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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hybrids
« on: November 26, 2021, 05:37:25 PM »
You might want to grow multiple seeds from the hybrid. I would expect if you grow enough of them, at least one of them should result in elimination of the unsavory poncirus taste. That is assuming that the genes behave as normal dominant/recessive pairs. I believe how gene expression works in citrus is a little more complicated.

Let B represent bad taste, and b represent lack of bad taste.
Also let C represent cold hardiness and c represent lack of cold hardiness. B is dominant over b which is recessive.

the first cross was the poncirus with the pure pomelo
BB CC x bb cc = Bb Cc

next you obtained a zygotic seed from the resulting previous hybrid
Bb Cc x Bb Cc =

these are the statistical probabilities:
BB cc
Bb Cc
Bb cC
Bb cc
bB Cc
bB cC
bB cc
bb CC
bb Cc
bb cC
bb cc

only the last 4 possibilities will not have the bad poncirus taste. 4 out of 12 is a 1 in 4 probability. Out of that 1 in 4, 1 in 4 will not really have any cold hardiness. Half will have moderate cold hardiness, like the hybrid parent, and the remaining 1 out of 4 will have superior cold hardiness, better than the parent. That means there will be a 1 out of 16 chance the offspring (assuming they are all zygotic) will both lack a bad taste and also be more cold hardy than the first generation hybrid.
This is probably oversimplified, of course.

what you have now would probably be more like a Bb CC type.

I apologize for hijacking your thread if theory is not what you wanted the discussion to focus on.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hybrids
« on: November 25, 2021, 10:58:14 PM »
From research I've looked into in the past, there's probably a higher than 50 percent chance the seedling you grew was nucellar, so it may be an exact clone of the original parent hybrid. But there's also a fair chance, maybe somewhere between 20 to 40 percent, that the seedling could have been zygotic (probably resulting from hermaphroditic sexual reproduction. If that's the case there is a chance the genes might get scrambled around to improve characteristics of edibility and cold hardiness. But even those chances of an improvement are probably 1 out of 4, or 1 out of 8 (I would guess, from apply basic statistics to how dominant/recessive gene pairs work). I know this is very speculative but maybe that will give you some small idea of what could be happening here and the chances of any change from what you did here.

I do find it very interesting that you chose to use an actual pomelo in your (original) cross.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: November 11, 2021, 12:20:13 AM »
Woodlanders ichang papeda is seed-grown, would be a gamble but I guess that's a way.
If the Ichang papeda crossed with something else, I think it would be obvious from the leaves and fruits that it was not Ichang papeda. Ichang papeda has very symmetrically sized leaves when it comes to the winged petioles.
I believe Ichang papeda is very zygotic (seeds resulting from sexual recombination), but assuming the plant crossed with itself, I would expect it to come out mostly true to seed.

Of course my personal experience of Ichang papeda plants not seeming to be very cold tolerant might counter that theory.

If this species was as cold tolerant as everyone else seems to observe, then I think it would have a lot of potential for breeding, judging by the quality of what I've tasted from the fruits. Especially anyone specifically trying to breed something with more of a lemon or lime flavor rather than "orange" flavor. Ichang papeda only takes one cross with something else to get something edible. Poncirus trifoliata, on the other hand, takes two or three. I'm going to say Ichang papeda is probably on about the same level of edibility as a Thomasville citrangequat, the best poncirus hybrid I've tasted. Just my personal opinion. (I'd imagine many would say the Thomasville citrangequat is a little bit better)
It's extremely rare for poncirus to cross just one time and result in something that is possible for anyone to eat. US-852 citrandarin and Dunstan citrumelo might be the best two. Still some bad poncirus flavor but some people can manage to eat them without too much problem. (I personally have not had an opportunity to taste either yet, but am going by the reports of others)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: November 09, 2021, 11:16:36 PM »
Only problem is finding an pure ichang papeda to be the female parent...
There's a very big bush-tree in the Hoyt Arboretum in Portland, OR, right up against the side of the visitor center.
I can tell you it grows very easily from cuttings.

For those in SC, Woodlanders sometimes has some, although they're prohibited from selling to you if you're in GA.

Keraji seems pretty promising too. Maybe you could try using Keraji to pollinate a zygotic selection of poncirus hybrid and hope for the best.
Loch Laurel sells Keraji but they do not do mail order.

I looked at pictures of Bendizao on a Chinese site. It looked like a slightly more yellowish color mandarin, like Satsuma, the color of the interior appeared a little more darker orange and watery-juicy like a regular conventional mandarin, and it looked like from the picture that the peel was tight and thinner and would not so easily come off.

The appearance of the inside and the thin tight peel could suggest some parentage from Changsha mandarin, perhaps. The size of Bendizao mandarins are small and delicate, suggesting it might have parentage from a small size mandarin.

From the looks of the fruit I would infer that its distant ancestry is mostly regular mandarin, with definitely a little bit of pomelo (not uncommon for many mandarin varieties in Asia), but it definitely did not descend from any type of orange. The tight peel suggests that the parents were probably not a Satsuma or Kishu type mandarin.
I'm just not seeing any characteristic traits that might suggest Yuzu parentage, although Changsha mandarin parentage is possible.
Changsha is a deeper color orange though so it would not have gotten its color from that.

If it can really survive -10°C, that would probably make it very comparable to Keraji mandarin, and if this is really true, I think this mandarin variety may hold a lot of potential.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: November 09, 2021, 01:29:36 AM »
I'm in zone 8a in the US, at a similar latitude to you (well maybe just a little bit less far north than Mühlacker).
I have multiple varieties that have been in the ground for 3 years and none of them have fruited yet. Well, only two (the Sudachi and Keraji) of them have seemed to begin to form just the tiniest beginnings of little fruits, but they never ripened in time and eventually fell off.
Of course something hardier like citrange might behave a little different. My Dunstan citrumelo has a reached a fairly medium size and still no appearance of fruits. But grapefruits are known to take much longer until they begin producing fruit.

Due to your more continental location, the summers where you are do just get a little bit warmer than where I am. About only 2 degrees F (just a little bit more than 1 degree C) but that can make a difference. Maybe your plants put on more growth during the growing season.

See, I'm growing in the Pacific Northwest region, and while hardy citrus may easily be able to survive through the level of cold there, they just have trouble putting on much growth through the year, due to short duration of the summers and the cool temperatures throughout most of the year, it seems to me.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: November 07, 2021, 06:36:33 PM »
Ichang Papeda isn't hardy enough for my location.
My information tells me it is only hardy down to zone 8a, or possibly even 7b in parts of the deep South (in the US).
I am growing two Ichang papeda plants in the Pacific Northwest, zone 8a, and they do not seem to be doing too well, although they appear to be surviving, in contrast to several Yuzu plants that seem to be doing well. This despite every source I've ever come across saying that Ichang papeda should be able to survive significantly more cold than Yuzu. My Ichang papeda plants have leaves that do not develop a dark green color, and I think it is because they do not like the cool to cold temperatures when they first begin leafing out in the late Spring. I have considered the possibility that the strain of Ichang papeda I have may not be the same variety that exists in other parts of the country, so I can not necessarily be certain of extending my observations to the Ichang papeda species in general. Maybe they just do not like the cooler weather and shorter growing season in this climate. But the Ichang papeda plants in Europe seem to be growing quite well, so maybe this is not true.

On the other hand, Ichang papeda doesn't have any of the awful flavor of poncirus, and I could even manage to eat the entire fruits, with the peel and all (though of course not the seeds). It seemed to be sour, not fully ripe, low flesh ratio, not much juice, flavor like citron or lemon with some lime, specifically kaffir lime flavor, but also a little reminiscent of Yuzu in a strange sort of way with some deepness, but not that little bit of spiciness that Yuzu has. Not really the best fruit quality but definitely edible. It reminded me very much of a citron, with its softer semi-edible peel and yellow lemon flavor. By comparison, Yuzu has a much more fragrant orange or mandarin orange like flavor.

I'd say that compared to Yuzu, Ichang papeda has a little bit of an overall inferior flavor and fruit quality, but the peel of a fresh Ichang papeda is also very slightly softer and more tender than a fresh Yuzu, although if you eat too much of the peel it can have a little bit of a skunky after-flavor.

It seems to me very few people have ever got the opportunity to actually taste Ichang papeda, so I hope these insights are valuable to some of you.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Arctic Frost Report
« on: November 06, 2021, 11:21:39 PM »
You can also wrap a mesh cage around the plant in a circle and fill it with dead dry leaves. That should help provide some insulation against the cold.
For example chicken wire.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Good source for Yuzuquat?
« on: November 04, 2021, 03:11:24 AM »
Though never having personally tasted it, I'm sure that Yuzuquat would be edible, including the peel. In fact I find the peel of Yuzu to be pretty edible and relatively soft and not too bitter. However, I question what the practical use would be. Although it is not impossible, most people would probably not want to forage on Yuzu fruits eating them out of hand. Rather the peel is useful for culinary purposes, adding flavor, or I'm sure you could candy the peel for a snack if you wanted to. What would the point be? A slightly more cold tolerant version of kumquat?
If you have a Yuzuquat, you cannot just pop them into your mouth because they have seeds. So are you going to cut open the fruit, remove all those seeds, and then eat the fruit in segments with the peel? I guess it is possible but I cannot imagine most people doing that.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Is this a rough lemon?
« on: October 25, 2021, 01:00:34 PM »
The rough lemon I found had a very pleasant fragrant smell to it, like a sour orange, but had too much bitterness inside to eat.

What do they cover them with? Bed sheets? Frost cloth?
I do not think their English skills would have been good enough to tell me, but I would imagine either clear plastic sheet or tarp, something that does not let the wind through.
There is a huge amount of rain over the winter in this climate.

These two trees are growing in someone's backyard in Federal Way, Washington, right next to Decatur High School. (Federal Way is just south of Seattle)
The owners are a Vietnamese couple.

One tree is grapefruit and the other tree is a lemon. They are both pretty big, about 6 feet high.

They said they grew both from seed. They are not on rootstock.

I asked them whether it was a Meyer lemon or a special lemon. They said no, it was just a regular lemon like what you buy in a supermarket, not special. Their language skills were not the best though, maybe they did not know.

They kept it inside the garage for 12 years during each winter before planting it outside. The woman said the trees have only gone through one winter outside so far. Both trees have a frame over them, which they cover during the winter. But they do not use any Christmas string lights.

They also have several small fig trees in their backyard.

The first picture is the grapefruit, the second one is the lemon.

pictures taken October 23, 2021

The location is not too far away from the water of the Puget Sound, and it's in a built-up suburban neighborhood, which probably helps keep the temperatures from dropping too low.

I seem to remember that you asked this same question less than a month ago and I gave you a very detailed answer. That thread seems to have strangely completely disappeared now.

That makes me think, should I bother taking the time to answer this question since this thread might disappear too?

The guy who owns that tree is Dave in Virginia. Hardy citrus experts looking at the video in his YouTube channel identified the fruit as very likely being the citrandarin US-852 (which is a Changsha x trifoliate cross), or it could be a seedling from that.

I previously posted a picture of a fruit on that tree in this thread:
"Citrandarin fruits just starting to change color, in Virginia"

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Results of Citrangequat vs Sudachi Taste test
« on: October 18, 2021, 04:31:32 PM »
I didn't mean that Sudachi really tasted like lime. I meant it is a little lime-like in the same way that Yuzu is a little lime-like, and that combined with the sourness if it is picked green.
Maybe it's more accurate to say it can be used much the same way like lime. There is definitely at least a little hint of lime flavor in there though, but also in addition to that there is something green and unripe that tastes reminiscent of a lime type of flavor.
Of course the flavor overall is much more like a zesty fragrant sour orange.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Results of Citrangequat vs Sudachi Taste test
« on: October 16, 2021, 04:18:55 PM »
Ok, so Today I decided to pick one of my Sudachi and one of my citrangequats to compare since I will be moving in a few years.
Make sure you put a clear label on the plant so the new home owner will know what it is.
If the new owner knows what it is, they are more likely to take care of it or not rip it out. Labels can be made from write-on metal tags.

I find Thomasville to be surprisingly edible for a trifoliate hybrid, very little of the poncirus taste. I can eat them. A little bit of a kumquat mandarin orange and lime-like in a way flavor, not the best quality flavor but satisfactory, you could eat them or find some culinary uses.

Sudachi is higher quality. More lime and Yuzu-like. Its peel is also somewhat edible. Maybe the peel is slightly tougher than citrangequat but also a little better flavor.

Citrangequat is a more vigorous grower than Sudachi, which doesn't seem to have much vigor at all, but in terms of how much cold they can tolerate, I think they seem to be similar. My Sudachi here in zone 8a PNW area seems to be doing just okay and surviving. Even managed to produce a few little fruit druplets, maybe the plant's fruits will be able to ripen in later years when the plant grows bigger.
Maybe citrangequat can tolerate more cold but it will not do well, will suffer some die-back in temperatures colder than what the Sudachi can take.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu seedling growing in Washington state
« on: October 08, 2021, 06:26:38 PM »
Picture taken October 7, 2021

The crushed up leaves smell very pleasantly spicily fragrant, more mild and less harsh than the smell of normal citrus leaves.
I mean I could almost imagine the leaves being used as a perfume ingredient.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu seedling growing in Washington state
« on: October 03, 2021, 04:26:22 PM »
Here's a picture that was taken on September 1, 2021

The Yuzu is getting bigger and growing fast. At the time of this picture it was putting out a new flush of leaf growth.
The trunk seems to be noticeably thickening as well.

I would estimate the plant must be about 3 feet tall right now. (I think plants grow faster when they are growing on their own roots)

Here's the latest update
October 3, 2021

sorry for the low resolution images, was trying to fit 4 images into one picture to help reduce data space

A - tiny keraji seedling
B - Ichang papeda
C - Sudachi
D - ichangquat seedling (regular seedling)

The coloration on the tiny keraji seedling looks green and a very healthy color. However, this seedling just overall does not seem to be putting on any growth. It was the exact same size this time last year. The winters seem to set it back and then it recovers, but it does not seem to be able to grow to a size bigger than it was before. Those little leaves are all new. (There are five leaves, two of them very tiny)

Most of the leaves on the Ichang papeda are still very light in coloration, yellowish-green. I would say more yellow than green though they are still obviously alive. It seems they were never able to green up much since the winter. If you look carefully, there are a small number of newer smaller leaves that are a little bit more green in color but even those leaves do not look a healthy green. There are two of these Ichang papeda plants right next to each other and the leaf coloration on both looks exactly the same. Perhaps this variety begins to put out its new leaf flush too early in the year, when it is still too cold, and so the newer leaves do not develop the most healthy greenish color. When the very small new leaves initially start growing, they are a dark reddish color. I have never observed this growing them inside. It probably is a natural response to growing outside, either to the ultraviolet light of the sun or the cold.

The color of the leaves on the Sudachi look just okay. Not really the healthiest deepest shade of green, but okay, still definitely green and not yellowish. This little plant has not been able to put on much growth. It is a slow grower.

I may be mistaken about this but the Ichangquat seedling has not been able to grow any new leaves. All of those little leaves you see on the seedling are all old, from 3 years ago, the leaves that did not fall off (most of them did). But amazingly those leaves look like a healthy deep green color. It seems obvious those leaves have been able to recover. I think this seedling has almost not been able to put on any new branch growth. Yet the recovery of the leaves and the fact they have fully recovered their color since turning very yellowish during the winter is a good sign.

(This is the normal Ichangquat seedling, not the other one that seems to be hardier that I suspect is a hybrid)

I would say that all four of these are managing to survive, but almost not putting on much growth. Very slow growing. It seems they are marginal growing in this 8a Pacific Northwest climate. None of them were protected or covered this winter.

Bear in mind these are not big plants.
I took some measurements. The tiny keraji seedling is only 2 inches (5 cm), the Ichang papeda is 14 inches high (35-36 cm), the Sudachi is just a little over 16 inches (41 cm) high, and the ichangquat is 13 inches (33 cm) high but very narrow, with only 3 leaves.

The bigger keraji plant (not shown in the 4 images in this post) has one small yellow fruit on it, which seems not to have been able to ripen in time. It is less than an inch in diameter. (I mean it is completely yellow in color, not the slightest hint of orange-yellow)
It is still a small plant, so maybe the fruits will be able to ripen in future years. It is 17 inches (a little over 43 cm) high right now.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: TaiTri
« on: September 06, 2021, 05:08:56 PM »
Your profile says you are on the border of zone 8a/7b in the state of Georgia.

It's really helpful to clarify the growing location when you make these posts so the information will be useful to others.

Here is a update picture of the Bloomsweet. It is growing and starting to reach some size and establish itself.

Here is the very tiny Keraji seedling that has survived in the ground for a few years without protection. It lost its leaves earlier in the year (perhaps due to slugs eating the leaves) but it has now regrown some new leaves. The leaves are small and not too big but look decently healthy. This thing is very small, about an inch, less than two inches high. I'm not sure if it will ever eventually be able to put in some size. It seems to suffer a setback after each winter, but then very late into the season, around late July, it starts to recover but then there is not much growing season time left in the year. It looks about the same now as it did the same time of year last year, and the year before that. But it is amazing such a tiny seedling is surviving and not declining.

Here is the bigger Keraji, more medium sized like something newly planted, that's grafted on rootstock.

It is doing well. It had tiny little fruit druplets begin to form but it looks like most of them dropped off.

pictures taken August 10, 2021

Here is the latest picture of the seedling, August 10, 2021

It's putting on more growth and getting bigger. 18 inches tall now but narrow and lengthy.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Grafting poncirus and flying dragon
« on: July 27, 2021, 01:19:03 AM »
But, what would happen if I put FD on PT rootstock? Would the FD scion have a benching effect and die off or what?
The answer is probably a bit complicated, and a full answer would require a detailed explanation about how and why grafting results in what it does.

I very much doubt grafting FD on PT would result in any more of a dwarfing effect than trying to graft FD on FD.

It might be less heathy because regular PT is faster growing than FD. The rootstock might have some tendency to overgrow the scion, higher likelihood of longer-term incompatibility. But still not terrible since the two are still the same species and would be very compatible in other ways.

It might even grow faster, with regular PT for roots. I don't know. There could be two different competing factors here.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu seedling growing in Washington state
« on: July 01, 2021, 09:11:39 PM »
Here's the Yuzu seedling as of June 29, 2021

The trunk looks like it's gaining some thickness. Now maybe just a little bit thicker than pencil-thickness.

The coloration of the leaves look just okay, not really good and healthy but not too bad either. The older leaves have regained most of their green color back since the winter.

From talking with Nat Bradford, I know Taiwanica can easily survive the border of zone 8a/7b in the US South, and if it does suffer damage it will easily recover, but I'm not sure how it will do in the same zone classification further north in a cooler climate.
You should at least plant it in an optimal spot, not completely out in the open.

I have difficulty imagining it will like zone 7 Germany.
Could probably grow in zone 8a part of Germany, but not 7.

I doubt it's hardier than Yuzu, probably similar.

As for the Citradia, I'd imagine it would have no problem in 7b but not sure about 7a. Might suffer some damage most years but could then recover, due to its sour orange parentage which is pretty vigorous growing.

Disclaimer: I do not grow these two varieties, but have lots of experience growing many others, all different kinds, rare Japanese varieties and strange hybrids, so I think I do have some intuition on this.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Can citrus survive winter without sunlight?
« on: June 28, 2021, 12:48:45 PM »
SoCal, hows the question confusing? Seems pretty direct.
Did you mean you were thinking about putting them in shade during winter, which is 5 months from now?

It's hard to say. Where you are, putting them in shade might protect them from temporary warm spells and coming out of dormancy.
I doubt the small seedlings will be able to survive the cold in a zone 8 winter. Might depend which variety they are and how close to the house they are, and how much they are blocked from exposure to wind, as well as how much growth they manage to put on between now and then.

I don't think the light itself will be beneficial to them at all during this period when there will be times of cold and frost, but sunlight also has heat effects.

Citrus that has entered dormancy does not really grow and I don't think carries out photosynthesis or can use light. It needs to enter dormancy or it will be vulnerable to cold damage.

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