Author Topic: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help  (Read 1144 times)

sc4001992

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How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« on: April 20, 2025, 03:07:57 PM »
Ok, I would like to ask you citrus breeder's some questions on the process to create a cross-pollinated fruit. I have a lot of different citrus varieties but have never tried to cross them.

So, a few years back (2022) I grafted the largest citrus I have called the Banpeiyu with the smallest fruiting finger lime rootstock (Australian Green Finger lime). I think that now my grafted Banpeiyu has grown and flowering I want to try the cross pollination.

I see that both the Australian Lime and Banpeiyu have flowers so it should be ready. Can you tell me the best method to cross pollenate these two.

I want the Banpeiyu to hold the fruit (mother) since the scion is from my fruiting tree which has had fruits about 5 lbs each, should be 10 lbs but never seem it that big yet.

Here's some photos, please give me directions on how I go about the cross pollination.
Thanks in advance.





« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 12:46:52 PM by sc4001992 »

Ilya11

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2025, 04:53:59 PM »
Something similar has been already done.
link
Best regards,
                       Ilya

sc4001992

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2025, 05:16:52 PM »
Ok, good ref, thank you. I see it has been over 20 years now, do you know if the hybrid grew into a fruiting tree by now?
Who was the original person who tried this?

Since I have many large pomelo trees that are flowering now, I might try the finger lime pollen on all of them and see which ones have successful healthy fruits.

From what I read, it sounds like he did not have a successful cross and the plants are dead or didn't make new fruits to see what it looks like. My cross will fruit so in 10 yrs you can see the shape of this crossed fruits (haha).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 12:44:04 PM by sc4001992 »

Galatians522

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2025, 07:35:19 PM »
Kaz, I have not done a citrus cross specifically, but typically you want to emasculate the flower in the popcorn stage (where the flower is about to open but isn't open yet) by removing the anthers with a tweezer. Then, bag the flowers and apply the pollen from you chose (male) flower when it starts shedding pollen. You should be able to pick the flowers off your chosen male and use the flower to gently brush pollen on the stigma of your female (the little knob in the middle of the flower). Clipping the stigma from the male flower might make this easier if it sticks out past the pollen shedding anthers. You should probably pollinate multiple times to make sure the female flower was receptive when you applied the pollen. If you have a monoembryonic variety in the cross that should be the female.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2025, 07:37:22 PM by Galatians522 »

sc4001992

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2025, 09:33:08 PM »
Ok, thanks Sam, I read similar procedure on this forum. I will try it this week and next. Hope it works.

Ilya11

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2025, 02:50:20 AM »
it was done by Mike (citrange), he is a member here.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

BorisR

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2025, 04:55:45 AM »
Kaz, you haven't chosen the easiest combination to cross. The fact is that usually the length of the pollen tube, which grows from a speck of dust and penetrates into the pistil to the egg, is approximately equal to the length of the pistil. Species with small flowers grow short pollen tubes, and vice versa. Therefore, it is very unlikely that pollen from finger lime will be able to fully germinate inside the pistil of Banpeyu. You will be more successful if you pollinate finger lime with Banpeyu pollen.

I have read that the solution to this problem is to cut off half of the pistil and apply pollen to the slice, but I have never tried this myself.

sc4001992

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2025, 02:38:59 PM »
Boris,

Ok, good info, I did read that as well about opening up for access.

Maybe I should try both, one for Banpeiyu fruit and another one on my Finger lime fruit. I have enough trees I can do many combinations of citrus variety as well.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 12:44:32 PM by sc4001992 »

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2025, 11:45:55 AM »
I'm going to copy the answer I gave in another topic: "...I've already achieved several crosses, but only two, in my 6 years of projects, have borne fruit and are now maturing. You can do short-term and long-term projects. In my experience, rampurg, chinotto, etrog, and Meiwa kumquats mature and flower (if they are healthy and grown in the ground) in 4 years. The rest take 7 to 10. So I would start with those. That way, you'll be happy over the years and excited to see the others.

Second tip: the first year, plant Poncirus or a rootstock resistant to your climate in the ground; if it's vigorous, all the better! This is so that when you take out a small shoot, you have somewhere to graft to slow down the development. I used an old tree, removed the top, and added a branch from a Maxima x Mandarin seedling. It grew enormously and made progress in about 4 years. Also, many of the roots  are bad (like those of the kumquat).

 Third: Eliminate floral competition. This means the plant produces more flowers than fruit, so if you remove all the self-pollinated flowers and any new shoots that come out, you'll only be leaving the ones you pollinated yourself. This ensures that only the cross-pollinated flower grows. If they all fall off in the first cycle, don't worry; the plant still has enough hormones to produce a second and third bloom. And if one of your cross-pollinated flowers develops, remove any shoots that come out afterward; this will force it to develop only your fruit.  This method has helped me achieve all the crosses I want..."

and I add something else: I have already tried these crosses and the flower selection is basic, I obtained a Pummelo pollinated with Microcitrus but there was contamination and it came out self-pollinated. I do not cover the flowers, but in this case you must do it... and two things, citrus maxima is to release pollen before the flower opens, if it is hot but there is no irrigation it usually releases its pollen. squeeze the buds and make sure that the petals are somewhat detached but not so much as to be like a balloon about to explode, since it would be releasing pollen. if in doubt, open it and squeeze the stamens with your fingers, if it leaves pollen, remove the flower. it must be at its perfect point of development and not releasing pollen in order to castrate it. about citrus caviar, you must see that the pollen is very orange since in the sun it usually dies quickly, it turns white and is useless. if you can't do it in the morning, cover the plant to have shade  and make it last longer on the flower. Use black tweezers; that helps you see if there are traces of pollen that could contaminate. And well, the rest is just trial and error 😋👌🏻. There's an Instagram site called Hervalistic, and they've already made crosses with C. maxima. There, I've posted photos of some fruit that haven't fully developed, but it's something.


tedburn

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2025, 02:18:26 AM »
Very interesting description Lauta_hibrid.
I don't have finger limes, but I heard from eating out of hand
they are not the best - what was the goal to cross them with pomelo ?
I would rather cross to get more tasty fruits or more
Cold hardyness or good combination of these two
Characteristics.

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2025, 10:09:13 PM »
He is a researcher, he's published on Microcitrus and its genius, but he has his own projects on creating new Australian citrus fruits... I suppose to generate new diversity. I don't find citrus caviar surprising in terms of flavor at all... I would do it just to play, to win a challenge. Generate a graft rootstock resistant to HLB and donate it to science, or generate giant citrus caviar for production... let's keep in mind that it only began to be domesticated in the 90s... so there are only very small fruit. Perhaps with C. maxima we can contribute the same thing that was contributed to the mandarin in its domestication... let's keep in mind that pure, wild mandarins are very small, perhaps like kishu.

citrange

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2025, 09:50:09 AM »
Yes, more than twenty years ago I tried some crosses between Australian citrus and pummelo/pomelo.
I thought I might end up with a good-sized and delicious hybrid fruit shaped like a cucumber, but it taught me a valuable lesson.
You can cross two varieties each with a desirable characteristic but the chances of getting the sum of those particular traits is actually very unlikely. So what happened? I finally had the fruits - they were the size and shape of a small pear. Thick-skinned, extremely sour and inedible. Very clearly a product of the two parents but not the result I had wanted.
In spite of losing some of the labels over the years, I still have 3 or 4 of those crosses. The trees are not particularly attractive, quite vigorous but rather loose, lanky branches and fairly small leaves.
My conclusion is that it is very difficult for an individual to produce a really good new variety. I think you need to make many hundreds of hybrids and select the best ones. It takes a very long time, and only research institutions or large commercial organisations have the ability to do it.
So, have fun, hope for the best but expect the worst!
Mike/Citrange

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2025, 10:27:00 PM »
Yes, more than twenty years ago I tried some crosses between Australian citrus and pummelo/pomelo.
I thought I might end up with a good-sized and delicious hybrid fruit shaped like a cucumber, but it taught me a valuable lesson.
You can cross two varieties each with a desirable characteristic but the chances of getting the sum of those particular traits is actually very unlikely. So what happened? I finally had the fruits - they were the size and shape of a small pear. Thick-skinned, extremely sour and inedible. Very clearly a product of the two parents but not the result I had wanted.
In spite of losing some of the labels over the years, I still have 3 or 4 of those crosses. The trees are not particularly attractive, quite vigorous but rather loose, lanky branches and fairly small leaves.
My conclusion is that it is very difficult for an individual to produce a really good new variety. I think you need to make many hundreds of hybrids and select the best ones. It takes a very long time, and only research institutions or large commercial organisations have the ability to do it.
So, have fun, hope for the best but expect the worst!
Mike/Citrange

Do you have any photos of the hybrids? And which parents did you use?

BorisR

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mikkel

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2025, 07:39:20 AM »
@Lauta do you know if herbalistics is on FB or has any other kind of web presence beside Insta?

Perplexed

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2025, 08:52:44 AM »
@Lauta do you know if herbalistics is on FB or has any other kind of web presence beside Insta?

https://www.facebook.com/share/1FADimRh79/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Ilya11

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2025, 10:30:54 AM »
@Lauta do you know if herbalistics is on FB or has any other kind of web presence beside Insta?
https://herbalistics.com.au/new-australian-fingerlime-hybrid/
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2025, 12:54:37 PM »
Thanks for the links!

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2025, 01:12:18 PM »
Do you have any photos of the hybrids? And which parents did you use?

Lauta_hibrid, do you know the citrange's website? I think it's described here:
https://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/hybridisation.html
https://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/hybridseedlings.html
https://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/hybridseedlings2009.html
https://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/hybridfruits2010.html

Sorry, with the usernames I may not be aware of who's talking. I saw that post years ago when I started. It was my inspiration to want to do that cross ☺️, and my fascination with Australian citrus fruits. By the way, in that cross Faustrime (a hybrid of lime and fingerlime) x C. maxima was used. This would make the offspring very heterozygous, alternating in characteristics of Lima (which is already a hybrid), fingerlime and C. maxima. For me the idea is to cross two pure species. We'll see what I achieve next spring.

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2025, 01:18:32 PM »
Maybe the blog is from 2010, so there were more plants without fruiting. I'd like to see what other shapes and fruits came out 😊. I also made my crazy crosses using C. maxima x Kunquat Nagami... what could come out of that would be a great mystery; I don't know anyone who has thought of making such a monster, hehe.

sc4001992

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2025, 06:03:19 PM »
Ok, another simple question for you experienced breeders. How can I tell if the flower when open has been pollenated?

I noticed some flowers on the pomelo seemed to already have the small fruit bump on the bottom even though I see the stigma just showing as the flower petals open up.

I did try cutting the flower petals and removing the stamen by cutting them all off of the flower I will pollinate.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2025, 01:24:39 AM by sc4001992 »

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2025, 06:59:42 PM »
What you need to look for is pollen. The closed flower of C. maxima may be releasing pollen, that's why I use black tweezers to squeeze the stamens, and if I notice a white, yellow, or orange powder left behind, it's because it's self-pollinated. C. maxima is tricky to find the right pollination point for... you have to have a very good eye. I squeezed the buds until they were soft, but not too soft. When it's hard, it's immature; when it's gathering air inside, it feels softer; that's when it's perfect. You open it, remove the petals by holding the base of the flower (so as not to break it), and pull them from one side so they begin to break. With the tweezers, you remove the stamens and squeeze them with the tweezers or with your fingers to see if you have any pollen left. If everything is okay, use that flower and remove the others.  Citrus maxima produces flowers in bunches, so it eliminates competition so it only forms your fruit. I leave one pollinated flower per branch; that's how I get all my fruit. Other citrus fruits also release pollen before opening, and it's usually related to a lack of water, since the hydration turgor is what allows them to open. Kunquats also sometimes release pollen before opening.

sc4001992

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Re: How to Cross Citrus Varieties - Need Help
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2025, 01:26:57 AM »
ok, thanks, will try that tomorrow.

 

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