Author Topic: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron  (Read 936 times)

Guanabanus

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Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« on: October 06, 2021, 12:20:33 PM »
Three years ago, a mango grove owner called me to look at his grove, much of which was producing poorly.  He was especially disappointed in a block of several rows of Orange Sherbit, in the ground several years, each tree over 15-feet tall and wide, and healthy looking.  Most OS had produced nothing, and the remaining OS, almost nothing.

When they mentioned that they had been spraying insecticide to kill Sri Lanka Weevils, I recommended that they stop.  Two reasons:  the weevils were causing only minor cosmetic damage, and the insecticide was killing off pollinators (especially flies).

I also recommended fertilizers and nutritional and fungicidal sprays to use.

In 2020, production reportedly (I didn't visit in season) increased on the other varieties, but not a bit on Orange Sherbet.  Same this year.

In 2015 I was hired for just that Summer, to pick the experimental mango grove of Zill High Performance Plants.  I picked the original Orange Sherbet tree, and also a very large Orange Sherbet produced by top-work grafting on an old tree.  Both were highly productive.  They were surrounded by hundreds of other mango varieties.

I have heard reports of other individual, productive Orange Sherbet trees, surrounded by other varieties.  At the grove with a problem, there ARE other varieties in the same field, but....

At this year's "Mango Summit", Dr. Alan Chambers, of the Tropical Research and Extension Center (TREC) in Homestead, reported on genetic research done on the 200 plus varieties of mango at that research station.  When he studied the genetics of many seeds from those trees, he found that many varieties had produced large numbers of selfs, while others had produced almost no selfs, instead favoring outcrosses.  Some of these, that favored pollen other than their own, were also picky about which other variety of pollen that was accepted.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 02:46:05 PM by Guanabanus »
Har

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2021, 12:38:50 PM »
Also at the Mango Summit, and elsewhere, I heard indications that we need to bump up target amounts of Boron (carefully!  Toxicity is worse than deficiency.)  Not only will good Boron nutrition prevent most internal defects of mango pulp, but it can be the difference between non-production and good production.

So I would like to hear which varieties of mango are growing within about 300 feet of your Orange Sherbet tree, and whether or not it has produced well.
[Insects can take pollen over half a mile, but that is less often.]

I would also like to hear about the Boron content of your fast-release or slow-release granular fertilizers, and of your nutritional sprays and drenches.

Zinc levels are also important to fruit set.

Also relevant would be lab results for leaf tissue of Orange Sherbet, or of soil tests.

I will post more details as I find them.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 02:47:18 PM by Guanabanus »
Har

roblack

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2021, 12:49:41 PM »
Interesting info Har, thanks!

I have 2 orange sherbets, on opposite ends of a fence line, with guava, coco cream, ndm4, and kesar in between, with m4, sweet tart, glenn, and sugar loaf nearby.

One OS was put in ground about a year ago, and is over 8 feet tall. The other was from a graft on the ndm4, that has become a nice little tree in its own right, but has not flowered yet.

Hitting both with boron.

Vegetative growth looks great, with no problems noted and good growth.

Will report on flowering, productivity, and hopefully fruit quality this coming season.


cbss_daviefl

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2021, 01:19:18 PM »
My tree is around 6ft tall and 8ft wide growing in the shade of a large peach cobbler mango. It produced 25+ fruits this year. I am using Helena 8-2-12.

My soil analysis is here:
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=22559.msg376291#msg376291

Last time I ordered fertilizer, I was told the mix you recommended is no longer available and they switched me to this, which has more boron:



Click on my profile to see the other varieties I have planted.

Brandon

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2021, 01:31:16 PM »
At the grove I visited in 2019, the same field that has the rows of Orange Sherbet, also has Lemon Zest (moderately productive in 2019), Pram Kai Mea (good production each year), and Him Sagar (younger trees, with low production).

The leaf analysis test, June 2019, done by Waters Agricultural Laboratories, for this field mixed these varieties together in the same sample.  Boron was at 85 ppm (parts per million) which supposedly is good.  The other fields were lower.  The soil from this field was not tested; soil from other fields tested on same farm ranged from 1.1 to 1.4 lbs/acre.

Leaf analysis Zinc was at 15 ppm, which is low.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 03:22:28 PM by Guanabanus »
Har

JoeP450

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2021, 01:31:50 PM »
Hey Har,

Is the genetic research published in a scientific journal? Where can I find this research to read?

Thanks,

Joe

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2021, 03:16:55 PM »
Brandon,

Thank you.  That new Promate Premium 8-2-12 does look good, with 0.31 Boron.

So, to summarize, your highly productive Orange Sherbet is nearest a large Peach Cobbler mango tree, within a collection of about 40 mango varieties.
The soil test, done by Spectrum Analytics, shows Boron at 1.3 m3-ppm (that lab recommends 1.7-2.6 m3-ppm), and Zinc at 18 (they recommend 4-11).

Different labs use different tests, different calibration soils, and different written measurements--- hard to compare.
Har

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2021, 03:18:34 PM »
Joe,

Proceedings of the Florida State Horticultural Society for 2021.  I don't know if it is out yet--- I didn't sign up for it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 02:49:14 PM by Guanabanus »
Har

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2021, 05:22:39 PM »
A friend near me has Sweet Tart, Ugly Betty, Ice Cream, Valencia Pride, and Jakarta, and the neighbors have huge Haden Seedlings,  About three years ago, an Orange Sherbet was added near the Ice Cream mango, and is now almost 5-feet tall and wide, and produced half-a-dozen fruits this year.

Not tested for Boron or Zinc.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 02:50:32 PM by Guanabanus »
Har

cbss_daviefl

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2021, 06:08:59 PM »
Brandon,

Thank you.  That new Promate Premium 8-2-12 does look good, with 0.31 Boron.

So, to summarize, your highly productive Orange Sherbet is nearest a large Peach Cobbler mango tree, within a collection of about 40 mango varieties.
The soil test, done by Spectrum Analytics, shows Boron at 1.3 m3-ppm (that lab recommends 1.7-2.6 m3-ppm), and Zinc at 18 (they recommend 4-11).

Different labs use different tests, different calibration soils, and different written measurements--- hard to compare.

Peach cobbler to the south (branches touching),  fruit punch to the east, glenn to the west (40 ft away), a row to the east, super julie, triple sec, m4. Not sure how helpful that is in your search for a pollinator but it says having a melting pot of varieties may benefit picky producers.
Brandon

weiss613

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2021, 11:14:27 AM »
I have had no insecurities of any feature about my 26 OS trees so far. In this past 2021 season I had 3 of the 4 trees that were over 3 years in the ground fruit. The amount of fruit produced by those 3 that Fruited was satisfactory. In 2022 all 26 have a green light to have babies. And right up to the time those OS fruit were picked I had been fertigating those trees 1X a month with Dyna-Gro’s Foliage Pro 9-3-6 at a rate ranging from 3 to 6 times the recommended rate. Analysis of this liquid fertilizer will be attached below as a photo.
I stopped fertilizing any of my trees that will be over 3 years old during the 2022 season the beginning of July because they will be allowed to produce fruit. I don’t want them to have any nitrogen and I wanted the summer rains to wash out what they had been sitting in their whole lives in my ground. They were absolutely green and healthy as humanly made possible at that point and sometimes that happiness is not conducive to the stresses they need to go through to reproduce themselves by making babies(fruit). All my trees that will be less than 3 years in ground next summer 2022 will continue to get pushed by this fertilizer. I do all this for fun cause I love experimenting.
The second part of this experiment was I did not prune a single tip on any of the trees or lower and shape them that are over 3 years old and I will allow to fruit in 2022. But if any trees overlapped on the sides I did make some space so light could get in. My guess/prediction/hope is a scary massive amount of fruit. Producing trees in 2022 will be about 210. Will let you know how this works out. At the end of the 2022 season I plan on leveling out every tree at 6 feet and pruning all around them dramatically. So 2023 will be a resting year for any tree that was allowed to fruit up to 2022. The summer of 2023 if no fruit pop out on those 210 mutilated trees the youngins that can produce includes mostly Sugarloafs and Lemon Zests and Pineapples Pleasures. PS my OS trees are surrounded by very close multiple varieties of mango trees. <br /><br />
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 11:16:40 AM by weiss613 »

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2021, 03:03:32 PM »
Weiss,
So the concentration of Boron is very low (0,01) in your liquid fertilizer, but is readily available and applied frequently, and appears to be working.

The inclusion of Cobalt and Nickel is very interesting.
Har

weiss613

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2021, 12:37:33 AM »
But I said I use 3-6 times the recommended dose!!

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2021, 09:08:50 AM »
Helena 8-2-12.  I thought we were to shy away from any nitrogen ferts for mangos?

cbss_daviefl

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2021, 10:16:42 AM »
Maybe when they reach a mature size. Even then, addition of nitrogen at flowering has shown in studies to increase fruitset but too much causes a decrease in quality. I tend to use less fert than my trees need and high rainfall washes out my soil so not an issue for me.
Helena 8-2-12.  I thought we were to shy away from any nitrogen ferts for mangos?
Brandon

Guanabanus

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2021, 08:17:27 PM »
The non-productive Orange Sherbet grove was recently leaf-tissue tested.

Boron 44 parts per million,
Zinc 21 ppm,
Iron 36 ppm.

I am still interested in hearing more about anyone's big-enough-to-produce Orange Sherbit trees!
Har

roblack

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2021, 08:28:48 PM »
Ours is probably "big enough to produce" at around 9 feet and fairly bushy. Nice sized trunk. Flowered last year, but dropped fruit and none held on long.

Lightly fertilized (very little N), and did add some boron a few weeks ago.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 11:57:45 AM by roblack »

EddieF

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2021, 10:58:47 AM »
Is desired Boron range discussed here only for orange sherbet?
Thanks,
Ed

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Re: Orange Sherbet productivity issues: cross pollination and Boron
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2021, 07:11:31 PM »
Is desired Boron range discussed here only for orange sherbet?
Thanks,
Ed
I think a better question might be. Is this mostly an issue for South Florida.


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