Author Topic: Fukushu X PT seed  (Read 902 times)

orangedays

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Fukushu X PT seed
« on: September 02, 2021, 05:09:48 PM »
Here are a couple of images of seed from a Fukushu X PT cross I made this spring.  I peeled the seed coat off to increase the speed of germination.  It's interesting to see the color differences in the embryos. Someone on this forum had indicated there would be a color difference if the PT parent has tan seed and the citrus parent's seed are dark green. I am hoping/guessing the lighter colored embryo's are the crosses and the darker green are the apomictic embryo's.

The is the second batch of seed I prepared this way. Many of the seed from the first batch have germinated eight days later, the shoots are still too small to see if any have trifoliate leaves.






tedburn

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2021, 01:31:25 AM »
interesting project, good luck for nice seedlings and frosthardy plants , keep us updated  ;)

orangedays

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2021, 07:32:49 PM »
Thanks Tedburn.  I hope to keep these alive so there is something to tell.  Some of the seedlings are showing the PT origin.  The crosses seem to be growing faster than the clones. I think there will be six crosses in this batch.  Hopefully they will survive and grow this winder and next spring I will bud graft them onto an older citrus to see what comes of them. 


vnomonee

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2021, 10:38:03 AM »
Very cool, why aren't there more direct poncirus x kumquat crosses?

I'm going to try pt x meiwa, and pt x hindsii when I get them flowering at the same time. I have a poncirus+ and a precocious poncirus, neither have flowered yet. The precocious should flower next spring.

Walt

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2021, 11:25:39 AM »
They don't have to flower at the same time.  Citrus pollen can be stored for some time,  Keep it cool and dry.

vnomonee

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2021, 02:01:19 PM »
Hello Walt, yes that is true I just lack the experience. Will have to learn how store it successfully when the time comes

orangedays

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2021, 08:05:36 PM »
I also need more experience with storing pollen. I saved some pollen this spring and used it on some kumquats this summer but none of the crosses took. The cross above was done in the spring when both the fukushu and the poncirus trifoliata were blooming. The fukushu bloomed again in July and made and attempt with the stored pollen then, but all the fruit aborted. 

Till

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2021, 05:51:00 AM »
Gratulation, orangedays! The seedlings with their alternate leaves look promising. I tried the same cross but was not successfull. Only nucellar seedlings. You encourage me to try it again.

By the way, the alternate leaves should be a save sign for hybrids in your case beacuse nucellar fukushu seedlings don't habe the feature. I got, however, plenty seedlings of Limequat x Swingle5Star with alterate first leaves. Yet none of them got trifoliate leaves and other signs of hybrid nature so that I believe that some Cirtus varieties besides Poncirus also tend to produce alternate first leaves. I also got Poncirus hybrids without alternate leaves from the cross Chinotto x Poncirus. Some seedlings had two pairs of paired first leaves. Is of cause also untypical for pure Citrus.



it seems that alternate leaves can also occur when you have no hybrids.

orangedays

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 07:47:46 PM »
They are still alive but not doing as well as I hoped. I started with eight and now have only two that are vigorous.  It seems they damped off or something similar happens with the roots. I am trying to rescue three by grafting on to pure fukushu seedlings but I don't hold out much hope. There are three that seem to be healthy, two are tall and one is very small but looks green and healthy so far.  In this case all of the crosses had alternating leaves. I think also the seed color indicates a cross. I made two additional crosses this spring ChangshawXPT, and PTXHamlin.  I will post those results in a separate post to follow.





vnomonee

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2021, 07:57:19 PM »
I can't seem to keep kumquats from seed alive either- also dampening off. Don't have the same issue with other citrus from seed.

But those hybrids look really cool you can definitely see the kumquat influence in the long/narrow middle leaf! Hope you can keep them alive

orangedays

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2021, 08:03:58 PM »






With the changshaw there was also a slight color difference between the peeled seed. I divided the seed according to color. These seed come from 4 fruit and there was a surprising number of pale seed.  So far all the light green seed have trifoliate leaves.  I also make a very few tenuous crosses of hamilin on the PT.  In the spring the winds were high and I found it too dangerous on most days to approach the failing PT limbs in order to apply pollen. Anyway I did harvest fruit and found among the many the tan seed, there were two with a slight off green shade. I planted all the seed from the fruit with the pale green seed, and two came up with a different look. It will be a year before I will be able to distinguish if any of the PT seedlings are crosses but two have much longer middle leaves and are growing more vigorously.

Some one else on this forum that clued me into looking for the color difference in embryo's. Was it you Till?  I had read the  pale embryos are immature. That may be (they seem slower to germinate), but it may also be useful marker for finding hybrids.

Till

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2021, 03:20:44 AM »
Orangedays, could be that I gave the hint to look for seed color. I had a greater number of Calamondin seeds from crosses with Poncirus. Some seeds were pale yellow others green. All were mature. I did not sperate them according to color, though. So I cannot tell if the pale yellow Calamondin seeds were hybdrids. But I think so since all seedlings were either hybrids with trifoliate leaves or they looked exactly like Calamondin (nucellar seedlings). It was interesting that the yellow seeds were in part monoembryonic while Calamondin usually produces a great number of embryos per seed. There were also seeds with a yellow embryo and a number of green embryo in the same seed.

You can by tge way also germinate extremly immature seeds. But it is difficult. I had succes when I placed soft immature seeds (less than half of normal size) of Sanford Curafora on glas wool soaked with fertilized water and put them under artifical light. The seeds soon turned green and sprooted.

orangedays

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2021, 07:14:52 PM »
Yes it was you! It was the calamondin by PT seed description you provided that got me interested in seed color and convince me to try more crosses with polyembryonic varieties as well. I also noticed that seed with a pale embryo often turns out to be mono embryonic or have few smaller secondary embryos, as if the zygote suppresses the nucellar embryo development.

Its very impressive that you were able to germinate a soft seed. I didn't know it was possible unless in tissue culture.

BorisR

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2021, 07:16:45 AM »
John R. Brown wrote that hybrids of kumquats with PT are not viable. I think I read the same thing in Swingle's articles. This is what we observe when your Fukushi x PT seedlings die. And it is believed that in order to get a hybrid of these species, another kind of intermediary is needed. For example, an orange, as in Thomasville. However, you, orangedays, they are not all seedlings died. Perhaps the claim of non-viability concerns the more common Nagami and Meiwa kumquats, and hybrids with other varieties are able to survive?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 03:38:27 PM by BorisR »

orangedays

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2021, 09:52:50 AM »
I was not aware of this.  There is some question of fukushu being a hybrid of some kind, similar to the calamondin, so maybe the reason lies in that direction. It blooms in the spring unlike my other kumquats which is why I was able to make the cross.  The Thomasville kumquat is reported to be 1/4 PT so there is some success with the cross.  Non-viability may be an exaggeration because all the varieties he tried were not viable as you said.  So far two are still healthy but its early yet.

mikkel

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Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2021, 03:52:39 PM »

 

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