How to prepare a hole the right way

[buddyguygreen]

Now this can mostly be applied to central florida and areas with deep sand, I doubt you going to dig an 8 foot hole in clay or rock, I think you would hit salt water if you did this down south but still if you have room underground to excavate and prepare the soil this is an idea how its done.

Im digging up my whole yard and re doing the soil so i dont have any soil problems and can start to build up more organic matter and have a high Cation Exchange Capacity. Turning sand into soil. Conserve water, time, and nutrients. Keep the trees warmer and cooler and lowering the PH to 6.2 to 5.5 depending on what is to be planted. The remaining sand Im using for the border and so I can still plant trees that like the high alkaline sand like goji berries.

Started with digging a 10 foot long 6 foot wide and 8 feet deep hole

I didnt take a pic of the whole process because i didnt want to get my camera dirty, but i put a bag of peat moss down with some different soils, then I put a good size oak log about 50 pounds down, Then i proceeded to fill it in with green material like weeds and clippings and what not.

Some of the soils I used. I filled just about the entire hole up with green material then proceeded to fill it up with the soils and peat moss mixed together, also drpped a huge oak log and jammed a couple oak branches down in it as i was filling it.

I was trying to get a picture of a huge 100 pound oak log that i also put in there, total about 5 or 6 oak logs in the lowest part of the hole.

More oak logs and now adding the green material again

Filled it with a bunch of compost and helicon branches

Then a bunch of banana leaves and a few bags of peat moss and a bag of fox farm ocean forest just to get the bacteria in it.

then more oak branches

then more green material and oak leaves, starting to fill the rest in with a compost soil, peat moss and garden soil (turkey manure soil mix)


And filled the rest up with the soil peat moss blend.


total about 15 oak logs, a bunch of branches, a bunch of green material, half a giant helicon, 20 bags of sphagnum peat moss, 25 bags of compost soil, 25 bags of garden soil, a few bags of cow manure and about 10 hours of work. Also im going to put more cow manure peat moss and compost soil blend, mulch and green manure about another foot above this hole for the top soil layer. The huge amount of carbon  will rob your nitrogen so large amounts of manure and green material is needed to balance it out, but you'll be surprised how the logs and branches suck all the nitrogen from the soil so what is being put in will even it out so the carbon can get its share of nitrogen and when you start to grow plants in it, the hole will have just enough nitrogen to get your plants to start growing. So an additional nitrogen fixing plants or trees will have to be added to maintain a proper balance. Im going to use sunn hemp at first then finish by planting a inga tree.

There you go, not only will it now hold water and give lots of carbon and nitrogen and breed various microbes, but when the winter comes the peat moss and soils will act like insulation to keep the heat in and now you dont have to worry about your plants getting cold. Its the hard way but its the best way so you get all the maintenance out of the way like fertilizing as much or watering or anything that you would have problems with on sand.

also I wait about a year or two before planting any trees to allow the decomposition and microbes to build up, I also use mushroom mixes to help break the wood down faster and myceleium to start the connection. I plant banana trees too for the shade to keep the sun off the soil while i wait to plant the final tree.

[savemejebus]

Umm dig hole, tree goes in hole, the end.

In reality, process is more like, start digging hole, hit old tree roots, curse up a storm, get the axe, axe didn't work, get the saw, ha screw you roots, back to the shovel, omg another root, damn you hole, more cursing, throw shovel in frustration, take break, curse some more before returning to hole, finish hole, swear to never plant another tree.

Repeat process tomorrow.

[buddyguygreen]

haha right, goes with the territory.

[Zeeth]

Aren't you worried about the whole thing sinking into the ground as it decomposes? Also I would worry about creating toxic sulfur compounds from the anaerobic decomposition of all of that material.

[MangoFang]

Buddy - please explain the oak log connection to building good soil?  Boy - that's
a ____-load of work you are describing....

thanks, gary

[buddyguygreen]

The oak logs help release loads of carbon underground to feed the soil organisms which causes an explosion in growth of plants and is essential in the plants growth, also they help store water, when the hole is wet the logs suck in the moisture and release it over weeks. Also everywhere ive ever set an oak log down for a couple weeks the soil gets darker and has a bunch of worms in it so it helps breed all my buddies. But its mainly the carbon you want which is essential for strong, healthy plants and you can only imagine when the trees start fruiting, they will have more than enough food and water. Just trying to replicate how the amazon is and i figured it would take a hundred years before the soil could get that organic matter that deep so might as well start digging.

[buddyguygreen]

Aren't you worried about the whole thing sinking into the ground as it decomposes? Also I would worry about creating toxic sulfur compounds from the anaerobic decomposition of all of that material.

it only gets anaerobic when it doesn't get the air and the green brown ratio is wrong. If you keep it balanced no problem. As far as the hole sinking, thats why i wait a couple years before planting which allows the settling to take place and I keep filling it up with leaves and weeds or green clippings.

[DurianLover]

I would not plant "wet feet" sensitive tree in such hole. Soil might be too rich for good drainage.

[buddyguygreen]

I would not plant "wet feet" sensitive tree in such hole. Soil might be too rich with for good drainage.

Its awesome right, unheard of words here living on sand. This specific hole i tried to keep PH mid 5 to 6 and I was going to put a mangosteen tree here so its perfect.

[starling1]

Now this can mostly be applied to central florida and areas with deep sand, I doubt you going to dig an 8 foot hole in clay or rock, I think you would hit salt water if you did this down south but still if you have room underground to excavate and prepare the soil this is an idea how its done.

Im digging up my whole yard and re doing the soil so i dont have any soil problems and can start to build up more organic matter and have a high Cation Exchange Capacity. Turning sand into soil. Conserve water, time, and nutrients. Keep the trees warmer and cooler and lowering the PH to 6.2 to 5.5 depending on what is to be planted. The remaining sand Im using for the border and so I can still plant trees that like the high alkaline sand like goji berries.

Started with digging a 10 foot long 6 foot wide and 8 feet deep hole

I didnt take a pic of the whole process because i didnt want to get my camera dirty, but i put a bag of peat moss down with some different soils, then I put a good size oak log about 50 pounds down, Then i proceeded to fill it in with green material like weeds and clippings and what not.

Some of the soils I used. I filled just about the entire hole up with green material then proceeded to fill it up with the soils and peat moss mixed together, also drpped a huge oak log and jammed a couple oak branches down in it as i was filling it.

I was trying to get a picture of a huge 100 pound oak log that i also put in there, total about 5 or 6 oak logs in the lowest part of the hole.

More oak logs and now adding the green material again

Filled it with a bunch of compost and helicon branches

Then a bunch of banana leaves and a few bags of peat moss and a bag of fox farm ocean forest just to get the bacteria in it.

then more oak branches

then more green material and oak leaves, starting to fill the rest in with a compost soil, peat moss and garden soil (turkey manure soil mix)


And filled the rest up with the soil peat moss blend.


total about 15 oak logs, a bunch of branches, a bunch of green material, half a giant helicon, 20 bags of sphagnum peat moss, 25 bags of compost soil, 25 bags of garden soil, a few bags of cow manure and about 10 hours of work. Also im going to put more cow manure peat moss and compost soil blend, mulch and green manure about another foot above this hole for the top soil layer. The huge amount of carbon  will rob your nitrogen so large amounts of manure and green material is needed to balance it out, but you'll be surprised how the logs and branches suck all the nitrogen from the soil so what is being put in will even it out so the carbon can get its share of nitrogen and when you start to grow plants in it, the hole will have just enough nitrogen to get your plants to start growing. So an additional nitrogen fixing plants or trees will have to be added to maintain a proper balance. Im going to use sunn hemp at first then finish by planting a inga tree.

There you go, not only will it now hold water and give lots of carbon and nitrogen and breed various microbes, but when the winter comes the peat moss and soils will act like insulation to keep the heat in and now you dont have to worry about your plants getting cold. Its the hard way but its the best way so you get all the maintenance out of the way like fertilizing as much or watering or anything that you would have problems with on sand.

also I wait about a year or two before planting any trees to allow the decomposition and microbes to build up, I also use mushroom mixes to help break the wood down faster and myceleium to start the connection. I plant banana trees too for the shade to keep the sun off the soil while i wait to plant the final tree.

Hey, good for you buddy; and I finally have somebody to commiserate with RE digging huge trenches. I know how much work goes into one of these, it's Backbreaking and really takes it out of you especially in the heat, I know your pain.  Will work well. Only thing I might add is that you might want to consider switching around the measurements if you can get away with it--wider is better than deeper. If you're planting an annona in there, dig out and extra depth for the tap root.

One other thing, if you're filling the base with decomposable stuff, you will have to add extra top soil over the depth of the tench height at at least a foot--over time, it will shrink down at least that much. I guess you can just do this as it happens though really.

Just finished doing a smaller one today for some sapodillas, I'll post a pic a little later.

[Tropheus76]

Ha, if I dug down 8 feet I would be standing in 4 or 5 feet of water.

[Zeeth]

Aren't you worried about the whole thing sinking into the ground as it decomposes? Also I would worry about creating toxic sulfur compounds from the anaerobic decomposition of all of that material.

it only gets anaerobic when it doesn't get the air and the green brown ratio is wrong. If you keep it balanced no problem. As far as the hole sinking, thats why i wait a couple years before planting which allows the settling to take place and I keep filling it up with leaves and weeds or green clippings.

I understand that, but there's much less oxygen available at 8 feet down than closer to the surface. It's been a while since I took microbiology, so I don't remember the exact depth, but there's a certain depth when the anaerobic bacteria take over. You might be fine at 8 feet but I would be cautious.

Either way, there's a planting method not dissimilar to what you do and I've thought about giving it a try. It seems like mumbo jumbo to me but who knows.

http://www.highbrixgardens.com/fruittreesonsteroids.html

P.S. did you say you're going to try a mangosteen in the ground?? I've heard they're too cold sensitive even for Miami.

[zands]

You are doing a form of hugelkultur. My opinion is four ft deep is good enough for your project. After four ft you get diminishing returns. IOW going four ft deep will achieve 85% of what you want

Hugelkultur: The ultimate raised garden beds
http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/
hugelkultur: the ultimate raised garden beds hugelkultur raised garden beds in a nutshell. grow a typical garden without irrigation or fertilization

Hugelkultur is nothing more than making raised garden beds filled with rotten wood. This makes for raised garden beds loaded with organic material, nutrients, air pockets for the roots of what you plant, etc. As the years pass, the deep soil of your raised garden bed becomes incredibly rich and loaded with soil life. As the wood shrinks, it makes more tiny air pockets - so your hugelkultur becomes sort of self tilling. The first few years, the composting process will slightly warm your soil giving you a slightly longer growing season. The woody matter helps to keep nutrient excess from passing into the ground water - and then refeeding that to your garden plants later. Plus, by holding SO much water, hugelkultur could be part of a system for growing garden crops in the desert with no irrigation.

[fruitlovers]

Wow! I thought planting a tree was tough here. Thanks, you made me feel better about my lava rock. HAHAHA
Seems like what you are doing is planting your trees into a giant compost pile. I did similar here when i first started, but i also added what is euphemistically called night soil. Since there was no toilet at that time, only compost toilet, it worked well to dig a hole, fill in with layers of night soil and compost, let it sit for a couple of months, and then plant a tree right over it. Results were very good.

[buddyguygreen]

Aren't you worried about the whole thing sinking into the ground as it decomposes? Also I would worry about creating toxic sulfur compounds from the anaerobic decomposition of all of that material.

it only gets anaerobic when it doesn't get the air and the green brown ratio is wrong. If you keep it balanced no problem. As far as the hole sinking, thats why i wait a couple years before planting which allows the settling to take place and I keep filling it up with leaves and weeds or green clippings.

I understand that, but there's much less oxygen available at 8 feet down than closer to the surface. It's been a while since I took microbiology, so I don't remember the exact depth, but there's a certain depth when the anaerobic bacteria take over. You might be fine at 8 feet but I would be cautious.

Either way, there's a planting method not dissimilar to what you do and I've thought about giving it a try. It seems like mumbo jumbo to me but who knows.

http://www.highbrixgardens.com/fruittreesonsteroids.html

P.S. did you say you're going to try a mangosteen in the ground?? I've heard they're too cold sensitive even for Miami.

Yea the deeper you go the more green that has to be used, I also leave air pockets all throughout. Ive done this a few times and it works great. I only went so deep because I want to keep the roots as warm as possible for the mangosteen and so it can hold more water.  Because I made the soil so rich the root system of the mangosteen tree will be more protected from cold and its the roots that you have to keep warm in the winter, so I would be able to grow it with no problem now. Thats what I call zone creating.

By making the hole insulated enough it will keep the roots nice and warm which is the most important thing you have to do in winter

[buddyguygreen]

You are doing a form of hugelkultur. My opinion is four ft deep is good enough for your project. After four ft you get diminishing returns. IOW going four ft deep will achieve 85% of what you want

Hugelkultur: The ultimate raised garden beds
http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/
hugelkultur: the ultimate raised garden beds hugelkultur raised garden beds in a nutshell. grow a typical garden without irrigation or fertilization

Hugelkultur is nothing more than making raised garden beds filled with rotten wood. This makes for raised garden beds loaded with organic material, nutrients, air pockets for the roots of what you plant, etc. As the years pass, the deep soil of your raised garden bed becomes incredibly rich and loaded with soil life. As the wood shrinks, it makes more tiny air pockets - so your hugelkultur becomes sort of self tilling. The first few years, the composting process will slightly warm your soil giving you a slightly longer growing season. The woody matter helps to keep nutrient excess from passing into the ground water - and then refeeding that to your garden plants later. Plus, by holding SO much water, hugelkultur could be part of a system for growing garden crops in the desert with no irrigation.

I did use that style of permaculture with a little bit i learned from here and there, man does it WORK. I went 5 feet for the majority of the holes im making but the ones for my ultra tropicals im making deeper to hold more water and so the tap roots can keep feeding all the way down, also for the temperatures.

[buddyguygreen]

Now this can mostly be applied to central florida and areas with deep sand, I doubt you going to dig an 8 foot hole in clay or rock, I think you would hit salt water if you did this down south but still if you have room underground to excavate and prepare the soil this is an idea how its done.

Im digging up my whole yard and re doing the soil so i dont have any soil problems and can start to build up more organic matter and have a high Cation Exchange Capacity. Turning sand into soil. Conserve water, time, and nutrients. Keep the trees warmer and cooler and lowering the PH to 6.2 to 5.5 depending on what is to be planted. The remaining sand Im using for the border and so I can still plant trees that like the high alkaline sand like goji berries.

Started with digging a 10 foot long 6 foot wide and 8 feet deep hole

I didnt take a pic of the whole process because i didnt want to get my camera dirty, but i put a bag of peat moss down with some different soils, then I put a good size oak log about 50 pounds down, Then i proceeded to fill it in with green material like weeds and clippings and what not.

Some of the soils I used. I filled just about the entire hole up with green material then proceeded to fill it up with the soils and peat moss mixed together, also drpped a huge oak log and jammed a couple oak branches down in it as i was filling it.

I was trying to get a picture of a huge 100 pound oak log that i also put in there, total about 5 or 6 oak logs in the lowest part of the hole.

More oak logs and now adding the green material again

Filled it with a bunch of compost and helicon branches

Then a bunch of banana leaves and a few bags of peat moss and a bag of fox farm ocean forest just to get the bacteria in it.

then more oak branches

then more green material and oak leaves, starting to fill the rest in with a compost soil, peat moss and garden soil (turkey manure soil mix)


And filled the rest up with the soil peat moss blend.


total about 15 oak logs, a bunch of branches, a bunch of green material, half a giant helicon, 20 bags of sphagnum peat moss, 25 bags of compost soil, 25 bags of garden soil, a few bags of cow manure and about 10 hours of work. Also im going to put more cow manure peat moss and compost soil blend, mulch and green manure about another foot above this hole for the top soil layer. The huge amount of carbon  will rob your nitrogen so large amounts of manure and green material is needed to balance it out, but you'll be surprised how the logs and branches suck all the nitrogen from the soil so what is being put in will even it out so the carbon can get its share of nitrogen and when you start to grow plants in it, the hole will have just enough nitrogen to get your plants to start growing. So an additional nitrogen fixing plants or trees will have to be added to maintain a proper balance. Im going to use sunn hemp at first then finish by planting a inga tree.

There you go, not only will it now hold water and give lots of carbon and nitrogen and breed various microbes, but when the winter comes the peat moss and soils will act like insulation to keep the heat in and now you dont have to worry about your plants getting cold. Its the hard way but its the best way so you get all the maintenance out of the way like fertilizing as much or watering or anything that you would have problems with on sand.

also I wait about a year or two before planting any trees to allow the decomposition and microbes to build up, I also use mushroom mixes to help break the wood down faster and myceleium to start the connection. I plant banana trees too for the shade to keep the sun off the soil while i wait to plant the final tree.

Hey, good for you buddy; and I finally have somebody to commiserate with RE digging huge trenches. I know how much work goes into one of these, it's Backbreaking and really takes it out of you especially in the heat, I know your pain.  Will work well. Only thing I might add is that you might want to consider switching around the measurements if you can get away with it--wider is better than deeper. If you're planting an annona in there, dig out and extra depth for the tap root.

One other thing, if you're filling the base with decomposable stuff, you will have to add extra top soil over the depth of the tench height at at least a foot--over time, it will shrink down at least that much. I guess you can just do this as it happens though really.

Just finished doing a smaller one today for some sapodillas, I'll post a pic a little later.

Thanks man, its all dedication right. Im filling what sinks down with green manure and leaves and what not to add a good soil layer as it sinks. Im actually digging the entire area up just one hole at a time so its pretty wide, thats why im focusing on depth. Heres a pic of some of the other holes im digging and connecting


I dug these before the first one i showed and you can see the space between them i eventually dug out and filled in. All 3 of these are 6 feet deep by 5 feet wide






Connected them all with less than a foot of sand in between each. I did every hole for the specific tree im going to put there.


This one I dug 12 feet deep by 12 feet by 11 feet and im going to do this one special  Going to be for my durian.

[buddyguygreen]

Wow! I thought planting a tree was tough here. Thanks, you made me feel better about my lava rock. HAHAHA
Seems like what you are doing is planting your trees into a giant compost pile. I did similar here when i first started, but i also added what is euphemistically called night soil. Since there was no toilet at that time, only compost toilet, it worked well to dig a hole, fill in with layers of night soil and compost, let it sit for a couple of months, and then plant a tree right over it. Results were very good.

sounds like you have some shitty soil there    Making giant compost piles underground and planting a tree on it is the only way to do things in are situation, nothing holds water or supplies enough for the microorganisms to build, fertilizers are wasted, might as well just do the work and get superior results. I like the old saying "you get out what you put in" 

[zands]

I did use that style of permaculture with a little bit i learned from here and there, man does it WORK. I went 5 feet for the majority of the holes im making but the ones for my ultra tropicals im making deeper to hold more water and so the tap roots can keep feeding all the way down, also for the temperatures.

Strong root systems will help recovery if you have a freeze that does some above ground damage. An extreme example--  A friend had a volunteer canistel sprout up and he let it grow until it was ten feet tall and trunk was 4" diameter. I helped him remove it and the roots were very surface oriented. No huge root ball which is what you will be getting. So the canistel came out very easily

I have dug generous holes for most of my trees. Some even three ft deep. And since I fertilize into the mulch this all makes for more downward growth as roots chase nutrients and NPK downward. You will get even more of this roots chasing downward after nutrients

I am replacing a few fruit trees so will have to dig three holes in the next two month. I will definitely be burying wood (hugelkultur) in all of them and have done so previously with guavas and grapes.
All that wood and stuff you bury helps foster growth of soil mycorrhizal bacteria which is a big plus + + + +  So does wood chip mulch making for a living, fermenting soil.

[greenman62]

i think i would have hired a backhoe and ripped up  long areas to make swales.
get a dump truck of soil. MUCH cheaper than dozens of bags.
you could do it on contour, that way when it rains, you catch the water before it runs off the property.
Most of the permaculture books/videos show building them 3 to 4 foot tall.
that way, there is no problem when it subsides.

Also, you can call the electrical company in many cities
they will bring you a dump truck of wood chips free.
(they cut down lots of trees for electric lines, and have to get rid of it anyway)
the chips can be used with the logs AND as mulch.
wood chip mulch is great stuff once it starts breaking down.
put some mushroom spore on it. This will assist in it breaking down
and give you yummy shrooms for dinner as well...

Ive never made one this deep.
mine are very shallow. im sure they wont last as long,
but they really help get a tree rooted  after a few months.

i use a lot of coffee grounds. they dont compact over time
they have a pretty well balanced C/N ratio, worms adore them, as do fungi
and i get 50lb free near my house every few days at Starbucks.
then i put compost, cardboard, grass clippings, and leaves on top.

[buddyguygreen]

Yea i cant get a backhoe in that area, i could've had a dump truck of soil brought in but since im doing everything in stages the dirt would be sitting in my drive way for awhile. The reason i like to buy it is its a mix of various soils and organic material and i can also use it to make my own mix which i do and stretch it out farther but its really just a bunch of peat moss and i could get it cheaper for bulk but the peat moss is harvested in many locations in pristine areas and each batch has a different smell so i like to get a variety of organisms.

I didnt know about the electrical company so thanks for that info im going to check it out. my friend had one of his trees mulched so ive been using a lot of that.  and ive incoculated it with myceleium but nothing thats really edible but im going to try growing some shrooms in the garden for cooking.

The only reason im making these holes so deep is mainly the water and temperature for the type of tropical trees im growing so i never have to worry about them. I made a bunch other just 4 or 5 feet all over trying to connect them just for veggies and random sub tropicals and what not.

Ive been using a lot of leaves i sweep up from the neighborhood, I also have a tea bag compost piles that works great for plants, never used coffee grounds before. Sounds like your doing an awesome job building your soil, your definitely going to be seeing good results soon.

[raimeiken]

I wish it's that easy to dig deep holes here in AZ. digging any more than 18 inches is a nightmare.

I bought a tool like this though and it's been a life saver. Digging deep holes to get better drainage in our hard compact clay soil here has never been easier for me.

[buddyguygreen]

Much sympathy for you people on hard clay. if i was your situation i would put as deep of hole as i can with that little tool everywhere i was to put a tree and fill on top of the clay a foot or two instead of digging it up, so like a raised bed on the clay.

[fruitlovers]

I wish it's that easy to dig deep holes here in AZ. digging any more than 18 inches is a nightmare.

I bought a tool like this though and it's been a life saver. Digging deep holes to get better drainage in our hard compact clay soil here has never been easier for me.

That looks like a bit like a post hole digger. That won't work here. You wold break that tool on our rock. Here we use something called an o'o bar. Don't know name in english, but it looks like a giant 5 foot long metal chisel. Pneumatic jackhammer also works well here.

[raimeiken]

yes it's a post hole auger. We have spots that are rocky as well and that's when I use a san angelo bar to pry out big rocks, which sounds like what you're describing.