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Anyone ever try grafting mulberry to Che?
Incidentally, as has been mentioned, Poncirus polyandra is more frost-hardy; for years I have been cultivating it outdoors with very little winter protection.
I think this is the first time I've seen anyone state what polyandra's hardiness was.
Hello usirius,
great that you have both forms. I've only ever heard that there are 2 forms and didn't know which form mine belonged to
I think I have the one with the smaller leaves. It also seems to be more like the one in the species description.
At the beginning I had a plant outside, but it froze back at -6°C, since then I've had it in a pot. How much has it survived with you?
In the photos it looks as if the form with the larger leaves occasionally develops monofoliate leaves. Is this the case or have the smaller leaves fallen off?
Have your plants already flowered? It has already flowered in Oer-Erkenschwick, but I haven't read anything about fruit yet. One of my plants is descended from this flowering one, but there have been no flowers here yet.
Thank you!
usirius,
perhaps your ponсirus does not produce fruits from summer flowering, but this is not the case everywhere. This may be due to the weather or the characteristics of the clone. Skandiberg previously wrote that the Bayush clone now has unripe green fruits at the top of the tree. I also noted this on another ponсirus and showed a photo. This property of ponсirus has been discussed on forums more than once. Unripe green fruits on the tree certainly affect winter hardiness. And for a hybrid of pontirus with other citruses, it is better not to have late flowering. The question is whether there are clones without summer flowering, or all mature strong trees in good conditions re-bloom in summer.
The origin must remain a secretbut there are now several collectors who have them and a botanical garden in Germany also got them this way.
So far all the flowers are sterile and no fruit has formed
I gave some 'Bajusz' fruits to the owner of tropusikert.hu. He says 'Bajusz' is better than what remembers of the selections he sells/sold.
Navel on poncirus fruits is not that uncommon and some poncirus clones have fruits with navel regularly, you can see it on some US trifoliates: https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3345
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc2862
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3217
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3206
So navel alone is not an indication that it is a hybrid, in my first trifoliate test a few years ago I also had 2 fruits with navel.
Hello, I'm interested in citrus precocity. I don't mind the trait is recessive. Are there any places with seeds or cuttings? Are there aternatively any other precocious citruses?
Wow.
Stupid or not, it was worth asking that question.
Boris and Bussone,
Thank you for the article and the additional information. I knew of the variability of PT but this is new to me. I thought all Poncirus clones were superior to any of the hybrids in hardiness boosting, just by a different margin. And so it seems they aren't. Thank you for pointing it out.
This is an interesting article.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1815977
There are two primary takeaways, I think.
1. Poncirus isn't just cold-hardy. It's also really disease-hardy, and its genome is much more active on the cold-hardiness and disease-resistance fronts than is typical of citrus. (This is why it's beloved as a rootstock)
2. The US poncirus selections are not diverse.
Thus, it's conceivable that our image of poncirus as sticky, foul-tasting mess may just be a selection of the items the USDA saw promising as rootstock after a few gatherings, selected with flavor entirely as an after-thought. Non-US poncirus examples may have very different offerings and provide different experiences.
Yes, exactly.
Whatever it is, 'Bajusz' likely sailed through -19/-20⁰C at least two times in its lifetime. I think that is decent but still not uncommon for a PT, but any hybrid can be proud of that.
Skandiberg sent me some fruits of a better Poncirus a few days ago. Here my review:
The fruits were very juicy. That is not untypical for Poncirus. But the pulp contained less fiber material than other Ponciruses. After staining only seeds, hardly any pulp remained. The smell of the unopend fruits was very pleasant. Also not untypical. But the smell of the opened fruits was also quite pleasant, that is to say much less resinuous than common Poncirus. I tasted the fresh fruits. They contained a normal amount of sticky substance and had the typcial tan flavour that is the main obstacle for enjoying Poncirus fruits. Again, the tan flavour was much less pronounced than in normal Poncirus so that I could eat the pulp without selfcontrol. The peel was horribly bitter as any other Poncirus peel is.
I let the juicy stand for half a day as I always do with Poncirus juice so that the sticky substance falls to the bottom of the glas and the resiuous / tan flavour fades away. Then I made lemonade from the juice. Such a lemonade is usually very tasty no matter what Poncirus types you use. In this case, it was outstanding tasty without any bitterness, just a very good and balanced citrus taste (lemony with orange subtones).
I really recommend this Poncirus type for propagation and cuisine use. I can directly compare it to Swamp Lemon (= Nikita) which I processes a few days before. Skandibergs Poncirus is significantly better. It contains less of the typical Poncirus off-flavours (the resinuous ones). The lemonade from Swamp Lemon was also tasty. My children also enjoyed it. But they made an interesting comment: "There is something in it, I don't know what, that is strange. But still very tasty." This hard to describe something (probably a weak reflex of some bitterness or resin) is totally absent in the lemonade from the fruits sent to me by Skandiberg. But the greatest difference can be observed when you compare fresh fruits. Swamp Lemon is closer to normal Poncirus.
I have never eaten Poncirus+ fruits. But in my personal ranking Till #1 (a variety discovered by myself) is the very best without any off-flavours in fresh fruits (at least in one, the first, year), followed by Skandibergs fruits, follwed by Swamp Lemon and then a variety of Mainz botanical garden (the left one in the arboretum). I should eat fruits of Changsha x Poncirus F2 from Usirius and PT#7 again to update my memories. So far as I remember these fruits might compete with the fruits of Skandiberg. The unique property of Usirius hybrid is a mandarine flavour, less acids and less sticky substance. PT#7 has just Poncirus taste but is milder, less sour and containes less sticky substance. Both hybrids are said to be as hardy as Poncirus.
Does anyone else grow Kyoho or ruby Roman? Has it ever produced the golf ball sized grapes? Do they taste the same as the ones in Japan?
I have many seeds
I am always trying to have seeds of different area's to widen the gene pool (In woods wild planting)
Maybe I could trade for different pawpaw seeds as someone could use these,
and do not want to ask of something I already have, (My Mom taught me that)
Would you want that Take some of my seeds spread them where your family lives, and send me some of yours from Michigan ?
(or anyone else send me some from there area for some of mine)
Those plants look extremely healthy. Keep us updated! Great progressThanks for your feedback. Yes I will keep you informed as well. There would already be a lot more to tell. For example, the difference in the seedlings - this could perhaps be an indication of differences in the chromosome sets. According to the studies shown in the above-mentioned postscript that seedlings of hybrids can have different chromosome sets in different proportions,. Then I could show pictures of the seeds, which actually looked very strange. Soon I will harvest a pawpaw fruit that was pollinated with cherimoya pollen, I will definitely take pictures of the seeds and document all interesting observations about the future seedlings.
@ Guanabanus
Very constructive and interesting - your report on the hybrid you made - thank you for this Information.
Yes absolutely, a polyploid hybrid does not have to be fertile.
Also there are examples which show that polyploidy can help to get fertile plant hybrids. The cereale hybrid Triticiale - a cross between wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) as the female and rye (Secale cereale L.) as the male partner (×Triticosecale or Triticosecale Wittmack) ) the chromosome sets were doubled by using colchicine in the seedlings to obtain fertile offspring. In other words, the doubling of the chromosome sets could only lead to reproductive ability. Triticiale offsprings are usually selsbstungen from Trticicale x Triticiale h itself would actually have the possibility to work with colhizin, but I have not yet worked with it. I would have to read in and study the method, then I could also use it on the Annonaceae.
At this point I like to remember to one of my last posts - to the presentation which takes a summary of
Haldan's rule and the hybridogenic speciation and postzygotic incompatibility. Haldane (1892-1964) was a British Indian geneticist.
https://www.kunz.hhu.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Fakultaeten/Mathematisch-Naturwissenschaftliche_Fakultaet/Biologie/Institute/weitere_und_ehemalige_Dozenten/Prof._Dr._Kunz/07_Haldane_hybridogene_Artbildung.ppt (Sorry that it is written in German language. But the pictures will help to explain.)
So in genetics everything is possible. From no result to infertility to the emergence of a separate species with differentiation by developing an incompatibility to backcrossing with the parents. In the plant kingdom the development of incompatible hybrids
At this point I would also like to refer to another interesting report and quote from it: I think some of you, you maybe anyway, I will already know, A. muricata is also mentioned, sorry not A. coriacea )
Polyploidy in Fruit Tree Crops of the Genus Annona (Annonaceae)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378316/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331019625_Polyploidy_in_Fruit_Tree_Crops_of_the_Genus_Annona_Annonaceae/fulltext/5c6181d692851c48a9ca964d/Polyploidy-in-Fruit-Tree-Crops-of-the-Genus-Annona-Annonaceae.pdf
"Genome duplication or polyploidy is one of the main factors of speciation in plants. It is especially frequent in hybrids and very valuable in many crops. (...) Surprisingly, while the hybrid atemoya has been reported as diploid, flow cytometry analysis of a progeny obtained from an interspecific cross between A. cherimola and A. squamosa showed an unusual ploidy variability that was also confirmed karyotype analysis. hile the progeny from intraspecific crosses of A. cherimola showed polyploid genotypes that ranged from 2.5 to 33%, the hybrid atemoyas from the interspecific cross showed 35% of triploids from a total of 186 genotypes analyzed. With the aim of understanding the possible implications of the production of non-reduced gametes, pollen performance, pollen size and frequency distribution of pollen grains was quantified in the progeny of this cross and the parents. A large polymorphism in pollen grain size was found within the interspecific progeny with higher production of unreduced pollen in triploids (38%) than in diploids (29%). Moreover, using PCR amplification of selected microsatellite loci, while 13.7% of the pollen grains from the diploids showed two alleles, 41.28% of the grains from the triploids amplified two alleles and 5.63% showed up to three alleles. This suggests that the larger pollen grains could correspond to diploid and, in a lower frequency, to triploid pollen. Pollen performance was also affected with lower pollen germination in the hybrid triploids than in both diploid parents. The results confirm a higher percentage of polyploids in the interspecific cross, affecting pollen grain size and pollen performance. The occurrence of unreduced gametes in A. cherimola, A. squamosa and their interspecific progeny that may result in abnormalities of ploidy such as the triploids and tetraploids observed in this study, opens an interesting opportunity to study polyploidy in Annonaceae.
(...)
Polyploidy is believed to be a major mechanism of adaptation and speciation, recognized as a major force in evolution (Van de Peer et al., 2017) and very valuable for crop improvement (Udall and Wendel, 2006; Mason, 2016). Polyploidy is more common in plants than in animals. It is estimated that between 30 and 70% of extant flowering plant species are polyploids (...)"
More I will not paste here. The best is to study the complete report by yourself!
Bytheway...to my new hybridizations of this year there is again a small setback. One of the ovaries, which took weeks to show that pollination was successful, has now decided to dry out after some growth. Another one is still in good shape, I hope it stays that way. Last year, such an ovary grew into a strongly deformed fruit, which is another sign of an unusual way of embryo formation. Unfortunately this fruit dried up in centimeter size and still hangs on the tree like a mummy. I have pictures, but I do not want to overload this post!
keep us postedYes I will share any news here. Soon I will harvest the first Pawpaw fruit which flower has polinated with Cherimoya pollen. From this fruit and fromthe seeds I will share pictures.
Is there a way to genetically test the leaf? Maybe some university nearby that has something that could count the chromosomes?Certainly there are institutes and universities here that could carry out a genetic analysis. Years ago, I wanted to have one done on a very interesting Vitis hybrid, which I created by open pollination, and I have contacted several institutions. Most of them refused, because they are busy with their own work, and the few who would have done it, demanded unreasonably much money. So I prefer to wait until I can see from other characteristics whether I have achieved hybrids or not. And if it worked, the chromosome set has to be doubled, because of the different chromosome sets of Cherimoya and Pawpaw.
This is super exciting stuff. Thank you for doing this experiment.Thank you - you are welcome! I have to admit, it is also fun and all objections, comments and suggestions are inspiring and absolutely valuable for the evaluation and further development of this experiment!
That delay in fruit-set development is very interesting!Interesting is also your observation and I think this does not contradict my observation, because the majority of Cherimoya flowers pollinated with Pawpaw pollen reacts in principle as u wrote, a very short time passes, mostly even shorter than if the flowers had not been pollinated, and the flower dries up and dies, The death of the flower is different and may give an indication whether perhaps genetic processes have already started or not. Some flowers dry out very quickly and evenly, i.e. petals and base of fruit, and some flowers first let the three petals dry out - like a dry mummy, which often remains loose at the base of fruit - and then dry out later with a little delay.
I don't recall having observed that.
I did sometimes observe the opposite, where foreign pollinations would be rejected so fast that there seemed to be an allergic reaction.
