Author Topic: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?  (Read 2984 times)

Lyn38

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how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« on: April 23, 2023, 10:45:29 PM »
For instance, if I planted honey mandarin or tangelo or any other mandarin/tangerine variety, would it taste very close to it's parent? Or would it just be some sort of mandarin? If not, would it most likely taste good? Like a 90% chance of tasting good?

caladri

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2023, 11:18:09 PM »
For zygotic offspring, you're asking a tricky genetic question that can't realistically be answered with a confidence interval like you're hoping for. For nucellar offspring, you would expect a genetic clone of the parent, which would only have surprising results if it turned out the parent was a chimera (like attempts to grow Shamouti from seed?), or if the fruit changed significantly over the course of the tree's maturity. What is your motivation for growing from seed, or is this a theoretical question?

Lyn38

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2023, 11:35:18 PM »
For zygotic offspring, you're asking a tricky genetic question that can't realistically be answered with a confidence interval like you're hoping for. For nucellar offspring, you would expect a genetic clone of the parent, which would only have surprising results if it turned out the parent was a chimera (like attempts to grow Shamouti from seed?), or if the fruit changed significantly over the course of the tree's maturity. What is your motivation for growing from seed, or is this a theoretical question?

Oh. I thought most polyembronic seed was nuclear and true to type. Not always? I have a file saved which categorizes those that are polyembronic. Genetic clone is awesome, but now I'm confused. I also now looked at the list and see that not all mandarins are TTT. EDIT; not all are polyembronic..


I don't live anywhere near a nursery which carries a lot of citrus, or any citrus for that matter. And quarantines have started 2 counties south of me where most nurseries that carry interesting stuff are. So- varieties are going to be more and more limited. Might as well toss a few seedlings in a pot, although I'd hate to water them if it was a rank gamble on taste later. EDIT; the quarantine is not only by state but also by county..

Then again, maybe it's a rank gamble anyway with greening disease as it spreads north.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 11:42:23 PM by Lyn38 »

brian

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2023, 12:33:24 PM »
For polyembryonic seeds the non zygotic seedlings should be clones, identical to parent.  What fraction of seeds are clones is dependent on type, varies from around 0-100%, you'd have to look up the specific type.  There are some general guidelines around but I don't have a link right now
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 12:35:20 PM by brian »

Millet

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2023, 01:11:37 PM »
All most all sweet Oranges, true Grapefruit, Lemons, Limes, pure mandarins, (other than King and Clementine) most Tangelos, hybrid Tangerines and Tangors (except temple) are true to type from seed.

drymifolia

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2023, 05:41:27 PM »
I thought most polyembronic seed was nuclear and true to type. Not always?
As Brian said, it's not usually 100% nucellar even for citrus known to be "true to seed." If you hypothetically planted 100 viable embryos from polyembryonic seeds in a citrus that is 80% nucellar, you would have about 80 clones and 20 zygotic seedlings, and you then need to figure out which is which.

While there are many methods for identifying clones (vigor, leaf shape, leaf taste), none of them are foolproof because a self-pollinated tree may produce some zygotic offspring that are so close to the parent that they will be indistinguishable from the clones until they become mature trees, so you can compare flowering time, fruit properties, etc.

If the cultivar does not produce viable pollen, or is self-incompatible, it may be easier to identify clones than for cultivars that are self-fertile.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 05:43:28 PM by drymifolia »

pagnr

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2023, 07:24:50 PM »
It is reasonably easy to tell stand out Zygotic seedlings from a large group of Nucellar Polyembryonic Swingle or Citrange seedlings.
They show characters toward either parent, more or less vigour etc.
It is harder with the more subtle differences between the clonal seedlings, or slightly off type seedlings.
The clonal seedlings have the same genes, but they can be slightly expressed or shuffled in expression.
With Polyembryonic seeds of CItrange and Swingle, there can also be a lot of smaller seedlings from smaller embryos,
These seem clonal but smaller.
Also there many of the tiny seedlings, variable weak off types.

Lyn38

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2023, 09:27:10 PM »
Thank you all, very much appreciated! Well, I guess I'll wait and just grow out rootstock for now, unless I happen to find a known mandarin I like in the grocery store that has seeds & lists as TTT. I've started to try mandarins here and there. Never was into them before- I thought all mandarins were sort of off-tasting, I think I've only had one type- maybe clementines, and was unaware there were so many varieties of them.

drymifolia

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2023, 10:27:43 PM »
unless I happen to find a known mandarin I like in the grocery store that has seeds & lists as TTT

I don't know of any mandarin that is 100% nucellar, but you could also just try to grow all the embryos in a single polyembryonic seed. Then, you are basically guaranteed that most of the seedlings are clones, and if one of them looks different than the rest as they grow up, then it's probably the zygotic one.

Enkis

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2023, 03:57:52 AM »
I stand for plant genetic identity preservation and i think this "true to type" seeds thing causes a lot of damage and confusion in this regard. You can have a clone from a seed but that's probably the worst way to do that and you are probably not able to identify it with high confidence. People often do this because seeds is all they can get, so they don't even own the original plant to compare with. If you want to do this for fun, that's great, but if you don't have the means to do the proper identification, please keep your plant for yourself, don't sell or share genetic material as if it came from the original plant
Keep planting and nobody explodes

pagnr

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2023, 05:05:50 AM »
I stand for plant genetic identity preservation and i think this "true to type" seeds thing causes a lot of damage and confusion in this regard. You can have a clone from a seed but that's probably the worst way to do that and you are probably not able to identify it with high confidence. People often do this because seeds is all they can get, so they don't even own the original plant to compare with. If you want to do this for fun, that's great, but if you don't have the means to do the proper identification, please keep your plant for yourself, don't sell or share genetic material as if it came from the original plant

Citrus seed has routinely been use to transfer Citrus varieties around the world in the past.
There is a high level of success in obtaining known varieties, and with knowledge of variety characteristics, off types can be rouged out at later stages.
Seed is easier to send with transit delays, compared to budwood.
More importantly seed is essentially virus free, whereas budwood often contains virus, or bacterial pathogens.
There is more skill required in growing rootstocks and grafting trees, compared to growing from seed.
Ideally both processes(  seed propagation and grafting )should be followed, as back up to each other.
There is always some risk of variety drift with seed propagation, leading to seperate lines of a variety in different areas.
This is also possible with budwood, more so with some types of Citrus than others.
Bud sport mutations have lead to many Navel Orange varieties, even bud Chimera hybrids are known, where two types fuse into one bud creating a " hybrid " tree.
I think there is a need to balance variety preservation with genetic change and increased diversity.
If new variety types are clearly designated as such, I don't see such a problem.
Maintaining overly strict variety identity can lead to them to become genetic artefacts.
This has its good points, for preserving genetic diversity, and for cross breeding.
Many varieties have also lost their use purpose or utility in later years, ie Cider Apples, Storage Apples, Citrons for candied peel, Seville Orange for Marmalade Jam.
These varieties still exist, but have largely lost their use and popularity in modern times.

Enkis

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2023, 06:16:14 AM »
I'm not against seed propagation of cultivars but if identification is required you need to be able to do that. In my opinion you can't say a seedling is a clone just because leaves look, taste or smell "right".
There's no perfect way to propagate a plant, this is why it's important to preserve specimen as close to the source as possible so that you can use them as reference. With time some drift is inevitabile.

There is more skill required in growing rootstocks and grafting trees, compared to growing from seed.
True, but again, you might need to identify the plant to be sure you got it right. Identification in my opinion requires more knowledge and experience then decent grafting skills do. If you agree with me that leaves alone can't identify a plant you would also agree that identification takes a lot of time because leaves is all you will get for a while.
Grafting is always usefull and inexpensive, I would highly recommend everyone to learn it regardless of the method of propagation you like the most.
Keep planting and nobody explodes

pagnr

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2023, 08:03:11 AM »
Many plant varieties in Horticulture are routinely and reliably propagated from seed. Vegetables, grains, ornamentals, forestry tree varieties for uniform stands of timber.
For fruit trees, rootstock varieties of many types are seed propagated to produce highly identical types of plants.
These are fairly easily visually identified between varieties or strains.
Some types of Citrus and Mango produce clonal nucellar polyembryonic seed.
These are regarded to be clones of the parent plant.

Ilya11

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2023, 09:46:19 AM »
Maintaining overly strict variety identity can lead to them to become genetic artefacts.

I was not sure to understand this phrase especially in the context of loosing Cider Apple popularity.
But ChatGPT explained it to me:
This phrase suggests that if a particular variety of a plant or animal is maintained too strictly, without allowing for any genetic variation or diversity, it can become a genetic artifact. In other words, if the identity of the variety is too narrowly defined and preserved, it may lose important genetic traits that could make it more resilient or better adapted to changing environmental conditions.

Maintaining genetic diversity is crucial for the survival of any species, as it enables them to adapt to changes in their environment, resist diseases and pests, and cope with climate change. Without genetic diversity, a species may become vulnerable to environmental stressors, leading to population declines or even extinction.

Therefore, the phrase is suggesting that maintaining strict variety identity without allowing for genetic variation can be detrimental to the long-term survival of the species or variety.
 An excellent explanation indeed  :)
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Enkis

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2023, 10:45:46 AM »
Fruit/tree "variety" to me means a cultivar, like an alphonso mango for example.
You keep genetic diversity by having many varieties/cultivars. In fact, new named varieties are created all the time and some will commercially replace the older ones as they get more resistant, tastier, good looking etc. But you want the alphonso mango to consistently be an alphonso mango otherwise it would be a mess. You can improve the alphonso mango and at the same time increase diversity by creating new named varieties out of it.
Keep planting and nobody explodes

1rainman

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2023, 12:16:24 PM »
With grapes self pollinated seeds have less vigor due to inbreeding. Don't know if citrus is the same. You can get interesting results selfing for breeding purposes. Once you cross the inbred strain again vigor is restored. But self pollinated seedlings are generally less desirable. This is why they emasculate a self fertile variety take away all the pollen when breeding. It's just too complicated of a process. It's easier to use females or a hermaphrodite that is mostly female and doesn't self pollinate much. Clones are good but then they lack genetic diversity this a disease like hlb can wipe them out. Maybe citrus is different.

kumin

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2023, 12:38:16 PM »
Results may vary due to the particular genetics involved in a group of seedlings. I've seen zygotic Citrumelo seedlings with severe inbreeding depression. I've also seen a large population of citrange seedlings again exhibiting inbreeding depression in a percentage of the progeny, a percentage were similar in vigor to the nucellar seedlings but also included a smaller percentage of zygotic seedlings that exceeded the nucellar seedlings in vigor.
Fı hybrids outcrossed to a less closely related partner can be quite vigorous.

sc4001992

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2023, 01:20:49 PM »
I have a question for you guys who know about naturally crossed seedlings. My question is, do you think the last remaining two seedlings are a clone of the parent tree?

These two seedlings are very large compared to most of the other loquat seedlings planted in other large garden tubs. Do you think these will be clones of the parent or a hybrid?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 07:22:22 AM by sc4001992 »

drymifolia

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2023, 02:01:55 PM »
I have a question for you guys who know about naturally crossed seedlings. I planted hundreds of loquat seeds last summer. I have one batch of loquat seedlings now that was in a large garden tub/container which has over 100 seeds. It now has only the two most vigorous seedlings that grew from the 100 seeds, I let the other smaller ones die off. My question is, do you think the last remaining two seedlings are a clone of the parent tree?

These two seedlings are very large compared to most of the other loquat seedlings planted in other large garden tubs. Do you think these will be clones of the parent or a hybrid?

I am not aware of any loquat that produces nucellar/apomictic seeds, so I would assume all those seedlings are zygotic unless you're aware of research to the contrary. I did not Google it or ask chatGPT, lol.

pagnr

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2023, 03:52:58 PM »
I have several fruiting Loquat seedlings, that came up as volunteers from one only parent tree tree. There are slight differences in the fruit of these seedlings.
Going by that, I would say yours are probably not clones, but wait till they fruit and see.  There is also slight differences in ripening times, which is helpful.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 04:00:06 PM by pagnr »

sc4001992

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2023, 04:27:05 PM »
Ok, thanks. I think I do see one of the large seedlings which seems to have multiple rootstock branches so it might be the one closes to the parent (clone).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 03:47:00 AM by sc4001992 »

pagnr

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2023, 09:25:53 PM »
Do you notice any difference in the Loquat seedlings leaf shape ? Some are longer, some are rounder. If you have multiple varieties they be more likely cross pollinated seedlings.

sc4001992

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2023, 10:03:04 PM »
Yes, I do see some differences in the leaves of some loquat seedlings.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 03:46:02 AM by sc4001992 »

mikkel

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2023, 01:30:16 AM »
I have a lot of loquat seedlings too. Just for fun. How long will it take until maturity? I guess it takes a long time, right?

sc4001992

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Re: how true-to-seed is true-to-seed?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2023, 02:02:33 AM »
My seedling loquats start to fruit at age 4yrs-7yrs, much faster than any citrus seedlings I grew.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 07:25:03 AM by sc4001992 »