Author Topic: Not enough Durian Discussion  (Read 54302 times)

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #225 on: October 10, 2021, 10:30:31 AM »
Kradum is self fertile and an excellent early pollinator.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #226 on: October 15, 2021, 05:28:52 AM »
I read a funny article. Apparently, some Australians in Canberra smelled a gas leak and called firefighters. No gas leak, just durian. Since Australia has not followed the lead of some Asian counties and banned durian from some public spaces, it seems this sort of thing now happens with regularity. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/firefighters-scoured-an-australian-neighborhood-looking-for-a-gas-leak-they-found-a-durian-instead/ar-AAPyaue?ocid=msedgntp

I have never had durian, only read stories and watched videos of other people eating it. But, I once cleared out a room with some Limburger cheese, so I think I have a pretty good idea of durian's effect on people.

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #227 on: October 17, 2021, 07:33:49 AM »
At my office I had a durian and marang I thought contained but there were complaints of odour. I accused the complainers of being anti-fruit crusaders but I lost there war. Security had been looking for a gas leak as I found out later.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #228 on: October 17, 2021, 10:12:22 PM »
Finca, sounds great hopefully the seedling that I got exhibit those traits :D It's gonna get a bit of extra attention now!

Haha, humans rejecting perfect natural foods and even doing it passionately. I guess some are used to fried wallpaper glue and road kill. Atleast wallpaper glue has some inherent certainty compared to fruit but it's for sure not epicurian fare like marang and durian...

A friend told me he have one tree (seedling) that have had fruit on it continiously since last year's first flowering and it's flowering now again with one fruit still hanging. (though it's a very, very low yeilding tree). A 100 of those could maybe supply enough for a year around consumption :D
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jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #229 on: November 22, 2021, 07:02:06 AM »







Update on the large tree I cut down to graft onto. I was advised to leave at least one branch or run the increased risk of the tree dying. I was concerned I may not get any new shoots lower down on the trunk ( I want to start the new tree as low as I can) and so Trina suggested ringbarking the tree around 50% of it’s diameter to stimulate new shoots below the cut.
As you can see it worked well!! … the lower pictures are from a couple of months ago just after I cut it.
We will have a go at cleft grafting onto several
If the new shoots soon
Cheers Jim

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #230 on: November 22, 2021, 11:35:28 AM »
Nice work.  I’m doing something similar with marang/terap.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #231 on: November 23, 2021, 07:56:12 PM »
I would love to try and grow durian, but the cruise ship I was on at the time refused me re-boarding with my precious seeds. The security screener said he could smell me coming a mile away. :-\
Of course, the big problem was that I had bought a durian at the farmer's market, then sat down and ate it and saved the seeds.
I had to sanitize my hands four times, up to my elbows, before they'd let me back on board...!
My husband said it was way worse than when I brought the noni fruit on board.

Cheers,
Carolyn

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #232 on: November 24, 2021, 12:28:47 AM »







Update on the large tree I cut down to graft onto. I was advised to leave at least one branch or run the increased risk of the tree dying. I was concerned I may not get any new shoots lower down on the trunk ( I want to start the new tree as low as I can) and so Trina suggested ringbarking the tree around 50% of it’s diameter to stimulate new shoots below the cut.
As you can see it worked well!! … the lower pictures are from a couple of months ago just after I cut it.
We will have a go at cleft grafting onto several
If the new shoots soon
Cheers Jim

That is an interesting technique. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #233 on: March 08, 2022, 08:08:41 PM »
hows everyones durian travelling along?  Last night we had a massive storm come through took down a native tree at my place 30cm diameter, flattened all my paw paw, avacado tree and bent over a few others.  It tore the shade cages for my durian apart and unfortunately snapped off part of the top of my Penang 88, it will survive and bounce back but man I was frustrated about it.

fruit nerd

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #234 on: March 09, 2022, 05:02:16 AM »
A few of our young fruit trees got a bit roughed up, my last banana with fruit fell over. Spent about an hour cleaning up this afternoon.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #235 on: March 09, 2022, 09:08:45 PM »
There where strong winds here too but have lots of shelter belts and wind breaks so not affected much even here on the coast.
It's like a forest and not an orchard here, they support each other and special windbreak tree's and palms too. Even 15-20m durian is ok. They survived the last strong cyclone long time ago "Rona" so hopefully they will survive next cyclone, they take a tropical low easy, don't know how we will go in cat 2 atm. Getting some edible vines in so that will help hold things together if correctly managed.
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Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #236 on: March 09, 2022, 09:24:14 PM »
Cassowary Im the complete opposite to you my property is ex cane field completely cleared and surrounded by nothing but cane fields, i have some protection from the SE due to a creek tree line but these storms that have been belting is from the NW i cop the full force of these being out in the open exposed flats.  I remember Rona 1999 that was a high cat 2 low cat 3 winds around 160km/h at low isles from memory (would have been stronger where is crossed at cow bay).

Hopefully as i get more fruit trees established they will provide some wind break for my prized durian but if we get a category 5 all bets are off and unless trellised like salleras farm there is not much hope.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #237 on: March 09, 2022, 11:35:41 PM »
Why don't you put in heaps of palms and wind break rows? We are close to the ocean so worse then a cane field, we dedicate land to valuable and suitable wind breaks.
I think in the end it is beneficial, reduced soil surface wind induced evaporation, reduced sun burn on some tree's too since the windbreak will shade some (depending on spoacing ofcourse). Lucena have sparse canopy so great to shade some plants.
And if you use fabace they grow fast by themselves without adding nitrates. Lucena, inga, peachpalm, coconuts, go for it. The micobats love the palms as they have nectar all around the year almost and sysygiums too they like to feed on. I'v put in hundreds by direct seeding so their roots are as good as possible.

I assume trellis only works as intended if it's very well managed, the tatura trellis systems I have seen have not been well managed, slack lines and tall tress growing out of the trellis, I doubt the trellis will help if the tree canapoy is much over the trellis. Haven't seen much of fruit forest farms system but heard it worked for some strong winds some years ago and they apperently use the trellis to protect durian from rain.

And for some tree's keeping them at 3m would mean pruning about every 4-5 months. And you gotta twist the branches to the wire or clip it onto there.
I don't know how people can get a net profit long term doing this?! maybe it's due to crazy prices in southern capitals? Not to cheap to put in the trellis and the labour is intensive when I calculate it.

Dabai and Durian just wants to grow up tall, to mention two species that's gonna be a struggle to dwarf on a bean trellis (in plain english) :D

Peace
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 11:43:08 PM by cassowary »
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Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #238 on: March 10, 2022, 01:03:40 AM »
Cassowary i wouldn't think palms provide much wind protection Im pretty sure cape trib farm reported that after RONA the palms failed miserably there as a wind break.

The trellis system to me would be a no brainer if one was farming in this area commercially and relying on durian etc to make an income as there is just too much time loss if the trees get knocked down as Peter Salleras has mentioned you cant do business that way.  Me being just a backyard grower if my trees all get knocked down sure it would be heart breaking but not the end of the world my trees do not provide income to feed my family.  In cyclone LARRY category 4 Peter has said that he lost something like 450 soursop trees and probably even more Durian trees amongst many others about 95% of his trees, 5 years later he had moved to trellis and copped cylcone YASI category 5 directly over the top of his farm and he didnt lose a single tree on trellis.

You are correct though the cost would be huge on the scale that Peter has done, i have been to his farm and he must have thousands of trees (durian and many others) on trellis, they were all maintained at around 4m from what i could see when i was there but yeh that would be a huge amount of labour on that sorta scale.

other big farms (zappalas at bellen den ker) are also moving to trellis, they however are not using the V trellis method peter uses but a normal vertical trellis using concrete posts and wires, they also got near wiped out in cyclone LARRY.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #239 on: March 19, 2022, 06:00:51 AM »
I am curious to know how durians grow in clay. My property is on the side of a hill, towards the top of the property, it's pretty much just clay. Down the bottom, were the bulk of the fruit trees are we have good deep topsoil. This week, I planted a durian in the transition area. The top foot was nice topsoil but then I hit clay. I know drainage can be an issue with clay but being on the side of a hill, we don't has much of an issue with drainage. I want to plant more in this area since being closer to the house, we can take better care of them. In addition, it'll be easier to scare off the cockatoos :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 06:04:16 AM by fruit nerd »

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #240 on: March 19, 2022, 01:50:53 PM »
I think it could be ok. I see durians grown in clay here in CR. If the soil is acidic I’d add lime and rock phosphate. We add rock powder to balance the soil out as well. All those amendments can be top dressed.
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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #241 on: March 19, 2022, 05:00:26 PM »
Fruit nerd I’m on heavy flat clay which stays wet at this time of the year constantly. My durian are on mounds and they are doing really well. The rest of my fruit trees are just planted directly into the clay without mounds and are also doing really well.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #242 on: March 20, 2022, 05:43:01 AM »
Thanks for the information. Sounds like it should do okay then.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #243 on: March 23, 2022, 03:44:55 AM »
From what I have seen Farm stay is an orchard with no wind break setup, just one row (10 palms maybe) of dwarf coconuts and 20 on the driveway as ornament and not as wind break as spacing if wrong and they are to tall, need new comming.
The report I read, I think it was colin who said he didn't like the mess off the coconuts and the fronds afterwards, but they still stand ( i kown I have seen them) and would have supported the surrounding tree's mechanically and also reduced the wind.
If they are keept well regularly (de fronded de nutted for jelly nuts) prior there won't be such mess with fronds and coconuts. And a wind break is a totally different concept then a row of dwarfs for drinking coconuts.
I know Farm stay is doing very well now with implementing alley cropping, that will help to reduce wind damage some.

The RFA Inc (Rare Fruit Australia) have a good book with good principles for wind breaks and how to manage wind for driveways etc. entering to the "paddock".
I have probobly visited 15 exotic fruit orchards in AU (small to big) and none have dedicated windbreaks implemented, some just have jungle around, that's it.
So in this area in my opinion and experience, proper wind breaks haven't even been tested against cyclonic winds. There's still huge amounts of natural tree's/forests around so nature does seams to be able to stand cat 5 cyclones quite well. I know of a man who survived yasi on a sailing boat tied to the mangrove, the mangrove is still there and he told me the story.
I don't say forests don't get damaged but it's not as bad as orchards and recovery is quite fast too in a natural forest due to self seeding and errosion reduction.

I like what I heard Peter say in one youtube video.
- I do consultations sometime and the workers will say - well we have to use fertilizers beacuase nothing grows good here.
- I turn around and say what about the forest there, how's all that stuff growing?
- ohh that's natural, that's why that's growing there.
- that's right, that's what we are gonna do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8RJcrgmHtM

In my opinioin it would help this area a lot if people looked to nature a bit more :D

Peter S, have named the place Fruit Forest Farm if i am not wrong, but I can't really see the forest, to me it's more like an orchard system. Not hating on what they do or anything like that i respect what they do for what purpouse and they have been helpfull :) . But the name could be misleading to new growers and visitors that associate "that system" with a "forest".

Clay shouldn't be any issue. But I am unsure if you have 100% clay, there is probobly silt and some rocks in there too. Do a soil structure test at home.
A family who have been farming in this area for over 70 years, put down plastic underneath the durian to collect and pool the water bellow the planted tree, according to them it works well, no issue with wet feet and dead tree's. I have had simialr expeience with using flood irrigation, they thrive, but if the soil get's to dry they suffer immedietly.
I guess in 1-2 years the plastic if penetrated by roots and does not hold as well.

And with the tierra preta they used clay pots. That creates small bowls in the soil where water can catch in the soil. I think this is probobly more important then the char they put on. When I was researching this before I came a cross one elder who said the pots in tierra preta are very important.
If I could do the same an come out positive finacially I would do it, at this time i don't know how to manufacture huge amounts of clay pots from my subsoil clay. Maybe a TLUD kiln for char to make the pots, double the goodness.

Peace
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Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #244 on: March 23, 2022, 07:13:28 PM »
Cassowary I remain doubtful that durians left to grow to their natural size will survive a category 5 system direct hit in any form whether they are surrounded by forest or not unless trellised in some way.  Maybe the odd one will survive.  Natural forest handles category 5 cyclones because no doubt the natural rainforest trees here have 100x stronger root systems etc that are able to cope with this.  Durian are pathetically weak.

Zappalas had 1000 trees before cyclone larry cat 4 and didnt even cop a direct hit they lost 900 trees.  I would like to know which variety's (other than macrantha) that survived this as they would be the ones to chase but no doubt this information is not available.

Peters farm at fruit forest farm is surrounded by rainforest something like 160 acres of his property is rainforest but the actually orchard areas are mostly set out in rows on trellis.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #245 on: March 25, 2022, 03:57:48 AM »
The food forest we are designing have many fruiting vines that tie together the canopy. As a natural trellis, actually it's stronger then 100mm pine poles and 3.2mm ss wire.

"Durian is pathetically weak" That's mainly durian plants that are root bound I would suggest, if one look up some data from a botanical garden in netherland one can see that some tree's never develop proper roots after once being root bound (circled). Thats why I have engineered pots, that allow the tap root to grow straight and root pruning for lateral roots. And in general nothing older then 12 months is planted since they would have reached the bottom of our 400-500mm special pots.
And many farmers use heavy equipment which compacts the soil around the tree and that makes it hard for roots to spread, or the soil was compacted to start with and the tree's didn't manage to anchour into bedrock. That is a major issue. Also graftage and other cloning methods make for less wind resistant tree's.

The tree's roots themselves lock into each other, that's why we are planting them tighter then in a traditional orchard system (no lawn between etc) and with 5 atleast 4 layers (ground, under, canopy, apex vines). In the forest roots cross over each other too.
Tree's also have to be traiend to their natural growth form which is almost always one main trunk with laterals (durian, mangosteen rambutan etc.), Masanobu fukuoka did lots of research into this. Canpopy of fruits that have to be picked like rambutan will be maintained shorter so access to the fruit is still possible.

And some roots will graft together through insoculation.
That's how some natural stands of forest work in high wind areas, and I think maybe some mangrove also do a lot of inoscualtion and creates a wide and strong anchour system.
Also the forest will handle the rain pour better during a cyclone since there'se so much OM etc, so less likely to fall cause soil is slush like is possible in a common orchard up here.

Have never seen zappalas land so can't comment on what system they run exactly but i suspect that there was no extensive wind break system during larry.

I can talk and write about this for hours but I guess the cyclone itself will prove the (towards natural) food forest systems worthy or worthlessnes :D

Hey tropo, one of the graveolens seeds that come from Daintree could be a Suluk type durian since there's lots of zibethinus around that graveolens tree (cross pollination). So if you plant some graveolens seeds you might get something close to a suluk (the hybrid).

Peace
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Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #246 on: March 25, 2022, 09:21:59 AM »
That’s very interesting Cassowary. What vines are you thinking of introducing into the orchard?
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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #247 on: March 28, 2022, 12:17:23 AM »
willughbeia, elaeagnus, passiflora, uvaria, cassabanana, Borneo grape vine, also epiphytes like monstera and vanilla but vanilla won't be very strong. Also pepper but not to strong unless old, atleast that's my expereince with the native pepper. Trying with pithya too but don't know how that will work out for wind protection, might be to heavy.
Already training them up our wind break plants and other tree's but have to learn how to maintain the vines so that they don't overtake the tree's and make them weak like the native vines do if left to themselves. So gotta learn what vine works best on what tree, weight, vigour, how much it covers the canopy, thick blocking foalge or sparse etc.

Having cassabanana up a mango helped to get a bit more fruit this year, idk maybe it protected some flowers from rain. Or maybe it didn't do anything, hard to quantify but I expect there to be some unforeseen benefits. However I expect some tree's to fruit less then optimal since sun is reduced and maybe some vines will interfere with picking of the fruit. But if they can survive even a cat 2-3 cylone i think long term yeilds, like 30 year would beat the un-supported fallen tree with no windbreaks. And total possible yearly yeild for my given area for any crop is lower since space is decdicated to special wind reducing plants. In our dabai area the number of dabais are lower then what malaysian ag department recommends since windbreak tree's will take space.

Some tree's are almost vines in habit, like all my Artocarpus limpiato grows sideways. Probobly to get more sun but durian, mangosteen etc don't grow like this here. And some native tree's grow like this to, almost like a tree vine.

If you have more edible vines to add, please :)

Peace,
cassowary
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Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #248 on: March 28, 2022, 01:18:10 PM »
Interesting ideas.
I don’t have the experience you have with cyclones, we’ve never had one where I am.  But I did experience a category 5 in Fiji long ago.  It was interesting how different trees responded.  The mangoes I saw did well by letting their foliage and branches blow away while other trees tried to hold on but we’re completely blown over.
Which brings me to a point.  With more foliage in the tree it would seem like it would make it harder for the tree to resist being blown over.
How about pandanus as a windbreak?
Another vine could be plukentia.
Suerte
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #249 on: March 30, 2022, 06:39:56 PM »
Yeah you brought up a good point there, many huge mangoes still standing here too :D
Your right, the vines will make it heavier and likely increase the wind resistance so could make it fall over, probobly will try and keep the vines pruned so they don't get to big. Lucena and other fabeaceace could be good candidates since their leafs are small and canopy usually sparse. I have coconuts in the windbreak to as they are deep roted and hopefully will act as anchours to hold the windbreak up.
Have some pandanus but don't like the spikes on the fronds, hard to manage. There is a smaller one with decent fruit that was here when we came, grows to about 4 m so could be good for the low portion if one can handle the spikes.

Oh yeah plukentia, maybe if I can get some seeds some day.

Peace
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