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Messages - hardyvermont

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Southeastern Citrus Expo
« on: November 26, 2023, 03:10:57 PM »
Thank you sir! I'm so happy that recordings of the presentations are now being made. I have been 2 of these, and I was always annoyed when I missed one because I was late or speaking to other attendees...
It great to be able to go back and find out what I missed the first time. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Southeastern Citrus Expo
« on: November 25, 2023, 10:37:57 AM »
This year's talks were recorded.  Some of the topics are:
Dr. Juan Carlos Melgar, Clemson U - Winners and Losers from the 2022 Christmas freeze. 
Hershell Boyd, Madison Citrus - From Zero to 200 Citrus Varieties in 2 Years. 
2023 SE Citrus Expo - Confessions of Certified Citruholics 
Many thanks to Derick Nantz for his efforts.


Does anyone know where the information about seed grafting method is located?

On the old forum there was a topic about grafting a sprouted seed onto a rootstock. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: August 17, 2023, 10:20:37 AM »
Does someone know what causes the leaf stem/veins to turn red like this?

It happens on some of my rooted poncirus cuttings:

What is the current situation?  Were you growing these plants under lights set for a long day and then changed to fewer hours/natural light?  This occurred on some of my 3/4 poncirus hybrids. Change in day length appeared to turn plants dormant.  Poncirus leaves frequently turn color before they fall.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Prague bark damage, sun scald?
« on: June 13, 2023, 03:10:42 PM »
 Diluted latex with water sounds like a great idea.  I am going to try it too.  Will paint the bottom few inches of some trees which have lost all bark from the winter events, will try bridge grafting and inarching.

I think those are juvenile leaves.

From the Southeastern Citrus Expo

 "Dr. Christopher Vincent, Associate Professor Horticultural Sciences University of Florida, will share his research on the effects of water and shade on citrus health, citrus greening, and other citrus growing challenges."

He discussed shade on citrus production.  It is a complicated topic, photosynthesis comes to an intermittent stop because of moisture loss in full sun.  When stomata are open, CO2 can enter the leaf, but moisture can leave.  So stomata close to keep moisture in.  It cycles.  Spraying a light blocking film on the leaves improved growth. 

Thank you for creating this resource. 

10 Degree Tangerine 3-3 died at 9 F. -12.8 C
10 Degree Tangerine 2-2 survived
CiClem 10 is approximately as hardy as 2-2
Curafora barely survived

Thanks! I'll get those added once I'm back at my computer. Any idea on if any of them give much zygotic seed?

Part of my motivation here is the fact that precious few cold hardy citrus also produce mostly zygotic seeds. There are a lot of hardy citrus, but almost all of them are basically dead ends when it comes to breeding. Identifying the ones that are both cold hardy and zygotic, and creating a reference for them, is something I've noticed is weirdly lacking on the forum and on the internet in general.
3-3 and Curafora made trifoliate leaves after being crossed with poncirus.  No idea how zygotic.  The other two have never born fruit.

Thank you for creating this resource. 

10 Degree Tangerine 3-3 died at 9 F. -12.8 C
10 Degree Tangerine 2-2 survived
CiClem 10 is approximately as hardy as 2-2
Curafora barely survived

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: To protect or not to protect
« on: May 05, 2023, 04:30:55 PM »
"But would there be a benefit to keeping them uncovered and able to photosynthesize as long as temperatures were mild, as they usually are in a maritime climate, let's say in the range of 25 to 50 F which is the typical range. It could even be above freezing for weeks at a time."

That is frequently the weather in Zone 8a.  My observation is that if there is a benefit from uncovering and recovering it is minimal and given the amount of work required, not worth it.

Fruit of Owari from late blooms were edible when the tree was uncovered in the spring.  I don't know how edible it was but if a plant is dormant, wouldn't the fruit be dormant, and then ripen when warmth and light returns. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: To protect or not to protect
« on: May 05, 2023, 03:35:59 PM »
Citrus can be covered with a tarp for the winter and left that way for months without damage.  They don't have to be repeatedly covered and uncovered.  This has been discussed here and in the older forum a few times. 
However, if there is a heavy snow on the tarp it can can break the underlying branches unless there is some additional support.

A tree in Massachusetts kept under a tarp and warmed with aquarium heater in a water barrel kept fruit that were found to be
edible when uncovered in the spring.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Timeline for fruit
« on: April 26, 2023, 08:33:40 PM »
If I have an Owari Satsuma outside when does it have to bloom in order to have ripe fruit by Thanksgiving?  What temp does it need to produce flowers and bloom?

Mike Adams
Owari blooming now in the Southeast will have ripe fruit by Thanksgiving. 

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Poncirus
« on: April 25, 2023, 01:06:58 PM »
I think "orange" fits well for Poncirus. I have let the juice stand for one night in an open glas, then threw away the bottom fraction and made lemonade from the rest of the juice. It tasted primarily orange-like, not like a lemon (by the way better than both).

I ask myself though how it happend that the overall bad taste of Poncirus developed. What was its evolutionary advantage? What kind of animals love exactly that taste? I have picked up somewhere that the taste is designed for antelopes. Can that be true?
Well, animals sometimes have a very different taste from ourselves. Rabbits like bitter meadow. Many animals eat conifers. ... It could also be that some animals that are ruminants find fresh poncirus fruits just acceptable but love the taste of fermented fruits - I mean when they eat them a second time (ruminated). As I wrote above the bad flavour of Poncirus vaporizes over night totally (in case of better tasting fruits) or at least largely (in case of bad tasting fruits). The chemical changes in a rumina will be much greater.
Interesting speculation about antelopes Till.  Fruit needs to pass through the body and survive, or partially eaten and some seed survive.  .  Transport of seeds by animals is called zoochory. I can't find specific information about citrus zoochory.  Speculating on poncirus, especially with the large number of thorns, it doesn't want it's fruit to be eaten before the seed is ripe, thorns protect the fruit and the tree.  When the fruit are ripe, they drop to the ground and are more readily available.  The fruit resins which may keep the fruit from rotting degrade, and the fruit could become more palatable.  Some animals that eat citrus are rats, monkeys, red panda, some bird species. 

None of the trees described here were protected except US 119.   

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus damage after freeze
« on: April 14, 2023, 04:58:52 PM »
8 F, 13 C was not cold enough to differentiate a lot between most hardy citrus.  Both types of 10 Degree Tangerine appear to be more sensitive to the cold than expected, leaves curled more than most.  Brown Select, Changsha, Keraji appear to have done well.  Sugar Belle will probably lose its leaves, but seems to have survived.
As Millet said, more time was needed to find the true amount of damage, which was much worse than initially appeared.  Posted elsewhere on this forum are the evaluations.

Cold Hardiness results, low of 9F. -13C:
Bloomsweet  High grafted and some poncirus growth allowed below.
Brown Select
US 119

A lot of damage
Keraji, one larger tree dead.  Another will recover
10 Degree 3-3

In better shape, minimal or no damage
10 Degree 2-2
CiClem 10
Ventura Lemondarin
Bishop 852

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: U.S. 119...who is growing it?
« on: April 14, 2023, 03:58:59 PM »
My US 119 died.  It was covered with a tarp but otherwise not protected. It was planted last summer so was just a couple feet tall.  Low was about 9 F, -13 C. Unknown what temperature the plant endured, it was surprising that the ground did not release sufficient heat for a relatively cold hardy plant to survive. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 28, 2023, 09:01:50 PM »
Leaves are thick and serrate, maybe tetraploid?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Owari Satsuma
« on: March 08, 2023, 04:02:35 PM »
An Owari Satsuma growing in the ground in zone 8a......when does it usually start bearing new leaves in the spring and when can i roughly expect to pick the fruit in the fall to eat?  Thank you.

Mike Adams
Owari are starting to bloom now.  They can be eaten with a green skin in October, ripe from early November until around Christmas. They are best around Thanksgiving.  It needs to be protected in zone 8a.  A few later blossoms can extend the season

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: 24 hours of light
« on: January 31, 2023, 11:27:09 PM »
Could try green bulbs.
Plants do not utilize the green portion of the visible light spectrum as much as it does on the red or blue/violet end.
So theoretically, a green bulb would disturb the plant less than a white, red, or blu/violet bulb would.

Plants are green because they do not use green light.  Putting green light on a plant will not give it the energy it needs to grow.  Citrus needs to rest.  Long term exposure to 24 hour light is harmful. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Viability of seeds from frozen fruit
« on: January 17, 2023, 01:48:14 AM »
There is research on citrus seed viability after freezing.  Less viability with more cold.  I doubt that seed is viable from that depth of cold.  Nevertheless, I planted seed of a fruit that was missed before the cold.  Nothing to lose. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: looking for most cold hardy poncirus trifoliata
« on: January 15, 2023, 11:55:10 AM »
Hello, I am in a zone 5b part of michigan and want to grow citrus. I read that FD can handle -20c which is about the average winter low here. I would prefer to not have to add extra winter protection. I am wondering if there is a form of poncirus trifoliata that can handle a few degrees colder so I have a little more wiggle room in terms of cold tolerance.
I grew Poncirus in Vermont.  There is a posting somewhere of someone growing it in zone 4 with frost cloth.  It is not the cold that kills it, but wind and winter sun.  If you can place it out of the wind and in the shade in winter it will survive. 

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