial forest, caatinga and cerrado. We’re only a few hours from caatinga but Salvador has it virtually in its backyard.

[agroventuresperu]

I do have a lot of expat clients but they aren’t all US people there’s lots of Europeans and other Latins. The other half are Costa Ricans. Costa Rica has a culture of farmers markets held in most towns large or small. There is some government support for these markets.
Vanilla is a high end product that probably wouldn’t sell well if there weren’t expats or rich ticos but there is still lots to sell the people that aren’t likely to buy vanilla. Ticos are serious buyers of fresh fruit, chocolate, dried fruit, plants, lots of stuff.
Peter

Peter, what would you say if I grew tahitensis (i.e. Tahitian Vanilla) instead of planifolia? Is it a better fit in terms of climate? The terrain is foothills. We get a lot of clouds and we're slightly cooler than the low jungle. Not much cooler...it's a very slight difference. Do you know the pros and cons of each one? I was thinking about starting 100 cuttings of either mostly with the intention of exporting small batches of pods and extracts to the USA eventually. Those are the only two that are FDA approved for culinary use. I don't really want to spread myself too thin by growing a bunch of different Vanillas. I'm already doing two native Vanilla species, and I just feel planifolia AND tahitensis would be a little bit too much to keep track of.

I know there are some labs and vendors that have them here. Not sure of prices yet. But I'd like to hear your input before putting an order together.

[Finca La Isla]

Hi, I don’t really know anything about Tahaitensis.  I’ve never heard of anyone growing it here.  It has a good reputation internationally. But I’m wondering if it’s best for you as it is grown in the lowlands.  Still, I don’t see anything wrong with trying it. Everything is a bit of an experiment and you see what works.
Suerte!

[agroventuresperu]

Hi, I don’t really know anything about Tahaitensis.  I’ve never heard of anyone growing it here.  It has a good reputation internationally. But I’m wondering if it’s best for you as it is grown in the lowlands.  Still, I don’t see anything wrong with trying it. Everything is a bit of an experiment and you see what works.
Suerte!

Thanks. We went ahead and ordered 100 cuttings of planifolia. Added an extra piece of shade cloth to a number of the pompona cuttings we planted last month, because they have a lot of sun damage and a couple unfortunately died already. I made the mistake of thinning out a lot of our Inga trees, cutting the majority at shoulder height, in the area about a month prior to planting the pompona. So, the ones planted under those pruned trees, well I guess it wasn't enough to cover them with only one piece of shade cloth. The portion of stem that faces the sky has that characteristic bleaching, and I guess that opens them up to some sort of infection, as the stem will turn black and wither. We also had about a two week dry spell starting towards the end of January, which is just when you need consistent rain to get them off to a good start. We had to get out there and fertigate them and also apply rooting hormone with a backpack sprayer, and ended up having to spend a lot more time on that task than we had anticipated just to keep them from from drying out. The orientation of the area is probably also bad (west facing slope). The ones under specimen fruit trees (Annonas and avocados) will probably be OK.

We also ordered five cuttings of Vanilla cristagalli. In El Genero Vanilla en el Peru, the author states that the fruit "produce un fuerte olor a vainillina" and even includes a diagnostic note: "Fruto fuertemente aromatico". So it should be an interesting one to try out. Normally if it's an aromatic species like planifolia he'll just mention that the fruit is aromatic, but with cristagalli he added the extra emphasis, so I'll be curious to see what the fruit turns out to be like. The seller also gifted us a couple cuttings of odorata.

[agroventuresperu]

I have a strong doubt that, offered plenifolia and pompona, the customer will select pompona.  But I am considering doing about 10 plants of pompona just to see if there really is a niche market for this vanilla.
Looking online what I find is plenifolia from lots of different places and Tahiatian. Pompona from Peru. But since pompona occurs from Mexico to South America it’s surprising that nobody else seems to grow it.
Peter

My wife received some pompona (both pods and a sample of extract) from a local Vanilla pompona farm here. They are interested in having her make soaps for them using their vanilla. Well, I have to say the aroma is definitely lackluster, dull, and not even particularly pleasant either. I'm concerned about wasting time growing this. Maybe they just don't know how to cure properly? They should, it's a pretty well established farm, and they even do tours. I guess we'll have to order some pods from other growers to compare. I just couldn't see myself standing behind a product like that. I'd be embarassed. It doesn't even smell at all like vanilla. My wife is now in the awkward position of having to produce some soap samples for them with their lackluster raw material. She might have to add a dash of store bought vanilla extract just so it actually has a decent fragrance. WTF

[agroventuresperu]

The extract basically just smells like the rum or aguardiente alcohol they used to make it with no other vanilla smell. They must be doing something wrong, otherwise this pompona hoopla is just a big joke.

[Finca La Isla]

Yeah, I would seek out some other producers pompona, see if you can find something good that you would be comfortable selling. Just because those guys do tours doesn’t mean anything. There’s lots of people here in CR as well that do a terrible job.
But , sure you want to be selling a product that sells itself because of the quality not due to some hype.
What would they say if your wife took the vanilla back and said it’s not good enough for her soap?
Peter

[booeyschewy]

I’ve read extracts can take up to a year to cure. I’m monitoring some wild vanillas I made into extracts. The scent improves very slowly. After 6mo or so it’s prett good but keeps increasing.

[Finca La Isla]

How are you making those extracts?
We soak chopped up vanilla in 60% alcohol for about six weeks, then strain it.  Are you talking about leaving the vanilla pieces in alcohol for 6 months or what are you doing?
We use 100 grams of vanilla per liter so it’s very expensive to make.  After we strain the vanilla out we temper the alcohol down to 40%.
I’d be interested to hear the details of your process.
Thanks, Peter

[booeyschewy]

We must be doing it wrong! We’re using whole pods

[Finca La Isla]

If you make a longitudinal cut down the middle from one end to the other and then cross cut about every ¼” it will speed up the extraction process.
Peter