eugenia < garcinia ?

[tru]

Here's why TFF works.
Of all websites that I could compare it to, I figure people think reddit immediately; but really its like twitter, except you follow everyone by default. We talk about what's popular NOW.
Whatever that top thread is, we're gonna click on it.

At heart of it, you want to run 'ads' and sway opinions, so eventually you'll see more eugenia content. And I get that. really I do.
But instead of changing the system, couldn't you just work within it and get exactly what you want, instead of placing value on opinions?

you know what happens when I see an ad on twitter? reddit? etc?
I scroll right past it 🤣

Sell me on Eugenia fruits, and if you sell me you'll sell others. Ask questions. Plant seeds within the forum's soil and watch them grow. Maybe too hippy of a take but if you let the analogy work, I think it works quite well.

The wealth of knowledge on this forum is like the deep sea. Cast a question with an intriguing of enough bait, and you may surprise yourself with what bites. You may have a frenzy!
But the question needs to be intriguing, and more importantly it needs to come from the right place. Catch more flies with sugar... something like that.

just my two cents: Epiphyte, whiteout the prices of all these plants from your mind. Love the plants for what they are, not what they are backed by fiscally. Spread that love, and you'll get exactly what you want

[Epiphyte]

if democracy was used to determine the king of tropical fruit then i'm sure that mango would kick durian's butt.  but if donations were used to determine the king of tropical fruit, then i wouldn't be as confident that durian would be defeated by mango.  maybe team durian would be willing to make a bigger sacrifice than team mango.

Ok, got it, oligarchy.

let's say that i spend $5,000 on a billboard for this forum.  oligarchy?

[Epiphyte]

Democracy or dictatorship doesn't have to follow from my premise. That alone does not negate anything I've said. We're also not running a country. It's own new thing could be said which sounds a lot better than oligarchy (what donations are). Also the markets opposite is central planning, not democracy or dictatorship.

is it useful to reveal love?  if so, which system is best at revealing love?

With donations a rich person who only likes fruit will have more influence than a poor person who loves them, it goes both ways. Y doesn't bias towards fruit lovers, there is no logic to indicate that. It's logically fallacious to say that donations indicate love as I've shown. There's a reason why demand or price =/= value. The botanical garden analogy is flawed. Are botanical gardens mainly for profit or pleasure? Do botanical gardens serve to cater only to the rich or to the general public? Even then, it's not like botanical gardens build sections in response to public demand since they plan out sections well beforehand.

ever been to the huntington conservatory?  here are some other donors to the huntington.  the larger the donation, the more willing the huntington is to let you decide how the money is used.

is the huntington an oligarchy?  would we be better off if the huntington didn't give donors the opportunity to earmark their donations?

[Epiphyte]

just my two cents: Epiphyte, whiteout the prices of all these plants from your mind. Love the plants for what they are, not what they are backed by fiscally. Spread that love, and you'll get exactly what you want

my friend hak told me to buy a couple yangmeis for him in the latest group order, which i did.  if i go to japan, should i whiteout hak's yangmei preferences from my mind?  if i did, then i wouldn't collect any seeds for him.

if hak went to mexico, would i want him to whiteout my garcinia preferences from his mind?  noooooooo...

i should be considerate of hak's plant preferences because i'd greatly appreciate it if he was considerate of my plant preferences.

i guess that's the golden rule.

you go on a hike and happen to stumble upon a 20 pound gold nugget.  what do you do?  of course you make every effort to carry it back with you.  society would greatly reward you for being so considerate of its preferences.

if i tell you that the members of this forum should be considerate of each other's plant preferences, i doubt that you'd disagree.  but it's a different story if i suggest using donations to aggregate all our plant preferences.  as if reading the threads gives us an adequately accurate estimate of all our preferences.  sadly that isn't how the world works. 

first we use our donations to clarify and quantify our plant preferences and then, and only then, will our behavior be maximally beneficial to each other.

[Okvid]

All of those bios about the highest donors shows that the donors don't control what their donations do. They donate because they love what the observatory is doing as a whole, not that they rank certain sections as better in order to show their love. The only thing remotely close is the orchid donation, even then the orchid is extremely rare. All you have shown is that donors love what the huntington conservatory does.

Also why must we play a game of cat and mouse to see who is most willing to donate to reveal love. We could just create a thread asking what fruit do you love most and want more discussion?  Behavior that is maximally beneficial to each is other is based on what is in a relatable to the individual.

If durian is most donated for, this helps very few people. It is only maximally beneficial to those who are willing and can grow durian. Overall, this is not very beneficial for the whole. What I can tell you is that what is maximally beneficial is discussing topics that both Floridians and Californians can grow since they are the biggest part of the forum. Through purely democratic means, mangoes have shown up to be the most popular thread. We already have found what people love the most, it's mangoes. There is a wealth of information on it in the forum, and most people on the forum can grow it (Florida, California, Hawaii, bunch of other tropical countries).

Huntington park isn't an oligarchy, it's a independent non-profit organization.

[Epiphyte]

All of those bios about the highest donors shows that the donors don't control what their donations do.

on the donate page you're given the option to designate how your donation is used.

They donate because they love what the observatory is doing as a whole, not that they rank certain sections as better in order to show their love. The only thing remotely close is the orchid donation, even then the orchid is extremely rare. All you have shown is that donors love what the huntington conservatory does.

the huntington does randomly different things such as restoring renaissance paintings and tissue culturing cactus.  nobody equally loves everything that the huntington does.  if it wasn't for the option to designate donations, there would be an even bigger disparity between what the huntington does and what people truly want it to do. 

If durian is most donated for, this helps very few people. It is only maximally beneficial to those who are willing and can grow durian. Overall, this is not very beneficial for the whole. What I can tell you is that what is maximally beneficial is discussing topics that both Floridians and Californians can grow since they are the biggest part of the forum. Through purely democratic means, mangoes have shown up to be the most popular thread. We already have found what people love the most, it's mangoes. There is a wealth of information on it in the forum, and most people on the forum can grow it (Florida, California, Hawaii, bunch of other tropical countries).

you say that people love mangoes the most, but would they receive the most donations?  or would durians?

if there's no difference between what we say and do, ie mango is the most popular topic and the most donated for topic, then the donation ranking functions as an easy and quick way for visitors and new members to learn that mango truly is the king.  no need to spend lots of time browsing or searching to learn the truth of our preferences.

but if there is a difference between our words and actions, ie mango is the most popular topic but durian is the most donated for topic, then we can each decide for ourselves whether people's words or actions are more trustworthy.

[tru]

bro .. . 
I never said to forget your preferences or your friends' preferences. I suggested you share them openly, without putting a monetary price on them.
you misinterpret my words and others to suit your points, but really it sounds so contrarian

As much as you want the parallels to work to conservatories, this is just a big group message. If you pay 5,000 for a separate thread, excuse me, donate 5,000; what's to stop me from paying the same because I really like bananas, and some people really like pouteria, some are big passiflora collectors, some people just grow mangoes and thats it, guess we gotta make a coconut thread, and how could I forget garcinias .. . .. . . .. . . .

just because you can assign a value to a eugenia group, doesn't mean others will come. We have a small population as is, I can't imagine anything other than a less active main discussion and less accessible information

Hell bro, if you ask me we could do away with the citrus group and just have those questions here but that's just me. How much do I pay for that? If I donate enough, that'll mean my opinion has merit right?

Not to say that your idea is the same as my suggestion, moreso assigning a value to something like that can get slippery

[K-Rimes]

if democracy was used to determine the king of tropical fruit then i'm sure that mango would kick durian's butt.  but if donations were used to determine the king of tropical fruit, then i wouldn't be as confident that durian would be defeated by mango.  maybe team durian would be willing to make a bigger sacrifice than team mango.

Ok, got it, oligarchy.

let's say that i spend $5,000 on a billboard for this forum.  oligarchy?

An advertisement or billboard is not the same as controlling the content visibility of the forum via financial means. You can call it a "donation" but it's actually more like a payment for visibility. Again, it just gets into a pissing match of who has more money to blow and won't actually improve the quality of the CONTENT which I think is what you're glossing over. Great content can only come from those who have deep experience. Say we had thousands of newbies on here just blasting out comments and interacting but it was all trash information... Is that better? I don't think so at all.

first we use our donations to clarify and quantify our plant preferences and then, and only then, will our behavior be maximally beneficial to each other.

Good lord, I've never seen someone so obsessed with money as a medium for making choices in life.

Voting should be free, fair, easy to access and unbiased. Making it pay for play does NOT improve the quality of your choice!

Re: earmarking donations to an actual place like Huntington: they are doing physical things (costs money to maintain or build), they have physical space (costs money to keep), and a broad spectrum of offerings which you may or may not be into (costs money to develop). A forum is not the same thing where its purpose is to facilitate discussion and storage of information, not actually be built brick by brick, plant by plant, or so on. While forums do cost money, and I think the devs and mods should earn some token amount of money to do the valuable work they are doing, I don't think the quality of this site would improve with tens of thousands of dollars (no offence mods!). The quality is in the people and the experiences they've had, and the information they hold.

[Epiphyte]

bro .. . 
I never said to forget your preferences or your friends' preferences. I suggested you share them openly, without putting a monetary price on them.
you misinterpret my words and others to suit your points, but really it sounds so contrarian

i apologize for sounding contrarian.  that is not my intent.  i really do not deliberately misinterpret so please assume good faith.

on the one hand, i could simply link you to dense scholarly papers on the topic of preference intensity, preference revelation, willingness to pay and so on.  or on the other hand i could exert 100% of my mental energy to try and patiently make these relevant concepts as accessible as possible.  i'll continue to strain my brain.

i'd give my left nut to have a fruiting size kwai muk tree.  really?  sacrifice is the most meaningful and trustworthy way to quantify preference intensity.  in the bible, god loved the world so much that he was willing to sacrifice his only son to save it.  the story is powerful, as opposed to god loving the world so much that he was willing to click "thumbs up" to save it.

let's say that i'm planning a trip to africa.  you ask me to bring you back seeds of an ultra rare fruit, but getting the seeds would be the modern equivalent of going into the heart of darkness.  the tree is on top of the highest mountain in the most war torn country.  does your preference intensity matter?  yes, very yes.  it's certainly not worth it for me to risk my life to try to get you seeds of some fruit that you're only mildly curious about.

my behavior should be informed by your preference intensity, and k-rimes' preference intensity, and okvid's preference intensity, and everyone else's preference intensity.  it's a lot of info, hence the need to combine everyone's preference intensity via donations into one single list.

just because you can assign a value to a eugenia group, doesn't mean others will come. We have a small population as is, I can't imagine anything other than a less active main discussion and less accessible information

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?action=unread.  that link shows you all the active unread threads on this forum, even those in the citrus category.  so adding more categories won't make any threads less accessible.

assigning a social value to a eugenia category would certainly influence our behavior.  just like assigning a social value to gold influences our behavior.

if eugenia turns out to be the most socially valuable category then a ton more people will follow my friend kelly.  but if eugenia turns out to be the least socially valuable category, then kelly will weep when he sees the true size of the obstacle.  after his tears dry, he will eat a bunch of eugenia fruits which will provide him with all the energy he needs to rise to the challenge.  he will produce more eugenia videos and eugenia will slowly but steadily rise up the ranks.

Hell bro, if you ask me we could do away with the citrus group and just have those questions here but that's just me. How much do I pay for that? If I donate enough, that'll mean my opinion has merit right?

the more you donate to this forum, the more influence you should have on it.

[Epiphyte]

An advertisement or billboard is not the same as controlling the content visibility of the forum via financial means. You can call it a "donation" but it's actually more like a payment for visibility. Again, it just gets into a pissing match of who has more money to blow and won't actually improve the quality of the CONTENT which I think is what you're glossing over. Great content can only come from those who have deep experience. Say we had thousands of newbies on here just blasting out comments and interacting but it was all trash information... Is that better? I don't think so at all.

thousands and thousands of newbies on facebook, instagram and youtube click "thumbs up" to determine content visibility.  the other day my friend showed me a video on facebook of a tree with purple fruit growing directly on the trunk.  at 1st glance i thought it was jabuticaba, but on closer inspection i realized that the fruits were mangosteens.  i second guessed myself and had to google whether mangosteen was actually cauliflorous.

is there no other way the world may live?

actually there is. when a high quality flower patch is discovered by a foraging bee she flies back to the hive in order to recruit other bees.  the way she signals her valuable discovery is by dancing intensely.  her willingness to sacrifice so many of her precious calories proves that her discovery is worthy of the other bees' attention.

more than 20 years ago i was treking through the panamanian jungle with a buddy.  we decided to take a quick water break.  all of a sudden he started dancing crazy.  unfortunately it wasn't because he spotted a garcinia tree loaded with fruit.  it was because he was standing on a nest of bullet ants. 

for this forum, crazy dancing isn't really the best way to direct each other's attention.  neither is democracy because we risk being flooded with stupid content.  therefore, donations.  we will all have the opportunity to sacrifice our precious dollars to direct each other's attention to the most valuable fruit topics.

Good lord, I've never seen someone so obsessed with money as a medium for making choices in life.

it's certainly possible that i'm overestimating the usefulness of money as a means of communication.  the proof is in the pudding.

Voting should be free, fair, easy to access and unbiased. Making it pay for play does NOT improve the quality of your choice!

how many of the olympic fruits have you not tried?  i haven't tried 3... abiu, star apple, cacao.  so perhaps my input was 10% ignorant.  how does my ignorance percentage compare to the forum average?  how does my ignorance percentage compare to the national average?

with democracy, the more participants, the dumber the results.  with donations it's the opposite. 

Re: earmarking donations to an actual place like Huntington: they are doing physical things (costs money to maintain or build), they have physical space (costs money to keep), and a broad spectrum of offerings which you may or may not be into (costs money to develop). A forum is not the same thing where its purpose is to facilitate discussion and storage of information, not actually be built brick by brick, plant by plant, or so on. While forums do cost money, and I think the devs and mods should earn some token amount of money to do the valuable work they are doing, I don't think the quality of this site would improve with tens of thousands of dollars (no offence mods!). The quality is in the people and the experiences they've had, and the information they hold.

whether we're talking about the huntington, a beehive or this forum, what matters is how beneficially we direct each other's attention.

one time i visited the garden of loran whitelock.  it was quite incredible with lots of cycads of course, staghorn ferns and orchids.  but i don't remember seeing any fruit trees.  he donated his cycad collection to the huntington.

why didn't loran have any fruit trees?  maybe he didn't like fruit?  or perhaps nobody pointed him in the right direction?

my plant friend mimi is an elementary school teacher.  with the help of her students she's been turning her school into a botanical garden.  a few years ago i donated a couple of my lemon guava volunteers and the kids have been enjoying the fruit. 

x = donating guavas to a school
y = earmarking a donation to guavas

i'm sure you're fine with x, but you don't seem fine with y.  but in both cases personal sacrifice is used to direct attention to guavas... in order to save the little lorans of the world from the clutches of evil cycads. 

[NateTheGreat]

for this forum, crazy dancing isn't really the best way to direct each other's attention.  neither is democracy because we risk being flooded with stupid content.

You make a good point!

[fliptop]

Epiphyte, above you wrote: the more you donate to this forum, the more influence you should have on it.

Did you donate during this year's fundraiser? Thanks!

[Epiphyte]

Epiphyte, above you wrote: the more you donate to this forum, the more influence you should have on it.

Did you donate during this year's fundraiser? Thanks!

no, i did not.  are there any perks?  i assumed that donating to this forum would not provide any influence over it. 

[Okvid]

You can designate donations, but does the Huntington take that in account to build more of the section? They could just use the donations to cover what was going to cost for maintenance and spare up some funds for different parts. (Like the Huntington is really going to ignore the maintenance of one section just because it gets less donations)

Who cares whether mangoes or durian gets the most donations? Again, if durian gets more donation, this doesn't really help anybody since most people can't grow durian. If you're really about trying to help the most people, then you would advocate for the fruits that most of the demographic benefits from. It'd more beneficial for somebody to create a sticky that points newbies in the direction of what they can grow in their area, and to tell them to actually eat the tropical fruit before they try to grow it (How can you know your preference if you've actually never tried the fruit?)

[Epiphyte]

You can designate donations, but does the Huntington take that in account to build more of the section? They could just use the donations to cover what was going to cost for maintenance and spare up some funds for different parts. (Like the Huntington is really going to ignore the maintenance of one section just because it gets less donations)

let's say that you donate $100 to the huntington's tropical fruit section.  you wouldn't mind if the huntington diverts 50% of your donation to the cycad section?

Who cares whether mangoes or durian gets the most donations?

who cares whether cycads or tropical fruit trees get the most donations?  wouldn't it seem really wrong if tropical fruit trees get all the donations but the huntington only grows cycads?  what exactly would be the point of the huntington? 

we don't exist for organizations, organizations exist for us.

Again, if durian gets more donation, this doesn't really help anybody since most people can't grow durian. If you're really about trying to help the most people, then you would advocate for the fruits that most of the demographic benefits from. It'd more beneficial for somebody to create a sticky that points newbies in the direction of what they can grow in their area, and to tell them to actually eat the tropical fruit before they try to grow it (How can you know your preference if you've actually never tried the fruit?)

coincidentally when i visited hapa joe i did buy a couple sprouted durian seeds from him.  if you had been with me i'm guessing that you would have tried to talk me out of buying them?  but i doubt you would have tried to somehow prevent me from buying them.

if you did somehow have full control over my spending decisions then i'd essentially be your slave.  i'm sure you think slavery is wrong, but you don't know the best argument against slavery.

if i'm your slave then i can only bark up the trees that you perceive to be right.  in other words, i can only plant the trees that you perceive to be right.  if i want to plant a durian tree, but you think it's the wrong tree, then i wouldn't have the option to plant it. 

here are some important facts...

fact #1: what you think is the wrong tree might actually be the right tree, therefore...
fact #2: you benefit from my freedom to bark up the wrong trees
fact #3: you benefit from my freedom to buy the wrong trees
fact #4: you benefit from my freedom to plant the wrong trees
fact #5: you would benefit from my freedom to promote the wrong trees

[Okvid]

That's not what I am saying. Let's say 100 dollars is donated to the Huntington for cycads and the upkeep cost is 100, the Huntington will already have revenue from ticket sales to cover the cycads. Since the 100 dollars donate covers the upkeep, the Huntington can divert the original revenue funds meant for upkeep into different areas or for shortfall in revenue that can't cover all maintenance.

I don't care what the Huntington does, I care about TFF. Mangoes are more accessible to grow than Durian. I never said that durian should be blacked over in TFF, making all durian discussion illegal under forum laws.
Fact 1#: I never said you can't try to grow Durian, go ahead it's your time that you're wasting.
Fact 2#: Most people on the forum live in Florida or California, places that cannot grow Durian.

You go on about how we need to know about what people love and the only way we know love is because of what people donate. That through knowing love we would be better off with this information, and that the other ways like democracy produce inefficient systems through waste of time. I have shown that your premise is flawed because donations don't appeal to the majority who might maximize the benefit for the most people.

There's a reason why jaboticaba45 sold his durian seedlings, he can't grow it. As he stated, it's going to somebody in Puerto Rico, a place that can grow durian. Sure there are plenty of times where people benefit from the mistakes of others. But their are times when painfully obvious mistakes are painfully obvious and all that occurs is wasted time and resources.

Also, when did I ever bring up slavery? You are literally bringing up irrelevant topics for no apparent reasons. Wait, lemme guess the best argument against slavery is that people donated against it?

[Epiphyte]

okvid, so if you donate $100 for tropical fruit trees at the huntington, it's for maintenance rather than expansion?  if so, then how should the huntington go about determining the optimal size of the tropical fruit section?

did you know that the huntington has a fruiting jackfruit tree in their conservatory?  it's sad because it gives the impression that jackfruits can't grow outside here.

x = forum members spending their time promoting durians, via discussion on this forum
y = forum members spending their money promoting durians, via donations to this forum

you're cool with x but not y.  the reason that you're not cool with y is because the majority of forum members can't grow durians. 

something is missing. 

right now the citrus category is the 2nd category on the tff homepage.  i never click on it.  would i click on it if it was the top category?  not if its placement was arbitrarily determined.  but if its placement at the top was determined by donations then i might click on it.  i am a fan of pomelos.

right now it's easy for the majority of members to ignore durian discussion?  but it wouldn't be easy for the majority of members to ignore durian donations?

you've said repeatedly that the majority of members here live in subtropical areas, but have you ever said that there should be a subtropical category?  right now there's a tropical category and a temperate category, but there isn't a subtropical category.

whoever started this forum didn't name it the subtropical fruit forum, they named it the tropical fruit forum.  maybe the founder wanted to talk about durians, rambutans and all the other fruit that we can't grow here in california?

my favorite example of this is the mountain orchids website... https://www.mountainorchids.com/

evidently he initially planned on primarily selling orchids.  but i guess he also offered a few begonias for sale, and people must have bought more and more of them, because right now that's pretty much all he sells.

what every organization does, whether it's mountain orchids, or the huntington or the tropical fruit forum, should be determined by demand.  to be clear, demand is not people clicking "thumbs up".  it is people reaching into their own pockets and spending their money.

[K-Rimes]

I would wager that the most informed, experienced, and successful durian growers on the planet are from impoverished countries that couldn't afford a donation on this forum, much less a computer or smart phone to post from. By making forum contribution or participation monetarily connected, you put a final nail in the coffin for that person potentially posting here that is, if durian information is really what you're after... Or is it control that you seek?

Your entire premise of ranking things by donation, quite honestly, just shows your laziness. You can't be bothered to scroll down to the citrus forum and need it to be top center to visit it? You can't bother to use the search function to reach the specific information you're looking for?

Books at the library are not ranked by donation - you just go and find the title or author you're looking for and then borrow it. I would be absolutely PISSED if the library were organized by donations deciding what I should read rather than by category then alphabetically by title or author. What a mess! Your entire premise is about controlling the access of information via money. You don't think this system will be easily corrupted? 

I could care less if durian information was blasted at me 24/7 and prioritized on this forum. I can't grow it. All the prioritization of information about it would probably just annoy me to the point I'd stop using the forum altogether.

[fruitmonger]

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[Epiphyte]

k-rimes, perhaps i should clarify.  so far i've only suggested that donations be used for 2 things...

1. determining the creation of categories
2. determining the order of categories

i have never suggested that anyone should have to pay to post.  if members were willing to donate for a durian category then i fail to see how this would harm poor durian farmers.

regarding digging... i've done an incredible amount of it on the internet.  want proof?  voila...

Genetics of Climatic Races of Potentilla glandulosa

this paper provides some evidence that if you cross a warm growing plant with a cool growing plant then at least some of the offspring will grow in warm to cool temps.  these hybrids would be able to grow year around in our socal gardens.  is this true of atemoya?  it's definitely a cross between the warmer growing annona squamosa and the cooler growing annona cherimola, but i'm not quite sure if any of the available atemoyas were the offspring with the widest range of growing temps.

when i was digging and digging around the topic of hybridization, i really wasn't trying to find this paper.  i didn't even know that it existed.  but i got lucky and struck gold.

admittedly, just because i think it's gold doesn't necessarily mean it truly is gold.  this is why valuation should always be a group process that involves individual sacrifice.

i donate $10 for a socal category.  you donate $15 dollars.  kelly donates $55 dollars.  hapa joe donates $40 dollars.  this is the only effective method to discover the social value of the socal category.

regarding a library, just like with scholarly papers, it takes way too much digging to find treasure.  the color of a book's cover should reflect its social value.  this would allow us to effectively judge books by their covers.  except it wouldn't be very practical because social value is never a static thing.  the book covers would constantly have to be changed as more people read and valuated them. 

the moral of the story is that, nobody benefits from treasure being buried.

[pagnr]

i donate $10 for a socal category.  you donate $15 dollars.  kelly donates $55 dollars.  hapa joe donates $40 dollars.  this is the only effective method to discover the social value of the socal category.


In Australia and I am sure everywhere else we have a problem of set fines not being relevant to income.
If a parking fine is $ 50, a wealthy person may keep the park space and pay the fine, a less well off gets a higher burden for the same fine.
Sāme for speeding fines, a $200 speeding fine is noe equivalent across society ( but now demerit points are added so you can't accumulate fines and pay your way out without some punishment.)
My point is that $1 is not equal across the board.
If a child donates $10 of their birthday or chore money, that has higher impact value than a CEO donating $1000 ( and tax deducting too ).
That is why we also have 1 person 1 vote, not votes based on tax income or property rates bills, which has been proposed.

Just my two cents worth.......

[Epiphyte]

My point is that $1 is not equal across the board.

you're 100% correct.  this has been understood since biblical times... lesson of the widow's mite

using donations to determine fruit categories would be heavily weighted to wealthier members.  but this is a good thing.

did you participate in the TROPICAL FRUIT FORUM OLYMPICS! - 2023?

in the pineapple vs durian match, which will win?  i'm not sure about within this forum, but if you asked random people on the street then pineapple would definitely win.  right?  this is simply because the vast majority of people have not tried durian.

if donations were used instead, then the more passionate team durian is, the greater the chances that they would beat team pineapple.

democracy tells us how popular durian IS

donations would tell us how popular durian SHOULD BE

we should want to put the best of the least known fruits on the tallest pedestal.

if you're going to stand on a soapbox on a street corner with a megaphone then please don't be preaching about pineapples.  preach about durians, eugenias, garcinias, jabuticabas and all of the other tasty fruits that the majority of people have never even heard of.

[tru]

I've went up and down this page so many times that the starfruit leaves would be proud .. look

to put it bluntly; you are not nearly as convincing as you think you are being, and this thread in itself is a shining example of why people that have money to throw around end up throwing it in the wrong places

It's like building the beginning of a 16-lane super highway, to a town that only has 100 people. Logistically it just doesn't make sense yet. If we had the population to warrant it, I'd be wholly on your side, and you wouldn't even have to use donations to convince me either!

But even then all of these parallels just convolute the whole problem. They aren't 1:1 scale of why I'd have an issue with splitting the forum up.

Since we seem to be getting such a kick out of quotes on this thread,
"Just because you can, does not mean you should" - me, right now

I ask everyone else, can we just collectively agree to let this thread die

[Okvid]

The Huntington doesn't need to determine the optimal size for the fruit tree section since it was already planned out. Our donations do not affect the planning of sections at Huntington park. They are not a business, but a non-profit so they don't need to determine the most optimal section sizing. I know huntington has a jackfruit tree, I saw it with fruit when the corpse flower was at the huntington in june.

I'm cool with X because you said that donations would be most socially beneficial. Taking your goal, I clearly explained how donations aren't the most socially beneficial path for the forum.

As someone said before, the citrus forum was made in response to the closing of a different forum. I'm guessing the citrus and temperate sections are for people who want to talk to other people from the site (useful as site members usually share geographic regions) on those subjects because there are different forums for those purposes. I don't very much care for a subtropical section since I think it will just dilute discussion.

Let's say that the original intent of the forum by the owner was to talk about tropical fruit specifically in Florida as I think this forum was created with the intent of Floridians to use. Floridians generally can't grow ultra tropicals (there are a few exceptions) . Plus if the owner truly intended for only discussion on durian, mangosteen, and other very tropical fruits, then we wouldn't have TFF as it is now.

You have to stop confounding market price signals with things that have nothing to do with markets. The reason why economies need prices is to give information to firms on whether to enter a market or not, and produce a good or not. This is basic microeconomics. Companies don't use price signals to determine love, they use it to determine profits.

[fliptop]

tru, what's with you? Epiphyte has done a bang up job convincing everyone here we need to switch to a donation system. Heck, ever since Epiphyte wrote: "a donation system, on the other hand, would be like public tug of war.  the harder you pulled for canarium, the more curious i'd be about it," I've been at the ready to donate. I just don't know who to send my hard-earned money to to show my love? If his embedded links (ones that make our occasional spammers weep with envy) and name dropping haven't convinced you, I'm afraid nothing will.

Epiphyte, ignore the haters. Keep up the good fight. One day all will see and understand. (I'll admit, I thought this thread was going to die a couple days ago. You saved the day by presenting a theoretical charge that Okvid was trying to be your slave master. Brilliant move that allowed you to pontificate further!) Continue trying to enlighten the nonbelievers! KEEP THIS THREAD ALIVE!!!