Author Topic: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?  (Read 7150 times)

passionate4nature

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How to avoid scion Abortion by the Avocado Roostock?

This Year I had two Trees (Hass and Bacon), that aborted many multi graft scions.  A and B types grafted to them. Pinched tips. Both get water. I put foil over to prevent sunburn (though it turns black when you taken off in several weeks). Even had pieces I find just dropped to the ground from the branch knuckle.

The tree is aborting from the main limbs and trunk it's own wood to kill off the scions. Even stumped rootstock w/ sucker growth can dry up and goto black. Any way to avoid this. Some of the scions are still green but the tree killed all rootstock branches. It's flushing it's own branches now. This happened with grafts done in the Spring and Summer.

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« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 01:55:03 AM by passionate4nature »

spaugh

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2025, 05:27:34 PM »
The branches they were grafted onto already kind of look cooked.  When were the grafts done?  And how does the tree look?  Post a photo of the trees?
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2025, 06:01:59 PM »
What type of graft were you doing ? Also it's better to select upward growth branches because sometimes smaller side branches will be aborted by mother tree!
Pic's of tree could help also!
Robert

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2025, 08:23:20 PM »
The branches they were grafted onto already kind of look cooked.  When were the grafts done?  And how does the tree look?  Post a photo of the trees?

Branches were green, big pencil to quarter diameter, white center. Green Cambium. I do have more aggressive varieties on there. AKA Duke, etc. It wasn't till summer hit it started aborting some of them. Spring it took some. I tried to cut the tree back to get it to shoot.
I ask my friend who grafts a lot here he also had it happen, rootstock aborted branch to scions.


passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2025, 08:30:10 PM »
What type of graft were you doing ? Also it's better to select upward growth branches because sometimes smaller side branches will be aborted by mother tree!
Pic's of tree could help also!
Robert
Maybe that's it. Grafts were Bark on bigger pieces, also cleft if there was a match. I even did side bark grafts to try to get higher takes.  But it also aborted upward branches. With New Growth from early Spring. Grafts were done in the Spring. Then foil rapped. I started to find them on the ground. Brancheswere green, pencil to quarter thickness, green cambium, signs of new growth. Tried on both Bacon and Hass. Established roots.

Grafts were under a taller canopy so limited sunlight until they take and grow out on the Duke / Hass. Bacon was able to get full sun.

Let me see if I can get some pics. It's a multigraft. Suckers from top worked rootstock were grafted. Then grafts to the ones that took off like Duke.

Have noticed now the tree is actively budding new leaves of it's own type after drying and killing back branches of scions. Some scions are still green but branch of the rootstock is dried up and dead.

I asked a friend who also grafts a ton locally CARFG and said he has abortions as well of grafts.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2025, 09:00:56 PM by passionate4nature »

CA Hockey

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2025, 11:48:32 PM »
Seems to happen to some rootstocks. I have the same problem with an old sir prize rootstock that has Taft growing in it and that's the only graft that it has ever let take , and it's only like a foot and a half despite being 5 or 6 years old . Keeps trying to grow around it.

You can try letting the rootstock suckers grow for a full season so that the tree commits more resources to it then graft onto it. Or you can do it I did and just plant new seeds. I've been fighting this tree for 6 years now and it's just wasting my time.

spaugh

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2025, 12:09:18 AM »
I graft in december and get pretty much 90%+ takes. 

I would try getting the graft work done by February at the latest for avocados but your mileage may vary.
Brad Spaugh

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2025, 01:58:05 AM »
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passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2025, 02:02:17 AM »
I graft in december and get pretty much 90%+ takes. 

I would try getting the graft work done by February at the latest for avocados but your mileage may vary.

Posted Some pics, was reading that from you before "Jan" on grafting. But it's much hotter there than here. We have fog and rain till like your June Gloom with days of Sun. Plants don't like Hot to Cold Nights. We had 20-30 degrees difference some days. But yes like my other fruit trees in dormancy in Winter maybe I will try it. Problem is the scion purchase places don't supply in the Winter. Also don't the trees have to be actively growing and leafing out?? Some of my avos even loose their leaves in the Winter.

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2025, 02:08:21 AM »
Seems to happen to some rootstocks. I have the same problem with an old sir prize rootstock that has Taft growing in it and that's the only graft that it has ever let take , and it's only like a foot and a half despite being 5 or 6 years old . Keeps trying to grow around it.

You can try letting the rootstock suckers grow for a full season so that the tree commits more resources to it then graft onto it. Or you can do it I did and just plant new seeds. I've been fighting this tree for 6 years now and it's just wasting my time.

Posted pics. Do you think I can graft the laterals of the Duke?? That is what is hogging the resources and tallest (Pic 1) of sucker top work.

Very interesting thanks. I have had it happen with 3 established and suckering trees. It may be a resource thing. I like the idea of letting the suckers take off for 1-2 years and doing it so they are not so young.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 07:35:16 AM by passionate4nature »

spaugh

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2025, 02:15:14 AM »
My trees are sort or dormant in December when grafting and then they start to flower in February or March and then flush out in April.  My grafts sit there and do nothing for 3-4 months but by the time the heat starts to come they are well healed and then just flush out nicely the same time as the trees normally would.  Even if it is cooler there I would still try grafting before spring or in early spring like 6 weeks or more before your trees really kick into full gear. 

Anyway good luck, keep trying you will get it figured out.  Just takes practice. 
Brad Spaugh

CA Hockey

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2025, 03:04:02 AM »
No tricks. Some rootstocks are just finicky. Most of the rootstocks are seedlings and don't have predictable behavior.

I personally prefer to graft avos in April and may. I find they flush within 3 weeks at that point. My November - February grafts just sit around until March or April anyways. I'll graft at that time if I have to, but all things being equal I'd rather graft in the warmth and activity of spring without the risk of punishing imminent summer heat.

I find the same with Laverne Manila mango rootstocks. I bought 20 several years ago before they changed ownership. Some of the rootstocks are just fine while others refuse to accept grafts or will take but try and grow around them with multiple spaghetti-like suckers. I have to keep chasing down these suckers to keep the grafts growing but after doing this for several years I realize it's just easier to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the rootstock and work with it or replace it.

I'd say let a couple of suckers grow but only the ones that you plan to graft onto, maybe 3 or 4, and try grafting onto them next year or the year after.

Down the road, you can then graft onto the grafts and maybe you'll have better luck with the so-called interstock. You can also plant seeds next to your existing tree and graft onto the seeds. The new grafts will grow in the shade of the larger tree. Avocados can benefit from a nurse tree to shade them when small and later you can bring down the bigger tree if it's still jot cooperating or let the trunks fuse etc etc

Good luck

Avofan

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2025, 03:26:26 AM »
You need to force the grafts
Avocado is always trying to bypass the grafts like an injury
You’d be better off to take off all the branches at once if you want to multigraft

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2025, 07:25:30 AM »
You need to force the grafts
Avocado is always trying to bypass the grafts like an injury
You’d be better off to take off all the branches at once if you want to multigraft

Can you expand on this more please.
How would you go about doing this with branches that have existing multi grafts varieties on those trees I want to keep and add more varieties? Top working the whole tree at one time is easier. I am pinching the aggressive varieties.


When do you do your grafts as I see your in Oakland, CA?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 07:45:48 AM by passionate4nature »

drymifolia

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2025, 05:34:56 PM »
It is very challenging to multigraft an avocado tree, no matter how much pinching you do on the vigorous branches, the tree is just too likely to focus energies on the most vigorous branches, or push new sprouts from the base. I have pretty high success rates with late spring and late summer single-variety grafts here in Seattle (but I'm colder than you). But any time I try to build a multigraft tree I'll be lucky to get 50% takes after the initial set of grafts because you cannot properly force the grafts once you have other grafts on the tree that you want to keep. My worst success rates are in winter or early spring, it seems that it's just too cold here and the trees are more likely to abort the grafted stem than form callus.

Is there some reason you want to go the multigraft route? Space constraints or something? I've decided 2 varieties is the most I'll do for outdoor trees, anything more is not worth it other than on my greenhouse trees (space constraints indoors).  For 2-variety trees I recommend doing at least 2 grafts of each variety on the same tree and then if you get more than one to take of the same variety you can remove the weaker one(s).

If I want to also test the rootstock, I'll later allow a rootstock branch to grow, once grafts are established. Brad correctly schooled me on not letting rootstock branches remain at the same time as the initial graft, as that greatly increases the chance the graft will be aborted.

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2025, 06:01:37 PM »
It is very challenging to multigraft an avocado tree, no matter how much pinching you do on the vigorous branches, the tree is just too likely to focus energies on the most vigorous branches, or push new sprouts from the base. I have pretty high success rates with late spring and late summer single-variety grafts here in Seattle (but I'm colder than you). But any time I try to build a multigraft tree I'll be lucky to get 50% takes after the initial set of grafts because you cannot properly force the grafts once you have other grafts on the tree that you want to keep. My worst success rates are in winter or early spring, it seems that it's just too cold here and the trees are more likely to abort the grafted stem than form callus.

Is there some reason you want to go the multigraft route? Space constraints or something? I've decided 2 varieties is the most I'll do for outdoor trees, anything more is not worth it other than on my greenhouse trees (space constraints indoors).  For 2-variety trees I recommend doing at least 2 grafts of each variety on the same tree and then if you get more than one to take of the same variety you can remove the weaker one(s).

If I want to also test the rootstock, I'll later allow a rootstock branch to grow, once grafts are established. Brad correctly schooled me on not letting rootstock branches remain at the same time as the initial graft, as that greatly increases the chance the graft will be aborted.

Thank you so much for your input, value the advice of everyone here.
The thought was multigraft onto failed in ground trees and have full trees in a much larger space elsewhere. Call it a scion nursery. Many of my scions have failed from ordering sources as they are not fresh and premium / poor bud quality. If you have them available of course you can get some for ultimate take. I also put the varieties I would not want huge trees of mexicola, duke, or overly large trees that take up to much room (to dwarf them). Like you I would love to grow in a greenhouse a multigraft in a pot, but was trying it with unusable trees that did not produce firstly. You are right I did topwork, and single, dual varieties are so much easier to do then multigrafting.

I did think about that. When you graft under the canopy say on suckers, unless they are as CA Hockey said above (2 years old) they are shaded out. So was considering Sun as well. I am sure it favors vigor (Duke) or it's own genetics over scions it does not want. Resource wise I don't know how "Joe Real" does it. Is it he is only adding 1-2 new varieties at a time to not take to many resources. Because if you do more it will favor only some or itself. Pinching seems to do little unless you chop it off to keep the height manageable of the vigorous ones, then you can get sunburn though.

I did as you say graft in the late Spring as here we were 40 degrees differences some night/days, that is nuts. We don't even hit summer till July (Indian Summer) so Spring weather is latter but areas of sunshine in the Winter.

Interesting So Brad is chopping off the branches and only leaving vertical scions. I have seen his top work videos but never with multigraft where you have to keep varieties. It seems to bud and grow around the scion branches even in branch junctions.

spaugh

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2025, 06:39:51 PM »
When you wrote "under the canopy" earlier I thought you meant the tree being grafted was under another tree.  But now I see you mean it is scions hidden inside the tree. 

Thats definitely not what you want.  You want the grafts above the rest of the tree so it has apical dominance.  Or at least on the exterior of the tree in an area that has been cut back and is exposed to full sun. 

If you look inside or walk inside a mature avocado tree you will notice all the interior branches die and dry up.  The tree only keeps alive the outer branches that get sunlight. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 06:44:30 PM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2025, 07:03:10 PM »

I have one larger seedling tree that I have 31 varieties grafted (or from 31 sources), and the grafts are all doing well on one tree. I also graft from Feb-Oct most of the year on my fruit trees with no problems with grafts, I will at least get one graft from each variety I graft to take from each grafting session.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2025, 02:03:19 PM by sc4001992 »

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2025, 07:48:45 PM »
Maybe you need to practice grafting more?

Did you have an experienced grafter show you how to graft, doesn't sound like it. Just watching YouTube will not always work.

I have one larger seedling tree that I have 31 varieties grafted (or from 31 sources), and the grafts are all doing well on one tree. I also graft from Feb-Oct most of the year on my fruit trees with no problems with grafts, I will at least get one graft from each variety I graft to take from each grafting session.

I would be happy to learn all your tips and tips to multi graft. Can you do a video or write up or give me some pointers. I followed Brads video a few years ago to top work (great stuff). I follow "Joe Real" (Growing Fruit / Tropical) but he does not give all the tips to make it work. I remember all the posts on Growing Fruit of others who could not do the same thing with his mega citrus and mango that he even had in pots. He often does things, but does not tell you everything he did. Studied very in-depth his posts. So everything is by trial.

Regarding Skill I don't claim to be an expert. I have grafted over 50 avocado Seedling this year, and several mature trees. I also have a friend who helps me graft sometimes who is a teacher for CFRFG Local Chapter, he said most can't keep a multi graft going. Multi grafting is not easy top working or 1-2 varieties as you know ;-) Many other things to think about. I have 6 varieties on one and 8 on the other. I think it was 7 grafts on one and 9 on the other that took this year, but many aborted and some were repeats of the same thing for insurance. But yes it aborted many this year. Perhaps Brad is right it's a combo of Duke, etc being a hog of resources and instead of tipping I should have chopped it back It grew over my grafts. But that does not explain the Bacon who had exposed branches in the Sun. Foil was placed over them.

Maybe my rootstocks are a dud as 2 other posters said above.

Thanks for your help! :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 08:10:46 PM by passionate4nature »

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2025, 07:54:09 PM »
When you wrote "under the canopy" earlier I thought you meant the tree being grafted was under another tree.  But now I see you mean it is scions hidden inside the tree. 

Thats definitely not what you want.  You want the grafts above the rest of the tree so it has apical dominance.  Or at least on the exterior of the tree in an area that has been cut back and is exposed to full sun. 

If you look inside or walk inside a mature avocado tree you will notice all the interior branches die and dry up.  The tree only keeps alive the outer branches that get sunlight.

That is a lesson this year Brad. I tipped the growth but Duke etc are just sooo vigorous that it should have been chopped back hard. It overgrew the scions that were on suckers. As CA Hockey said maybe I should have let the suckers mature 1-2 years to get some vigor to them? But that does not explain the Bacon, exposed branches in the sun as you see from the pic above, it favored it's own genetics. Put foil over it. As soon as I took the foil off the scions started to brown. But Also by this time it had aborted many on the ground from the trunk. The Hass also did this but the suckers dried up to push the other growth.

I have 6 varieties on one and 8 on the other. I think it was 7 grafts on one and 9 on the other that took this year, but many aborted.  Possibly too much at one time. This year I did cut back hard the Bacon and take off the growth from the branches. To see if that would give a headstart.

How do you make sure, ... besides latex paint that it does not burn. I chopped back 7' and the tree did not grow, died and burnt once, was not good. Especially when multigrafting as resources are limited.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 08:08:00 PM by passionate4nature »

Seanny

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2025, 10:53:57 PM »
One person said that he failed at multi grafting avocado.
I said I have a Sharwil grafted to Reed.
He said Julie Frink told him that avocado rejects multiple grafts.
I was surprised to hear that.

Anyway, my Reed currently have 3 bark grafts of Sharwil.


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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2025, 11:59:25 PM »
I dont know if this applies to you but this was my experience.  I started topworking my tree back in 2023.  My experience with my grafts has been that I had excessive dieback on many grafts that were even 1 year old at time that had been growing and flushing countless times.  What I could tell was that anything shaded just for a few months would dieback and branches aborted.  This made it hard to topwork low and anything after the first year for me that was added after the rest of the grafts took off.  I don't know if it's because it's an avo or the age as this tree was pronbably planted in the 40s.  But i do have many multigrafted trees of various species, i never ever had this kind of dieback or aborting of limbs on other species but don't have anything this old.  I probably lost close to a dozen this way even after a year of growth.  My SC gold for example died back twice and i grafted 3 times, i could tell when it is about to dieback it would just all of suddenly drop its leaves so I would harvest a few scions and pick another spot.  This 3rd spot js being grafted high up wirh lots of access to sunlight, crossing finger this is long live.  Currently, I have large grafted branches of Gem, Jan Boyce, Kahaluu, Reed, Stewart, Carmen, Sir Prize, and the original tree was Nabal. And some small grafted branches of other varieties.   Gking forward i would graft high up or continuous prune around new grafts so that it will always have access to full fun. This is the tree.

https://youtu.be/4bdqGqAQraY?si=e23nfrZKtkyM4Qrv
« Last Edit: August 15, 2025, 12:02:18 AM by Eggo »

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2025, 07:09:42 AM »
One person said that he failed at multi grafting avocado.
I said I have a Sharwil grafted to Reed.
He said Julie Frink told him that avocado rejects multiple grafts.
I was surprised to hear that.

Anyway, my Reed currently have 3 bark grafts of Sharwil.

Glad you had 3 work, keep adding on it gets harder. Perhaps if someone does too many at one time that is bad, the less the better over time is more manageable. 

I think it's more complex than just rejecting multigrafts which Julie Fink said. I don't think most people with space, added time, or who want a lot of a favored variety will multigraft. Eventually some varieties will take over.  It's how old the tree is (established roots/ vigor/health), as some of the others have said if the rootstock takes the scions or aborts/rejects. Then thinking about what takes resources (3 grafts compared to say 10 grafts or a total topwork) and it's growth behavior compared to the rootstock and other varieties, time of year / weather, Sun, branches prox to the top - atypical dom, how good your budwood is, and luck. I am sure I am forgetting more items. I am sure u/sc4001992 can give us more hints and tips.

passionate4nature

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2025, 07:27:58 AM »
I dont know if this applies to you but this was my experience.  I started topworking my tree back in 2023.  My experience with my grafts has been that I had excessive dieback on many grafts that were even 1 year old at time that had been growing and flushing countless times.  What I could tell was that anything shaded just for a few months would dieback and branches aborted.  This made it hard to topwork low and anything after the first year for me that was added after the rest of the grafts took off.  I don't know if it's because it's an avo or the age as this tree was pronbably planted in the 40s.  But i do have many multigrafted trees of various species, i never ever had this kind of dieback or aborting of limbs on other species but don't have anything this old.  I probably lost close to a dozen this way even after a year of growth.  My SC gold for example died back twice and i grafted 3 times, i could tell when it is about to dieback it would just all of suddenly drop its leaves so I would harvest a few scions and pick another spot.  This 3rd spot js being grafted high up wirh lots of access to sunlight, crossing finger this is long live.  Currently, I have large grafted branches of Gem, Jan Boyce, Kahaluu, Reed, Stewart, Carmen, Sir Prize, and the original tree was Nabal. And some small grafted branches of other varieties.   Gking forward i would graft high up or continuous prune around new grafts so that it will always have access to full fun. This is the tree.

https://youtu.be/4bdqGqAQraY?si=e23nfrZKtkyM4Qrv

This is interesting thanks. Sounds like what CA Hockey said about letting the suckers age and have more resources vigor to take off and get the sun. It's hard to do this when everything is the same height or age. I think too much at once stresses resource and perhaps I was greedy trying to do to many at once. Some of these multigrafts they only add 1-2 varieties at a time/year it seems. This also brings to mind Brads comment about shade and cutting around sucker or branch to get it more sun. My scions never pushed so I did not cut around them for more sun. My thinking was avos like to grow under the canopy of other trees and the suckers were already doing this. If they get to much sun they burn (so I use foil). But yes the tree aborted and wanted it's own growth / the most vigorous ones kept growing. 

Regarding your tree and the age sounds like it did not want to change. I only saw a avo that old someone was grafting varieties to here and he had grown from seed. Perhaps the genetics were better to accept other varieties. that tree was HUGE. My bacon seem supper fussy about adding grafts. I thought at first is was incompatible B type with A, but I also tried B with the same result. I hope your 3 graft result lives and takes. Are you afraid about burn "going forward putting on top for atypical dom." I mean we use latex to protect exposed trunks, so when the top is opened up I had reservations about that. I think Joe Real takes a leaf, wraps it around the scion or a branch he pins over it till he wants it to have full sun. I would love to hear from  u/sc4001992 more thoughts on multi graft as I know his is doing well.

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Re: Avocado Multigraft Scion Abortion of Budwood from Rootstock - Why?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2025, 12:22:41 PM »
The tree you show in pic's looks good and healthy I would graft on upward facing branches towards top of canopy! Alos, agree with brad best time for grafting avocados in Ca. is Dec,-Feb. outside, if you have potted trees can graft almost all year long in green house (Jan.-Sept.). Also I use single edge razor in ex-atco holder for softer younger wood with cottony insides! I cover outside grafts with white paper bags until growth starts then tear bag open a little more each week to expose growing graft to more sun slowly!