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Messages - 1rainman

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326
I'm guessing one factor is sour or semi sour are more hardy than sweet. So the stuff that survived on its own tend to be lower quality.

Some of these wild oranges I saw may be hybrids. Some of them are oranges others look and taste similar to ugly fruit but less sweet. Like edible grapefruit sweet but not that great. I think that's how most hybrids come out all weird like ugly fruit but I do love ugly fruit.

If you don't know what that is it's a natural hybrid they found growing wild but tastes much like a tangerine on the inside but ugly and disfigured looking.

327
Pagnr where are you located? I used to be an orange juice addict and used to be citrus trees in nearly every yard. Now they are all dead or diseased except stuff grown from seed and those trees can be edible but low quality.

I'm possibly wrong but I think most citrus seeds are self pollinated they just revert back to a more wild state because it's rare to be super sweet and few seeds.

I'm in Florida so it's hard to find any good citrus any more. Though there are some new varieties that are fairly disease resistant.

328
I did a quick Google search. Found this. Someone who actually grew an orange from seed describing exactly what I describe and the person who learned about orange trees in college or by reading books replying that they normally are true to seed. Having tasted some 30 different orange trees grown from seed not once we're they the same. If you plant 50 of them you might get 5 or so as sweet as the parent if it's one of the highly sweet popular varieties. If it's already a wild orange almost all will be like the parent.
https://www.chron.com/life/gardening/article/Will-orange-trees-grown-from-seed-bear-sweet-1549534.php


329
Citrus General Discussion / Re: helpme to ID please
« on: August 05, 2022, 05:57:39 PM »
Calamondin I think.

330
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / Re: Looking for pineapple pups
« on: August 05, 2022, 05:54:45 PM »
A lot of times you can get them free from the store. Winn Dixie used to chop their own pineapples then throw a box of tops in the garbage. Which you could get and plant them all. Have to ask around. I don't know if they still do it. May be restaurants or other places too. They aren't good for growing for food. They produce fruit randomly not very often and I could never tell when it was ripe. Either pick it too young or it roots on the vine. But they are easy to grow in Florida and easy to get tops

331
I lived in Florida my whole life. Grew many orange trees from seed. Sour oranges and regular oranges are exactly the same other than sugar content except the trifoliate orange. Zero commercial citrus is grown from seed. Literally lived around orange groves my whole life. Because the seeds are not the same as the parent. Various oranges are the same species. They bloom different times, have different levels of sweetness and vary in other characteristics. The clones that are commonly grown are literally the best of the best selections.

Now look at grapefruit. They weren't commonly eaten until recently. A non red grapefruit is literally the wild type. So not much variation. There aren't a lot of grapefruit varieties that are wildly different other than recent creations. I can say from countless experience oranges from seed are not as good. I have grown oranges from seed from the store that are sour like a lemon when the fruit it came out of was sweet.

Not saying it's impossible. It's like saying Arnold Schwarzeneggers kids are all going to look the same as him. He's not an average human rather an unusual specimen and children of outliers regress back to the mean.

It's the same with grapes. You get something similar but a grape from seed is rarely going to be as good as chardonnay. They literally have used the same clones for 100 years for that reason. Same with oranges. There's thousands grown and hit with radiation to mutate them to get better varieties.

332
Strange. I have seen a lot of different ones in Florida none of them producing good oranges. Edible maybe but not good like the original. But here Valencia doesn't survive. Too cold sensitive. It's mainly navels, Hamlin's, tangelos. Or was. They are dead now from greening. Spit the seeds out they grow on their own. Fruit ranges from totally sour like a lemon to slightly sour like a sweet grapefruit. None of them like the parent but then those wild ones usually their seeds are true to type

333
Citrus General Discussion / Re: sunburn from led lights?
« on: August 04, 2022, 08:46:02 PM »
My Meyer lemon wasn't on any root stock. Generally root stock would get too big for a container and be root bound. Dwarf Meyer lemon only grew as big as the container and was healthy. Though it got fruit when in a big pot. It's the only one small enough for me to grow in a container and bring indoors.

334
Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to cut mandarin tree
« on: August 04, 2022, 08:42:32 PM »
Swingle is a hybrid if I remember correctly. 3/4 tangerine 1/4 grapefruit. One would expect different shuffling of genes in the offspring. Interesting they are even similar in taste. Grapefruits are generally the hardiest citrus that are good to eat so tangors are top choices to grow combining cold hardiness, disease resistance with good fruit.

335
Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to cut mandarin tree
« on: August 04, 2022, 08:37:49 PM »
I have grown them from seed in Florida and seen countless trees where someone spit out the seed. Haven't seen any good oranges from seed. They all regress. Some are edible but not as good tasting full of seeds, some have excessively thick skin, most are sour. This is from normal oranges bought in a store or picked off a tree.

In Florida they take forever to get fruit. Maybe something is inducing flowering when grown elsewhere. If you root a cutting from a fruit bearing tree it will bear fruit immediately. Root stock is all sour fruit here too.

I do eat wild oranges. They aren't all sour like a lemon, some are, but they are less sweet than normal. Closer to a grapefruits sweetness. I have only seen oranges and grapefruit from seed.lemons, limes, and Valencia grow here but don't do well due to cold sensitivity but seems the climate is getting warmer. Historically we got cold snaps in the winter. So oranges have not been true to seed in my experience but grapefruit have been and no experience with others.

336
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing under LEDís
« on: August 04, 2022, 11:34:04 AM »
You get one of these "tropical" bulbs. It is as close to sunlight as it gets. When I'm up north in the winter I want to bask under this bulb. Then combine it with just a regular full spectrum white flourescent from walmart or wherever to give it a more full spectrum range of light. Seemed to be the best on my plants. Though I never tried LED or other types of light.

Don't get the "desert" bulbs for reptiles. It is mostly UV light and will glow purple. If it looks bright almost blinding white to your eyeball its pretty good light for the plant. Same with the lightbulbs at the store. If it looks red, orange, dim white, not too good, should be really bright full white. You can use orange bulbs and stuff to induce flowering or whatever other purposes but I never tried any of that. My Tropical bulb was maybe more orange than the full spectrum home bulb but it's so bright I can barely look at it, looks like sunlight to me. But they seem to do better with a combination of both rather than one or the other.

https://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Repti-Glo-Fluorescent-Terrarium/dp/B01CEXCIIW/ref=sr_1_43?crid=YFNS0XAAN9TX&keywords=sun+glo+bulb&qid=1659626935&sprefix=sun+glo+bulb%2Caps%2C104&sr=8-43

337
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing under LEDís
« on: August 04, 2022, 11:26:39 AM »
When I was growing my meyer lemon in ohio I had it under full spectrum flourescent lights. Either just a regular light bulb used for lighting but full spectrum. It should look bright white to your eyes rather than the orange glowy ones which or not good. Or sometimes I used a sun-glo reptile bulb which was also full spectrum bright white but also had some UV in it and slightly different spectrum than the other full spectrum so just gave it more variety.

I watered it with tap water and everything. It was healthier and bloomed more when outside, but meyer blooms year round and I got blooms in winter and the tree was overall healthy. Like I said not quite as happy indoors but I tried to keep it near and window and I had the flourscent on for like 12-14 hours. Seemed to do fine.

You could have salts/minerals building up from tap water. You could do a flush by buying a couple gallons of distilled water, take it in a sink or outside, let the water run out of the bottom of the pot- taking the salts with it. Citrus should be tolerant of soil thats a bit alkaline or bit acidic. It's not that picky about acidity. But tap water if its flowing in, but not flowing out, over time whatever minerals or salts are in it might build up in the soil and need flushed. Or it may be the LEDs. I have to agree with W. I used fluorescent lights and they did fine.

The only thing with a flourescent bulb is it is so weak you need it pretty close to the plant if possible or try to use reflective surfaces to reflect more of the light on the plant or use multiple bulbs. It was getting a more diffuse type of light in the winter on mine, but seemed to do alright. I put it outside as soon as temperatures were warm enough. It was inside as little as possible, but that still was like four or five months out of the year in ohio and I was getting lemons on it. If I kept it indoors year round under those conditions it probably wouldn't have done too well though.

338
That is one tiny bonsai tree. It's fungus/mildew whatever you want to call it. In Florida they have leaves like that all the time, pretty harmless. You can spray it with neem oil which works pretty well if it sits out in the rain or gets sprayed with a hose. The oil will stay on the leaves for a while and eventually wash off with enough waterings. But if you never water the leaves with a strong jet or rain, then I would stick with copper.

When I sprayed my lemon with neem oil it didn't damage it and it killed some insects I was having problems with and kills fungus. I don't know how citrus reacts to copper. On my grapes the neem oil does more damage to the leaves than copper, but usually pretty safe.

339
Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to cut mandarin tree
« on: August 04, 2022, 11:12:07 AM »
Did you grow this from seed?

Citrus from seed are huge trees. I mean 20 feet tall. Of course a container will shrink it but something from seed is not going to work in a container. Secondly, they take at least seven years to get fruit when grown from seed no matter how big the tree is. Third, the tree is tall and skinny because not enough light. It thinks that it is growing in the bottom of the jungle and that it needs to get really tall and reach above the other trees for light. It's pretty hard to simulate sub-tropical sun when you are in the north or indoors. But really intense sunlight will reduce this, but not totally get rid of it because it wants to grow into a huge tree.

If you simply take a cutting of the tree and root it into a new tree you get a smaller bushier type of tree. This is why commercial growers never grow from seed. That and also citrus is not true to seed, you can get sour fruit from planting a seed from a sweet tree, or fruit with too many seeds or too thick skin etc. or that ripen at different times. So they clone them through cuttings so they know what they are growing, but also to keep the tree small and bushy so all the fruit can be reached.  Then they may also grow it on different root-stock which can produce a larger tree or not depending on the type of root stock but pretty much always smaller than something grown from seed.

And if you need to you can cut the top off and let it branch out that way, then you'll get three or four branches that start growing upwards as well. It takes so long to fruit that it wouldn't make any difference in terms of fruit in my opinion. The best option is to cut pieces off and root them. Though when I try to root stuff I usually fail, but if you can get a cutting to grow roots its going to be smaller and more bushy. And by smaller I mean its still going to be a huge plant for indoors but it will be manageable in a large pot.

When I was growing citrus up north- my dwarf meyer lemon which was a rooted cutting I ordered, I had to leave it outside in the sun during summer, then had it near a window with grow lights in winter though it didn't get as much light as it wanted in winter. They will adapt somewhat to their environment but they like to have full sun they aren't very good as a house plant. It's going to bend and stretch looking for sunlight.

340
Ok. This is what I was saying. "Sour orange" is just a regular orange grown from seed. In the wild oranges are barely edible- either full of seeds, or sour like a lemon (though you can make orange aide like lemonaid out of them). There just a few selections that are very sweet, which they clone by grafting or by rooting the sticks.

When they use "sour orange" root stock it's just an orange tree grown from seed. Who knows what the parent was. Could be they just grew some navel oranges from seed.

Citrus is usually grafted because even though you can root a cutting, it doesn't grow a tap root. It's going to be a small bush with shallow roots in the top soil. It will be much weaker than a normal tree- less cold resistant, less resistant to drought or disease, it won't live as long though it could survive a really long time like 50 years or something. They are cool if you want a small tree and are willing to water it and take care of it because it won't survive drought or low nurtients, weeds or anything else very well. They are good for container plants.

Even if you graft, let's say a navel orange, onto a navel orange you grew from seed, it's a lot healthier. It will have a deep tap root, have better cold tolerance, better disease resistance. A lot of times they use a dwarf root stock which will grow bigger than a rooted cutting, but smaller than normal, because you don't want a tree too tall to reach the fruit. Or trifoliate orange is extremely cold hardy and disease resistant etc. will transfer some of that to the top of the tree.

If you grow a citrus straight from seed you get a different result yet. You actually get a big shade tree. The fruit will be so high up you won't be able to reach it. The tree is extremely healthy, much more resistant to disease, cold or drought than anything grown from a cutting. But oranges are not true to seed and revert to a wild type, usually various degrees of sour. Though it's possible to get a small percentage that are sweet.

Grapefruit is the best from seed. They come pretty true to seed and taste slightly better because the tree is just bigger and healthier, but the tree is so huge. The other thing, from seed it takes 7 years minimal to bear fruit. Even when the tree is huge it won't bear fruit. If you grow from a cutting they bear fruit immediately. You'll also get larger thorns or other undesirable traits on stuff grown from seed because the main cloned varieties are selected for desirable traits.

You found a "sour orange" root stock that might actually be slightly sweet because the parent was probably a sweet orange.

If you are grafting citrus, it doesn't make much sense to graft onto a rooted cutting, unless you are growing them in containers. The only way to get a strong root system is to grow citrus from seed.

341
They don't use lemon root stock because a lemon is weaker than an orange. It is less cold hearty and not any more disease resistant. The weakness might mean a less hearty less sweet tree but it doesn't effect the genetics of the bud wood.


That being said Meyer is not a true lemon and it's cold hearty. I don't see any advantage though vs own roots.

A sour orange is essentially just a wild orange. If you plant a sweet orange seed 90% of the time it will grow a sour orange. But from seed it's larger deeper roots healthier than rooting a graft also more cold hearty. Then trifoliate orange is a lot more cold hearty and so on.

But the main advantage of root stock is not the type but that it was grown from seed and thus tougher. If you root a cutting, Meyer lemon in this case and use it for root stock, why not just root the bud wood you want? Or grow a Meyer lemon seed and use that as a root.

342
Citrus General Discussion / Re: sign of citrus greening
« on: August 04, 2022, 05:12:23 AM »
Looks like every tree in Florida on some photos others look good. A good chance of greening. Trees grown from seed are not really affected by greening not much. But they revert to a wild state larger tree more thorns sour fruit. And some grafted varieties hold on for a really long time with greening. Others are goners.

343
Citrus General Discussion / Re: sunburn from led lights?
« on: August 04, 2022, 05:03:17 AM »
There is a lot of variation in what citrus can handle the cold. Dwarf Meyer lemon is perfect for the north. Bring inside when temps go below freezing otherwise it does great. I had lemons in Ohio. It's small enough to grow in a large container and move inside in the winter. I used grow lights in winter.

Some citrus need hot temperature though. Lemons do not like cold but Meyer lemon is only 3/4 lemon. Nobody knows exactly but thought to be 1/8 grapefruit which is very cold hearty 1/8 tangerine and 3/4 lemon. I can eat these lemons they are only slightly sour due to being part orange or whatever. By far the best citrus for the north. I had a tangerine that did well but got too big. Grapefruit is probably the easiest citrus to grow that is good to eat in my opinion or a tangelo half grapefruit half tangerine. Or the Meyer lemon.

344
Citrus General Discussion / Re: sunburn from led lights?
« on: August 04, 2022, 04:55:59 AM »
Yep 100% humidity and sun so powerful it will burn your skin in 15 minutes if you are pale and citrus like it. But citrus don't like sitting in wet soil. It's good to add some sand to the potting soil. They can dry out quite a bit between watering with no problem but damp wet swamp soil they don't like. Don't like mulch. Here in Florida yes high humidity and rains a lot but the dirt is sand so roots dry out between watering and also hot so it dries quickly. A seedling needs zero fertilizer. They will sprout in pure sand. You can fertilize heavy once the plant is big.

345
Citrus General Discussion / Re: What's going on with my Meyer Lemon now?
« on: August 04, 2022, 04:42:25 AM »
It's nothing. It was stressed when it put out those new leaves. That's the cause and it's harmless. Drought, low nutrients, cold heat etc could stress it and lead to that

346
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / Re: Tropical Grapes
« on: July 28, 2022, 12:47:01 PM »
This website has them. Vanessa is a good lubrusca hybrid seedless. Venus and Saturn from Arkansas. These would not be suited for the American South-East but might do well in Arizona. Just have to get a few different ones and see which ones do well for you. But a pure vinifera (European) grape almost definitely won't handle the heat or any disease. 

https://plantingjustice.org/shop/fruiting-vines/grape-table/vanessa/

347
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / Re: Tropical Grapes
« on: July 27, 2022, 02:01:13 PM »
European grapes only do well on the west coast. Even there there's issues. You can check for university of Arkansas released. They have some seedless hybrids. Orlando seedless if you can find it.

Around here Walmart, home Depot etc sells grapes that won't survive here. They don't know anything about growing plants. Probably the same in Arizona.

Arkansas released weren't bred for pierce tolerance. You could go 20 years without getting it but in warm climates it will kill plants without natural resistance. They bred them in northern Arkansas which is the north south border for pierce because cold winters kills it. Other than that they have great hybrids. I can't remember the seedless ones. I think Saturn is one of them. It may have some pierce tolerance. Most of theirs are seeded like hope and joy but there's a few seedless releases and a few places sell them online. Florida releases are much harder to find.

348
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / Re: Tropical Grapes
« on: July 26, 2022, 08:21:44 PM »
You are in Arizona? You have way more options. The main issue here besides pierce disease the high humidity invites all kinds of fungus and rot unless the plant has natural immunity. The only seedless grape I know of for the south is Orlando seedless. It grows really fast small seedless berries. Pierce tolerant but mine got covered in fungus which isn't an issue in Arizona. Don't know if you will be able to find it anywhere. The ones I have and 99% of the varieties out there are seeded.

Most of the breeding is also focused on wine but these are good fresh eating as well.

349
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / Re: Tropical Grapes
« on: July 26, 2022, 07:46:41 PM »
A bunch of people said they want them but nobody has sent a money order yet. It will cost $5-$10 to ship the plant. I only make a couple dollars. Compare that to buying online it will be about $25 when you include shipping.

Besides being great varieties to share with others I want to free up room because I have too many grapevines.

The three small ones are selfed bd (stover x Daytona) I germinated them later and they grow a little slower due to inbreeding. These are the three survivors out of 30 seeds. They survived in the most disease prone area for grapes (south Florida). If you breed them their offspring will have restored vigor and grow fast. Blanc du Boise's parent is a slow growing selfed. Even these are doing decent. The weak ones were left to die.

The moderate size are z86 x bd and z86 x taris (rooted). The huge one is the same age a few months old z86 x bd that is about six feet long with a thick trunk literally every day is visibly bigger. My taris x z86 is similar super fast growing. I had about 20 seeds and left with three normal growing and one super crazy healthy one. A few seeds don't germinate and others get disease. These are some of the best you can find in terms of good quality grapes and high disease resistance. They are all good size except bd selfed.












350
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / Re: Tropical Grapes
« on: July 24, 2022, 08:05:11 PM »
The cheap cat litter is pure clay. Expensive cat litter has chemicals added so don't mess with that. The clay holds water and nutrients better but too much is bad the roots will be too wet. A small amount in the mix works really well though. For a long time all my grapes were dying. Now I am finally having success.

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