Author Topic: hybrids with precocious Poncirus  (Read 14911 times)

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2020, 06:37:37 PM »
Last spring I pollinated 11 castrated flowers of FD by pollen of this "1year precocious Poncirus", it gave 2 fruits with 14 seeds in total. 5 seeds gave two seedlings each, 7 were monoembryonic.
All seedlings except one have crooked thorns, some are rather dwarf. The one without contorted stem is the strongest, for the moment it is around 10 cm high. My self pollinated FD usually have a very high percent of contorted seedlings.
I also pollinated a dozen of 5star citrumelo flowers with the same pollen; 3 fruits were formed with 22 seeds  in total, I have now all 22 germinated.
Probably in the autumn we shall know if this precocious trait has a simple mode of inheritance or not.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

hardyvermont

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2020, 10:18:41 PM »
It does not appear that the Precocious Poncirus when used as a male causes the offspring to bloom as early as the parent.  Will take a few more years to learn if it may cause slightly earlier blooming, or if 1/4 of the F2 will bloom as early as Precocious.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2020, 03:55:46 AM »
It does not appear that the Precocious Poncirus when used as a male causes the offspring to bloom as early as the parent. 
Why do you think so? Some experience?
 In the case of Chinese  precocious strain the trait was not heriditable at all, probably too many genes involved.
Best regards,
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Walt

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2020, 11:59:34 AM »
I
n the Laaz case, if I understand correctly, his first precocious tree was a chance seedling.  It is not likely that such a case was due to more than a couple genes.  Single gene is most likely.  It is not dominant, if I am to believe everything in this discussion, which I do.  So single recessive gene still seems most likely to me.
So why hasn't anybody taken it to the F2?  Lack of time and space, I guess.  And lack of enough people interested in doing citrus breeding.  I'm not the only one here interested in doing citrus breeding.  I think there are 10 or more, but mostly small scale.  And only 4 trying on a large scale, that I know of, but there might be several quiet ones too.
And of course, citrus breeding runs into seedlings mostly being nucellar in most crosses.  But those interested in breeding know about that, and how to get around it.

I'll be 70 in March, so I'm very interested in shortening generation time.  I want to squeeze in 10 more generations of citrus breeding.  More would be better.
My mother lacked 2 weeks of living 100 years, so I may get 10 generations yet.  But no one knows if they will live til sundown.  We take what we get and make the most of it.
I had a good friend, an iris breeder after he retired, who planted his last seeds at the age of 101.  He never lived to see them bloom, but he had seen several generations of his iris seedlings bloom.  No regrets.

Walt

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2020, 12:08:13 PM »
Ilya.  Mostly Laaz precocious is used as a pollen parent, as it is not reported to give zygotic seedlings.  I found that some seeds from Laaz were monozygotic, 2 out of 3.  So it might give some zygotic seedlings.  Until we have data, all that can be said for sure is that as a pollen parent, it doesn't give precocious seedlings.  I EXPECT the same would be true as seed parent if it gives hybrid seedlings at all.  But for now, I have seen no reports of it giving hybrid seedlings.
If anyone does have such experience, or has seen published reports, please post them.

hardyvermont

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2020, 01:32:32 PM »
It does not appear that the Precocious Poncirus when used as a male causes the offspring to bloom as early as the parent. 
Why do you think so? Some experience?
 In the case of Chinese  precocious strain the trait was not heriditable at all, probably too many genes involved.
Yes, my experiences. 

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2020, 01:52:42 PM »
Hardyvermont, very interesting, what kind of cross have you made? With citrus or another poncirus? Are you sure to produce hybrid zygotes?

It seems there are at least two other cases of precocious poncirus arising spontaneously.
Indian strain   and Japanese one.
In the latter case it was produced by inbred selfing and  a conclusion was that
"the findings suggest that the precocious flowering is controlled by recessive genes present heterozygously in normal trifoliate orange".
Best regards,
                       Ilya

hardyvermont

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2020, 02:40:30 PM »
Hardyvermont, very interesting, what kind of cross have you made? With citrus or another poncirus? Are you sure to produce hybrid zygotes?

It seems there are at least two other cases of precocious poncirus arising spontaneously.
Indian strain   and Japanese one.
In the latter case it was produced by inbred selfing and  a conclusion was that
"the findings suggest that the precocious flowering is controlled by recessive genes present heterozygously in normal trifoliate orange".
Yes, hybrids produced, basing this on trifoliate offspring of satsuma and others. 

Walt

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2020, 04:36:04 PM »
Do you still have any of the hybrids?  Have you tried growing an F2 population or backcrossing to the precocious trifoliate?
If the hybrids still exist, I am interested in scions and/or seeds.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2020, 06:19:03 PM »
Interesting, so this trait is either simply recessive or polygenic.
It could be worth to create a tetraploid form of precocious poncirus. With some luck its triploid progeny could still be precocious.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

hardyvermont

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2020, 09:08:57 PM »
Do you still have any of the hybrids?  Have you tried growing an F2 population or backcrossing to the precocious trifoliate?
If the hybrids still exist, I am interested in scions and/or seeds.
No flowers yet on F1, when that happens will there will be multiple crosses.  Growing them with one leader to speed up maturity, hopefully this spring or next will have flowers.

Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2020, 03:35:25 AM »
This trait can be specific for poncirus, arising under inbreeding  growth depression.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Till

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2020, 04:14:12 PM »
I have pollinated Kucle with precocious Poncirus. Kucle is very susceptable to Poncirus pollen and 100% monoembryonic and zygotic. But fruits are not yet ripe. I keep you updated.

Perplexed

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2021, 12:13:02 AM »
Sorry to bump a necro but, any updates on the cross Till?

Walt

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2021, 03:07:58 PM »
Likewise any update Hardyvermont?

hardyvermont

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2021, 10:05:18 PM »
Likewise any update Hardyvermont?
One cross with precocious bloomed after three years, this year a second hybrid at four.  F2 of first cross looks like segregation.  The cross was blood orange x precocious.  May know in a couple years if precocious is simple recessive.   

Perplexed

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2021, 10:23:11 PM »
Was precocious poncirus the pollen parent?

hardyvermont

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2021, 02:58:51 AM »
Was precocious poncirus the pollen parent?
Yes

Walt

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2021, 03:33:42 PM »
Good job.  Good, useful information, though it is still incomplete, and may remain incomplete for more years.
Thank you.

Perplexed

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2021, 10:07:18 PM »
Has anyone tried using precocious poncirus as the female parent?

Till

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2021, 03:46:58 PM »
My cross of Kucle x precocious Poncirus did lead to hybrid offspring. I do not know for sure why. There is only one very tiny seedling with trifoliate leaves. It does not want to grow.
I also tried to cross a Sanford Segentrange (no name) with precocious Poncirus. Most seeds were monoembryonic. I got only a few seedlings from this cross and they seem to be different. I will see if one of them blooms the following spring.
So no results up to know.
Many other crosses with precocious Poncirus failed because I did not have fruit set or fruits were dropped at an early stage. Seems to be a general problem not directly related to the type of pollen used.
I have a monoembryonic Poncirus with zygotic seeds. I shall try to pollinate it with precocious Poncirus the next year. I have not done it so far because I was too much frustrated by the slow growth of precocious Poncirus and was keen on trying other combinations (crosses with Trifeola, Sanford Curafora and Rusk).

I sometimes think that precocious Poncirus is a dead end. It blooms early but it has weak roots and grows so slowly under my conditions that fruit set on normal Poncirus seedlings seems to be earlier than on precocious Poncirus. Nontheless, I am very much interested in results of your experiments.

Walt

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2021, 05:50:24 PM »
I recently got precocious trifoliata.  Since you say it has weak roots, I'll try grafting it on regular trifoliata.  I was thinking of doing that anyway.  I want to make crosses with it and see how the F2 generation does.

Till

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2021, 05:37:27 PM »
Walt, an interesting experiment would also be to graft juvenile seedlings on precocious Poncirus and see if that speeds up blooming. I tried it but all experiments failt because the precocious Poncirus plants used died or grafts did not take. It sometimes seems that my experiments are bedeviled. Many experiments I believed to be best failed while I had unexpected success in experiments (mainly crosses) in which I did not really believe. My success rate in grafting is nearly 100%. I could produce wide crosses with Rosaceae. Still grafting onto precocious Poncirus was in vain up to now.
Seems to be the job of others to try it. Or I should not give up that early. I do not know.


Ilya11

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2021, 06:11:58 PM »
I noticed some strange incompatibility of precocious poncirus.
It can be grafted and successfully grown on standard poncirus roots, but  when  grafted to 5star citrumelo, grows several centimeters before dropping its leaves. I have such graft that is dormant already  for two years.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Till

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Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2021, 04:59:17 PM »
Interesting.

 

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