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Messages - Till

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1
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Trifoliate flower scent?
« on: March 22, 2024, 06:58:37 PM »
Descriptions in nurseries must in general be critically read. Besides citrus, my other hobby are edible mountain ashes and mountain ash hybrids. I have meanwhile almost all varieties that I have ever found in the internet. It was not easy to get them and so I had to read through many catalogues. It happened very often that genealogies of hybrids were roughly shortened. And what also happened very often that they claimed cultivars to be self-fertile that are definitely not self-fertile. Fruit yeald was also often exaggerated. Some nurseries either do not know better or they just write what sells best. It is some work to compare the information in catalogues with first hand information of the breeders or with information of botanical gardens with university background.

Nonetheless, Poncirus with flagrant flowers seem to exist. Maybe Mikkel can post something about the cultivar he has gotten. I also believe that the woman from whom I got my budwood is absolutely trustworthy. She did not want to sell something. She did not even know that she has something special in her garden. And she was very definite upon my inquieries that she has smelled a very strong odor of the flowers not of the fruits (which are always flagrant). And last but not least she sent me everything for free.

2
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Trifoliate flower scent?
« on: March 17, 2024, 04:16:50 PM »
Poncirus in general is scentless. But there are at least 2 clones in the world with very flagrant flowers. One is known to Mikkel. The other one was found by myself. I found an article of a woman in the internet that praised her Poncirus for its beautifully flagrant flowers, obviously not knowing that Poncirus is usually not flagrant. I wrote her an email and finally got budwood. I was NOT able to test her claims because I do not have flowers yet. But she was very sure about the strong smell of the flowers. There are no indications that she has a Poncirus hybrid. Seems to be pure Poncirus. Ilya got budwood from me. Ilya have the grafts flowered since then?

Most nurseries that claim they have a flagrant Poncirus simple lie. That is at least what I believe. If they were true many people had a Poncirus with smelling flowers. But fact is that hardly any knew one when the question was first rised in this forum. Many nurseries even present pictures of normal lemons when they sell Poncirus. And then they speak about flagrant flowers because they believe that any Citrus plant has flowers with scent.

3
It seems that F1 crosses with Kumquat have a thin peel. Kumquat x Buddhas Hand has a very thin peel that is not particulary tasty though edible. All Limequats have a relatively thin peel. Given the fact that Limes are F1 hybrids with Citron it seems clear that from all crosses between Kumquat and Citron only F2 (F3, F4 etc. also) crosses will have a peel thick enough to be of culinary interest no matter what Citron you use for breeding. Kumquat Buddhas Hand x Kumquat has fruits as big as a medium size plum, so not very big.

4
What exactly do you mean by "Red Lime"? Is it the cross with Fingerlime described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_lime? Or is it another plant?

5
What about Australian Sunrise? I don't have it but from what I read it has a peel like kumquat. (The peel comes from its grandfather, Calamondin, or lets better say from its grand-grandfather, kumquat.)

F. obovata, as least the one I have, is very good. It has big sweet peel and sweet pulp with mandarine taste. It is the best tasting Citrus fruit for me and all my family.

Haruka is said to have a very sweet rind and sweet pulp. It was extremly difficult to get but I have it now. If you want budwood please send me a private message.

I have tasted some Citrons in Sizily. The peel of all is sweet and fruity and thus edible like an apple.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus Breeding
« on: February 29, 2024, 01:34:03 PM »
A cross of Citrumelo x Changsha Citrandarin would have the advantage that frost hardiness is very likely. A good hardiness cannot be garantied but since you have 2 Poncirus grandparents involved and one hardy mandarine it is very probable that seedlings can at least take -15°C / 5°F. And since two of the grandparents are sweet (Grapefruit and Changsha) there is some hope that the hybrids will also bear sweet fruits.

The toll regulations are as often a great problem. We have in Europe a fully hardy Changsha Citrandarin (US 899 F2 from "Usirius") with zygotic seeds and we have a kind of sweet Poncirus (Poncirus Kinga) with full hardiness which is actually also a hybrid. The former has fruits with medium acidity (sour but less than Poncirus), good mandarin aroma and mild Poncirus flavour. The latter one is said to be sweet and to resemble Poncirus in other regards.

Perhaps yopu have similar types in the States.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus Breeding
« on: February 29, 2024, 06:05:08 AM »
Pollen must be dried (best at 30°C but probably not warmer). Dried pollen can be frozen at -20°C for at least a year.

The best choice for crossing would in my view be crossing two citrandarins with each other or crossing a citrumelo with a citrandarin thus getting something orangelike. But it is always good to try new things. I had difficulties using Keraji as mother plant because it blooms later than many other hardy citrus plants. And I got a greater number of polyembryonic seeds. I also pollinated Poncirus with frozen Keraji pollen. But it is very doubtful that I got hybrids. The seedlings look too ponciruslike I would say.

Still, you my be more successful!

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: February 21, 2024, 03:42:55 AM »
Mkono, go ahead and be optimistic! Great project. You will have enough survivors when you start with such a great number of zygotic seedlings. And you will probably have some good tasting seedling at the end.

Dr. Frey sowed 200 seedlings from Sanford Citrange (a zygotic variety). He falsely killed all trifoliate seedlings and still ended up with two edible varieties, Sanford Curafora and Vanessa. Ok, they were only moderately hardy. But from what a small number of seedlings!

9
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Amoa 8 Blood Mandarin…woah!
« on: February 20, 2024, 12:49:32 PM »
A short time of freezing but nonetheless amazing how it survived.

10
Lemon and Citron should be distinguished, right? Lemon is a hybrid between Citron (male part) and Sour orange.

11
I agree with Mikkel. The idea that Yuzu descents from C. ichangensis was first of all a mere guess of Walter Swingle. It was a plausible guess. But that his idea has been repeated many thousand times in the last 100 years does not make it more true than genetic studies. Ichang Lemon is according to genetic studies a descendant of Yuzu.
There is a rule in science that we must not cast doubt on any believe without a good reason. Taste is not a very good reason I would say because C. ichangensis is a quite variable species. Different varieties have different fruits. And taste of hybrids is not necessarily conform to the taste of parental species.
Tanaka, by the way, was never convinced by Swingle even before genetic studies could be made.
Yuzu is an extremly old cultivar. It is well possible that its ancestor has died out.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Table of citrus cold hardiness and %zygotic seed
« on: February 11, 2024, 05:43:27 PM »
Tedburn,
we will see. You may be right. Both parents are late. Staraji fruits are now still green and quite small. Trifeola is not extremly late but too late to be harversted in the year of flowering. I do not know how the genes will be mixed. I could imagine that offspring is early maturing. Most Poncirus hybrids are quite early (though not early enough). So if the Poncirus influence dominates I will have early fruits. That is admittingly only to a certain degree probable and far from certain. Both parents have at least the genes for sweetness. And zygotic seeds are also possible for my cross. Keraji has edible peel so Staraji has at least the genes for edible peel.

I have never eaten a Staraji fruit. My plant bloomed for the first time last year. I only have Ilya's description which says sweet and without off-flavours. That was argument enough for me to try the cross.

By the way, most of my Citrumelo seedlings (Sacaton??) were serverly frostbidden even under the snow at about -8°C / 17,6°F. But some zygotic ones did not even suffer leaf damage. Lets hope that my Trifeola seedlings will be among the surviving ones the next winter. Its a lottery but with a realistic chance to win.

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Table of citrus cold hardiness and %zygotic seed
« on: February 11, 2024, 03:14:21 AM »
Here a picture of my lasted Trifeola (Minneola x Poncirus or Poncirus x Minneola) seedlings. I pollinated with Staraji from Ilya. As you see three to four are monofoliate. Seedlings are from one fruit. They are somewhat weak because the fruit fell off unripe and seeds were immature. But now the seedlings start to grow better (under artificial light).



My Trifeola is a beautiful plant with big glossy leaves and beautiful flagrant flowers. The fruits, however, are never fully ripe at the end of the year and taste horribly bitter. Yet, I believe it is usefull for breeding.

The seedlings are not my first Trifeola seedlings. But its hard to tell how many were zygotic in the past. Some assumedly zygotic seedlings later looked uniform. Some assumed zygotic seedlings were to weak to finally survive. My experience with Trifeola seedlings is very limited.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Possible Sacaton citrumelo x Ten Degree Tangerine
« on: February 05, 2024, 05:28:55 PM »
I also have a Dunstan seedling with this leaf form. Definitely zygotic. But usefull? Lets talk again in a few year!

15
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Amoa 8 Blood Mandarin…woah!
« on: February 05, 2024, 05:26:11 PM »
I have it since last year. It is just a small rooted cutting. I do not know importation rules of Argentinia. But you may ask me in summer when it is hopefully so big that I can cut off a twig for you.

16
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: January 30, 2024, 03:56:51 PM »
Yes. I liked to read the article.

17
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat x Buddha's Hand
« on: January 30, 2024, 08:39:57 AM »
Hello everybody!

I had some fruits this year. They look exactly like those on the picture above. Size as big as a common plum. Peel very thin as on the picture what surprised me. Peel is not very sweet. Totally seedless fruits despite of pollination. The fruits are very juicy. And the taste of the juice is lemonlike and sour, perhaps not as sour as true lemons.

To be honest, I was a bit disappointed by Kumquat x Buddhas Hand. Not that the taste was bad. Not that the fruits are not usefull. Yes, you can enjoy them and do something with them. But I asked myself where the plus of the variety is. I would say a true lemon has a bit more complex taste. And a true lemon has usable peel. The peel of Kumquat x Buddhas Hand is too thin to be of real use and it does not taste better than lemon peel.

So my final assessment: Stay with lemons when you like sour fruits. When you want to breed something new you may use it in further crosses for it does have plenty of pollen. But it will be a kind of lottery what you will get because there is perhaps nobody who knows what its exact genetical constitution is. Can it pass off fingered fruits? Are fingered fruits a recessive trait still contained in Kumquat x Buddhas Hand or is it a dominant trait which then would be not present? In which crossing combination will the thick peel of Buddhas Hand citron show up again?

I would say: Nice to have but nothing special despite its origin. It only made me a bit more informed: I now know that kumquat crossed with citron leads to thin peel that is only moderately sweet. A pitty. I hoped it would be the opposite: very sweet and thick.


18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Table of citrus cold hardiness and %zygotic seed
« on: January 28, 2024, 02:39:28 PM »
The parent of US-802, "C. grandis 'Siamese'", is that the same as "Siamese Sweet"?

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Table of citrus cold hardiness and %zygotic seed
« on: January 28, 2024, 12:48:43 PM »
Very good idea to gather all these central information in a table.

Keraji appeared to me to be highly polyembroyonic, so probably also nucellar? Has somebody more experience with it?

Chimeras like Prag should be included in the table only with the additional remark what kind of seeds they produce. In case of Prag: Are the seeds from the Poncirus layer of the chimera or from the Satsuma layer? I mean for breeding it counts either as Satsuma or as Poncirus.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu as a rootstock
« on: January 27, 2024, 12:41:52 PM »
I have no experience with it as a rootstock. But it seems to me that it has very healthy roots, something a rootstock should have.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Heterozygosity and zygotic breeding lines
« on: January 23, 2024, 05:07:27 PM »
Ilya, I am thinking about it. I may test a cutting.

The climate here is special. In my childhood -20°C was very common, even for two weeks. Now, the lowest temperatures are about -10°C. Winters are cool and wet but usually not very frosty. Yet the growing season is still short (begin of April to end or mid of September) and late frost remains a problem. -10°C in April is well possible. That is a real challenge for Poncirus or citranges that have started to grow then. Yuzu does better in late frost. But its overall hardiness is not sufficient.

Only 30km away is one of the mildest areas of Germany (around Cologne and Bonn). Poncirus grows very well there and citrumelos did well for at least many years. The lowlands...

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Heterozygosity and zygotic breeding lines
« on: January 23, 2024, 08:33:00 AM »
I fear I need a lot of patience. I live about 500m above sea level. So even Poncirus does not grow well if planted outside. So I have to plant as many plants as possible under glas. There Poncirus needs about 7 years from seed to flower. Kucle x Poncirus was a bit faster but only two seedlings have bloomed so far - and did not set fruit.
I am going to graft many seedlings onto older plants in hope that they need only 4 years then.

Some seedlings will be planted outside but only those that can reasonably be expected to be hardy down to -20°C / -4°F. I will not test those seedlings that are most likely only as hardy as citranges. I need not know whether they can withstand -10°C / 14°F or -15°C / 5°F. It is not enough at any rate. I shall use these seedlings for further crosses as fast as possible. What I will test are the further crosses.

What I will plant outside are those many seedlings that do not contain very special genes, those in which only the overall gene combination may be of value. So all zygotic seedlings of my citrumelo that were produced by selfing will be planted outside. Also combinations like Poncirus x citrange. When they are not hardy enough to survive then they have no value for me at all. Even if they taste well they will not be better than existing hybrids except they are hardier.

But I shall not test for instance Ichang Papeda x Amoa8 or Poncirus x Sucrena. The latter ones are definitely not hardy enough but have value for me because they may contain the genes for bloody fruits or sweetness. When they are not hardier than existing hybrids they are still more valuable for me because they contain special genes.

So that is the logic of my testing. I will, however, make cuttings form some potentially hardy plants and test the cuttings out of curiosity. I shall do that as I have time. So I will probably not consequently do that.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Heterozygosity and zygotic breeding lines
« on: January 23, 2024, 01:35:08 AM »
I consequently wrote the mother plant first (as is convenient in biology).

I do not castrate the flowers because I pollinate too much flowers. I have not the time to castrate them. It is then a bit more difficult to recognize the hybrids. But I am quite optimistic that I can do it nonetheless. Trifoliate leaves are only one characteristic of Poncirus hybrids. There are many others (paired first leaves or not, form of leaves, taste, leaf texture, leaf size etc.). I think it will become quite clear in the second year which are hybrids. Many can be recognized already now when you have a close look at the plant. The same is true I think for most other non trifoliate hybrids.

Regarding the Yuzu x Poncirus hybrid it was clear from the beginning that it is not nucellar. And some trifoliate leaves were then I clear sign that it is a Poncirus hybrid. It is indeed startling that it is mostly monofoliate. I also had a Kucle x Poncirus cross that was almost totally monofoliate. My supposition is that Papada genes can supress trifoliate leaves. Another example would be N1triVoss (Ichang Papeda x Poncirus) on the origin of which, however, some have cast doubt. The other explanation (or lets better say guess) of monofoliate Poncirus hybrids is that they are triploid. Now, my Yuzu x Poncirus does not look like a triploid I would say.

Regarding taste: Well, the taste may in many cases be far from our dreams. Yet I am optimistic. Dunstan Citrumelo has a very good taste. The other Citrumelo I used is not a culinary revelation but has high potential for it is very aromatic and even a bit sweet. Batumi Citrumelo is also tasty, as is Sanford Curafora. The Poncirus types I used are also better tasting ones that are in some year so good that you can almost eat them out of hand. So I am optimistic that at least some hybrids will taste better than Morton. Yuzu x Poncirus has no Poncirus taste in its leaves. That makes me also optimistic. The sole goal of all Chandler hybrids and of the one Sucrena hybrid is to get hardy plants with low acidity. My goal here is not to get tasty hybrids. I just want to take one step into the direction of hardy and sweet hybrids. Vainigla Sanguigno x Poncirus was also an attempt to create a hardy plant with low acidity. In that case my goal cannot be reached as I now know. Low acidity in Vainiglia Sanguigno is recessively inherited (defect NOEMI gene). In the case of Chandler (Siamese Sweet in background) I can reasoably expect that 50% of the crosses have only about 50% of the acidity of the sourest parent. My knowledge about Sucrena is more limited but I have hope. Sucrena is sweet because it converts acids into suggars more early and faster than normal sweet fruits.

I had a Calamondin bush of over two meters with plenty of fruits. My pollination of it was exceptionally loosy. While I normally take care that I am earlier than the bees I only pollinated from time to time my Calamondin bush without caring how old the flowers were. Under this circumstances I got about five hybrids per year. So I think you with your careful method should have a pretty good rate of hybrids - at least with Poncirus. I only got one single off-type seedling from Calamondin that had no Poncirus in its background. This is telling since Chandler and Limequat often bloom at the same time. The one off-type seedling has darker green leaves and grows faster than Calamondin. Leaf form and size is very close to pure Calamondin.

I do not have Taiwanica. I often wanted to get it but was never very keen on it. I think I already have better tasting trifoliate hybrids with more hardiness potential. Don't you think?

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Heterozygosity and zygotic breeding lines
« on: January 22, 2024, 03:25:38 PM »
Vainiglia Sanguigno x Poncirus. It had root problems so has not grown very big. Its sibling (not on the picture) had to be saved by grafting.



Chandler x (African Shadock x Poncirus).



C. ichangensis x Chandler. Some are hybrids,others probably not.



Limequat Tavares x Yuzu. Two very similar hybrids (the bigger ones). There are also smaller nucellar seedings in the pot.



Perhaps the only zygotic seedling of Tavares Limequat that I did not intend. Grafted on Swingle 5 Star. Its own roots were very problematic. The trifoliate is Morton. I also had trifoliate hybrids but they died. (Beginner's mistakes.)



Changsha x Dunstan Citrumelo. Look at the trifoliate ones. The rest will be nucellar.



Poncirus x Amoa 8? I am not sure if there is a hybrid.



Kucle x Poncirus






Changsha x Poncirus (a Poncirus with many zygotic seeds).



Red Fingerlime x C. ichangensis. Do you see hybrids? I am not sure.




I have many more seedlings, mainly with Poncirus as mother plant. But the seedings are two small that I clearly see were the hybrids are. This is especially difficult because I made backcrosses of Poncirus F1 hybrids onto Poncirus.


I did not state here which Poncirus I have used in the various crosses. In the case of Kucle x Poncirus I used dried pollen from precocious Poncirus mixed with pollen of a Poncirus from my garden that has not yet fruited. I only know that it is pretty hardy and that its motherplant had fruits that my parents call quite good. When I did not state the Poncirus clone then it was a better tasting one.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Heterozygosity and zygotic breeding lines
« on: January 22, 2024, 03:02:36 PM »
Some citrumelo seedlings. (Sacaton? Nursery confused names). From open pollination.



Poncirus x Batumi Citrumelo. There are hybrids among them but hard to recognize.






C. ichangensis x Amoa 8 (="Rubino" from Agrumi Lenzi). I would say one hybrid, the "big" one in the foreground.




Other pictures will follow...

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