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Messages - Lauta_hibrid

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The R.E.S. Method - Fruit From Seed in 1-2 Years
« on: January 20, 2025, 05:32:16 PM »
I have done my own practices and have achieved some interesting results, but it is very difficult to manage, especially in cold places, where the cold and dry wind would burn the bare and erect stem. I was able to achieve rapid flowering at 3.5m on rampurg, rough lemon, bitter orange chinotto (a seed without dwarfing). Also on a hybrid lemon Genoa x C. maxima. But some did not produce fruit, only flower. I am leaving this method and changing it in a way... at 2.5m I take a branch from the top and graft it below so that it forms a new top lower down. I suppose the theory is that: "the more the cells of the apical bud divide, the more this tissue ages." I need to clarify the things that I did "not so well".  I don't graft many of them, they are on their own roots. I didn't always do the "ringing", without being polite... I heard them called "scraping", and I didn't fertilize and take care of the pests 100%... all that may have delayed my practice. I advise trying less quantity, not like me who has 40 combinations and 100 plants in my collection 🤦. With a particular project, perhaps you can be more rigorous and achieve better goals.

2
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Are limequat seeds usually nucellar or zygotic?
« on: January 12, 2025, 10:42:09 PM »
I have experimented a lot with Eutis limequat, I have several crosses ... and from hundreds of seeds planted I see that most are zygotic, although there is a possibility of seeing 2 embryos per seed. I have also pollinated them with very distant relatives such as Triphasia trifolia and I obtained seeds that did not have any hybrid characteristics, that means that it confirms the idea that it can produce nucellar embryos ... but in a very very low percentage. Estimates are 95% zygotic and 5% nucellar. I also crossed it with Poncirus and they all came out trifoliate.

3
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Hybridization of bananas and plantains (seedless) to create new varieties.
« on: January 06, 2025, 09:11:35 PM »
Here I bring you updates on the processes. As I see, I have already crossed Musa ornata x banana burro and Musa velutina x Dwarf cavendish and x banana burro. But now a banana is blooming that I don't know what it's called elsewhere, I got it with the name "Orito", in Brazil it is called "Ouro", it has small fruit, very sweet and a tall plant (3m to 4m to fruit). According to the bibliography it is an AA diploid. I hope to get some seeds from it, last time I didn't see any pollen on its stamens even when rubbing them with the sheath of a knife (something is usually dragged with this method). Luckily some M. ornata fruits are already fattening, showing the formation of seeds... in about 5 months the fruit may be ripe to sow the first seeds.

If I have plenty of any cross I could try to send Rob seeds! 👌🏻 By the way, do you get Microcitrus inodora seeds there? I would be interested in getting them







4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: January 06, 2025, 08:38:41 PM »
Here I bring you updates on my resistant lemon hybrids. It is a Genoa x Yuzu lemon. In my experiences, the Genoa lemon has more than 30% of zygotic seeds and I know the plants well when they are born, they give leaves without wings or articulated petiole (as seen in the last photo), or they also have some extensions along the petiole, as traits of their ancestor (the sour orange). These grew with well-formed winged petiole and one pigments well like other Yuzu hybrids, a dark brown color, different from the lemon. This is how I can differentiate the hybrids from the clone at the beginning. We will not know the resistance, but we can guess that it will be more resistant than the lemon.





lemon clone seedling


5
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Hybridization of bananas and plantains (seedless) to create new varieties.
« on: December 24, 2024, 11:26:29 PM »
For those who see this post, but do not dare to write, I share with you my first experiences of crossing wild bananas (with seeds) and seedless, to pass on the parthenocarpy genes.

!!!!I got cavendish pollen!!!!

The variety I got is Cavendish Dwarf, it measures 1 meter or so. And I pollinated Musa velutina flowers. The idea is to get something ornamental and edible, imagine a pink banana 😊





6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Recreating the grapefruit - C. maxima X Morton, troyer, poncirus, kumquat, Moro,
« on: December 14, 2024, 11:04:38 PM »
To add something interesting, I made a cross that I never saw the result of, I think I have the largest amount of kumquat hybrids that exist hehe. and I still need more. it is Kumquat Nagami x C. maxima. it is the smallest citrus (well, kumquat hindssi it would be, but it is not edible, although in the future I will cross it too 😁). the idea was to create a giant kumquat, or something with edible skin... we will see what happens. the strange thing is that the leaf morphology (it is the only thing we can analyze for now), the kumquat has leaves with short and articulated petioles, but hindssi and meiwa usually throw out leaves without articulated. Nagami also does it sometimes... so my question is what would happen in this genetic fight? well, it seems that both messages collide, since leaves without articulated, articulated and some with half articulated and wings and half without articulated appeared.  I thought that the message of dividing the leaf into 2, foot and blade, and the extension of the first part like wings, would be something that occurs separately, but it seems that the message is mixed up and what on one side are well-separated wings on the other is part of the blade... I don't know what you think, it surprised me.





The latter is the leaf of a young C. maxima plant.


7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Recreating the grapefruit - C. maxima X Morton, troyer, poncirus, kumquat, Moro,
« on: December 13, 2024, 02:05:30 PM »
Quote from: SoCal2warm on December 09, 2024, 12:23:45 AM
Quote from: Lauta_hibrid on November 25, 2024, 03:04:40 PM
Grapefruit comes from the hybridization of C. maxima with an orange, but my question was what would happen if one of the parents was changed?
Grapefruit is a specific cross that has a specific origin.

There are several traditional Japanese varieties where C. maxima was introduced into mandarin (C. reticulata) breeding. (Think for example about the slightly sour more aromatic flavor of Satsuma mandarins)

The result will be a little bit different from the typical grapefruit flavor.

These fruits will be, in many ways, analogous to grapefruit, but they will not truly be real grapefruits. They will be similar but they will not have quite the exact same type of flavor.
This can be difficult to describe.

I can get into the chemical components of the aroma, if you want. One of the most important aroma compounds in both pomelo and grapefruit is nootkatone. It occurs only at very low levels but it's very potent at those low levels. It smells a little in the direction of mouth-puckering rhubarb but also a bit of a cleaner green and woody dimension. 

But in grapefruit, in addition there is 1-p-Menthene-8-thiol (also called "Grapefruit mercaptan"), which smells kind of distinctively like "grapefruit" but in a completely different way. It was a subtly sweet aroma that is slightly pungent (slightly mild smell, in a way, yet "potent" in feeling at the same time). And strangely, if you compare it to the smell of coffee there is some subtle underlying similarity in the feel. It brings to mind more of a "pink grapefruit" feel. This almost feels more like edible grapefruit candy than natural grapefruit.

The distinctive aroma of orange (and especially Valencia variety of orange) comes from a substance called valencene, which is actually related to nootkatone, but doesn't have the oxygen atom that nootkatone has. They do kind of share some similarity in overall underlying feel but are also very different. Valencene does not have the rich mouth-puckering slightly "dirty" rhubarb feel that nootkatone has.

I think another important compound you'll find in many of the more aromatic mandarins is sinensal. It has a "bright" and "juicy" feeling, but also some "orange-citrus" tonalities like D-limonene does. Again, it's very reminiscent of "orange" but in more of a different way from valencene.

This is only a basic overview only touching the surface. Of course the full story is much more complicated.


When you cross a pomelo with a mandarin, you're going to get something that's a little bit similar to tangelo in flavor. But of course it will be more sour yellow and aromatic because it will have a higher percentage of C. maxima ancestry than a tangelo does. So maybe somewhere between a tangelo and a "grapefruit" sort of feel, but not with all of the distinctive aroma of a real grapefruit.

Keep in mind your offspring will likely be tasty but will contain a huge number of seeds. 

The C. maxima x C. reticulata hybrids tend to have a little more hardiness than regular sweet oranges, so should grow well (or at least acceptably) in climate zone 9b.

About making a "new grapefruit" it's just a way of saying... since there is the "New Zealand grapefruit" which is not a grapefruit, but produces a fruit so similar that it is called that, there is also the "Paraná grapefruit" which is a variety described in Argentina but came from Asia. It is almost the same but very juicy and sweeter and less bitter than the line of grapefruits that came from the Barabados (the "real" varieties). That's why I call it that. If the grapefruit becomes quite resistant, imagine if you change something in the origin we would make something new inspired by the original. Anyway, thank you very much for that contribution, surely at some point I took everything you explained there to speak well founded hehe. For now I show you my first seedlings of Pummelo x poncirus flor grande and pummelo x troyer. And the variety of pummelo that I used does not have a name, it has many seeds (26 seeds).  And I think we all deduce the triploidy because Chandler belongs to the same breeding plan as Oroblanco, which is defined as the result of crossing 4n x 2n.
Pummelo x troyer



Pummelo x Poncirus:




8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Recreating the grapefruit - C. maxima X Morton, troyer, poncirus, kumquat, Moro,
« on: December 13, 2024, 01:53:54 PM »
Quote from: Till on December 09, 2024, 02:20:05 AM
Thank you, SoCal2warm, for the background information. It will be difficult indeed to recreate a grapefruit. But perhaps something very similar is possible. I mean some citrumelos have a taste very close to pure grapefruit. Dunstan and Batumi Citrumelos come very close to it. Would they be sweet you had something like a grapefruit.

From where do you have that Chandler is triploid? I have never found that written, neither on an official homepage of UCR, nor in articles of the breeder, nor in private conversation. I fear that you have confused Chandler with some other Siamese Sweet crosses. I also doubt that Chandler is seedless because of triploidity. The reason will just be that it is self-incompartible to its own pollen as are all pumelos.

My Chandler was surprisingly seedless when cross-pollinated with Poncirus and other Citrus. I only got one seedy fruit after I had pollinated with African Shadock x Poncirus. I thought that Chandler accepted the pollen of A. x P. better than other pollen because it is half pumelo. This interpretation contradicts, however, the experience of others like Alan who were more successfull in producing Chandler hybrids.
And now I think I got it: My Chandler blooms abundantly but only the very last flower of a flower umbel produces a fruit no matter how it was pollinated. So all of my many pollinated flowers fell off except the very few flowers that opened at the end of flower period and that I did not pollinate any more. So this year, I used a trick: I cut off all flowers except the pollinated ones, namely only one from every umbel. And see what happened: These flowers formed the fruits. Now that is not proof that Chandler willingly accepts non-pumelo pollen. But I am optimistic that the nice fruits that now hang on the tree indeed contain seeds.
What speaks, by the way, against the theory that Chandler is triploid is that it abundantly produces pollen. Triploid plants are usually pollen sterile.

I quote your post just to mention that after a video that talks about the metabolism of plants I mention "... the leaf makes photosynthesis, that generates sugars that travel to the bud, which is at the base of the leaf, and that stimulates it to form flowers instead of branches and leaves... that is why when a ring is made the sugar increases, since. or it can travel to feed. the root, and stimulates flowering. when there are many flowers the hormones suddenly drop (the hormones are stimulated by sugar) and so the plant throws them away. that is why my technique that I use from that moment on I call it "removing competition", meaning that I remove the flowers and buds that want to form outside of those that pollinate... it is a lot of work but I have managed to get all the fruit to be pollinated by me alone...

9
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Hybridization of bananas and plantains (seedless) to create new varieties.
« on: December 12, 2024, 10:12:06 AM »
I wanted to add something from a study. The idea is that "yes" it is possible to obtain a hybrid between domestic and wild bananas in a single generation, and at the same time obtain triploids and parthenocarpic ones.

This was always expected, according to the bibliography, when using a tetraploid as a "Pollen Receiver", but it is difficult since they are usually parthenocarpic and therefore do not give seeds (or give very few). In these registered experiences, with details of the resulting populations, a tetraploid AAAB called Fhia 21 was used as a pollen donor, and the results were 95% of plants were parthenocarpic! and half were triploids, thus achieving plants of cultivable and fruitful quality in a single generation. Let us understand that this banana has limitations, such as that it has a "B" genome which can awaken a virus that is in its genetics and kill the plant. And the other thing is that it is a banana for cooking, so almost all inherited those characteristics. Now I will ask the question: is it possible to achieve those same results with the other FHIA? Like the 17 which is a tetraploid with Gros Michel genetics? Or with FHIA 01 which is with "Plata Ana"?  We will see that in a few years when I manage to get my FHIA 01 and be able to experiment.

And another question arises: can triploids also do this? Because if you read the bibliography, it talks about generalities, but it leaves you with bad and confusing ideas, since as you can see above, everything can be unpredictable with triploids... another example using triploids and giving the resulting populations. This is from the origin of the cooking plantain Pita 01:

Records show that when pollinating AAB x AA (wild) banana, 7% triploids, 55% diploids and 38% tetraploids are obtained.

10
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Hybridization of bananas and plantains (seedless) to create new varieties.
« on: December 05, 2024, 08:39:06 PM »
This is a project that I had in mind for years, since it is my favorite fruit, but more than a year ago I started to study its feasibility. I collected experiences from scientific work and from researchers specialized in its biology and improvement and they helped me take the last steps and this year I managed to do my first practices... I still have to see if the fruits start to gain weight 😊

I will start by presenting the tools that I managed to abstract from everything published that allows us to take a strategy:

Edible (seedless) bananas often have something called "residual fertility." This means that they may (sometimes) have some viable pollen and some functional ovules. This would be our main tool.

Yes! Even the Cavendish has been seen releasing pollen... rare but possible: hawaiibananasource on Instagram shows their experiences and photos.

So we have two options: we can use an edible banana as a mother or we can use one as a father. This is because important traits such as sterility (no seeds) and parthenocarpy (developing fruit even without seeds) are heritable and dominant traits.

Which one to choose? : The most fertile representatives are usually the diploids: groups AA and AB and tetraploids (such as FHIA). But there is also more fertility in those that have M. balbisiana genetics (AB, AAB and ABB).

What would be the other parent? : It would be a wild or fertile banana (with seeds). Some varieties that can be found are used for the garden: M. acuminata zebrina, Musa ornata and Musa velutina (those are the ones I have).

If we use triploids as pollen receptors: this usually gives mostly tetraploid plants. An example of this could be Blue java (ABB) x Musa ornata (OO) using ornata as a pollinator would give a banana: ABBO (tetraploid).

but nothing in biology is predicted, so reductions in ovule meiosis can also occur and diploid hybrids can emerge (apple banana (AAB from Brazil was crossed and gave an improved diploid AB) and triploids.

If anyone is interested, I can upload more information. It would be great to have an intervention with everyone to share experiences. In addition, there are not so many varieties in my country and therefore I won't be able to do certain things like use Blue Java, which is an interesting variety for me.

11
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Bananas.org dead?
« on: December 05, 2024, 08:10:25 PM »
I made a post here to talk about banana hybridization, which is a topic I have been studying for 2 years. I'm going to see if I can gather that information, because "it is possible to cross them." This is because of residual fertility. My path of experimentation began this year so I will be posting updates for anyone who wants to do it. I came up with this idea from the posts I saw on Bananas.org. I would like to contact those who posted their experiences on that forum.

12
Tropical Fruit Buy, Sell & Trade / I'm looking for a real Blue Java plant. Better if it's in Miami.
« on: December 02, 2024, 09:57:37 AM »
Hi, a friend is traveling to Miami and wanted to get the real Blue Java, since any plant is sold on the Internet except the correct one. If anyone has it, can you contact me?

13
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Hybridization in bananas (Musa sp.)
« on: November 29, 2024, 09:49:42 PM »
I have news for you!!! 🤯🫣😍 This is the first time I've seen abundant pollen on a seedless banana. According to an American researcher from Hawaii, he told me it would be Bluggoe, aka Burro, which is ABB type.


so as I planned, last year I crossed ornamental bananas with seeds, this year I will manage to cross seedless bananas 💪. I found this flower on 2 plants and I got something like 20 flowers and just one looked so spectacular. I hope to also find a good flower with a lot of pollen in a cavendish 💪. I don't know how the genetics of these hybrids work since the pollen of triploids is haploid, so I don't know if there is "crossing over" (the stage where the chromosomes mix). I will continue investigating. Maybe 33% will come out with the chromosomes of M. acuminata and 66% of hybrids with M. balbisiana, so there is a high possibility that they will come out with seeds... but in a plan with large flowers maybe I will get some seedless and fruit-bearing plants 🤤. I will keep you posted if the fruit of M. ornata, which is the one I used as a mother, gets fat.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Recreating the grapefruit - C. maxima X Morton, troyer, poncirus, kumquat, Moro,
« on: November 25, 2024, 03:04:40 PM »
Grapefruit comes from the hybridization of C. maxima with an orange, but my question was what would happen if one of the parents was changed? So I proceeded to combine it with several species. Part of this is to create a more cold-resistant version, that’s why I used a large-flowered poncirus, but I also proceeded to mix it with something that has orange genes but is more resistant, that’s why I already have the hybrid x citrange troyer seedlings and this year the fruit of Máxima x citrange Morton (for me the hybrid most similar to an orange) is already fattening. I have 2 fruits forming and we will see later if I get enough seeds. This year I sent a friend seeds of the hybrids with troyer and poncirus and they arrived safely to the US, so he can try them in very cold conditions, maybe for the Máxima x Morton I can send some too.


15
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Hybridization in bananas (Musa sp.)
« on: November 21, 2024, 10:10:48 PM »
The first sign that seedless bananas could be hybridized was through a forum called "bananas.org", from there and scientific works, and then talking to Gabe Satcher-Smith who has Instagram: @hawaiibananasource I was able to figure out the other part. I would like to create a small community and share information since there is very little access to these things. I made a list of plants of interest to achieve hybrids, but on that Instagram you can see some of the hybrids that he created. What I am looking for this year is to see if I can find some pollen, although the variety of sweet seedless banana (called "ORO" in Argentina and Brazil) is supposedly AA (although I don't know if the one I have is the correct one), I have not seen pollen, compared to the photo that Gabe uploaded to Instagram. There is a lot of scientific work that talks about this, the percentages of fertility of pollen, but I have not seen any pollen with the naked eye.  I may have to work with Faith, rubbing the stamen of these species and then putting what I drag on the stigma of the banana flower with seed. As soon as the M. ornata flower opens, I will do my first practice. If you want to know which species you can use, ask me, I have more information than available plants 😅. In the photo you can see what the pollen of Cavendish looks like... a wonder since it is the one I most wanted to cross.


16
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Hybridization in bananas (Musa sp.)
« on: November 20, 2024, 10:51:30 PM »
After a year we have already achieved the first seedlings of M. ornata x M. velutina. This cross is the same as the one that formed the M. ornata Royal Purple. I will make my own version ☺️. I don't have a good climate for bananas but I have achieved this first step. My idea is to cross the bananas with seeds with the seedless banana this year.



Talking to a researcher from the US who lives in Hawaii, I was able to figure out how to do it. It seems that there can be small productions of pollen in seedless bananas and by taking it you can pass on parthenocarpy and "female sterility" to the hybrid. Even Cavendish can have useful pollen. So I'm waiting for the first flowers to see if I can get something 💪

17
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Making Labels
« on: November 20, 2024, 10:37:59 PM »
Maybe it's the least elegant of all hehe 😅, but I have a method that mixes economy, recycling and efficiency. Basically I cut the lid of an aluminum soda can lengthwise making small strips, I put it on a not very hard wood and I engrave the name and date with a non-working pen. I make a hole and pass an aluminum wire through to tie it. And that's it, it doesn't rust and the name doesn't fade, you can see the engraving when shining a light on it.


18
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Xie Shan in CA
« on: November 12, 2024, 10:13:19 PM »
I have had some problems grafting Poncirus, the thing is that I thought spring was good for everyone, but Poncirus here is grafted when it is warmer, that is, summer. In spring it is just awakening and so it is more difficult to graft. Keep that in mind. Second is that there are methods that give you more time for the graft to stick. I usually graft by covering the graft with a bag that also leaves a leaf from the foot inside... that gives humidity to the face of the grafted variety. Once I grafted in autumn and the graft survived the whole winter, and in spring I discovered it when I pulled the first new shoot. The last tip is to "make a lemon tree from seed". You use the lemon to maintain the variety that you buy from the CCPP and then you graft by taking material from there. The lemon sticks easily and will allow you to practice with that material more times. Many times it is a problem of lack of practice, mainly if they are difficult varieties. In order not to lose them, I always graft on lemon 💪.  I hope that some of my experiences will be of use to you.

19
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Graft method with leaves attached
« on: November 12, 2024, 10:05:31 PM »
I have used a similar method for "mini grafts" or "micro grafts." Sometimes the root of a valuable finished seed rots or, as in the case of microcitrus, you want to give more vigor to the small seedling. In grafts with such small material, it happens that it does not have enough reserves to stick and then sprout. In addition, the presence of leaves prevents the sap from retracting in these mini grafts. Also, to prevent them from drying out inside the bag, I usually leave a leaf from the graft root inside the bag with the mini graft (which also has leaves). This leaf from the root usually accumulates moisture when it transpires inside, and helps the graft leaves stay hydrated. It has worked for me in difficult cases.

20
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Orange tree 'Cipo' in hanging basket?
« on: November 12, 2024, 09:57:59 PM »
Hello! I'm from Argentina and here it is called orange vine, but it comes from Brazil, so the name there is orange "trepadeira". Its growth is decumbent, meaning that the branches cover themselves downwards, and they generally sprout on the lower side of the branch, but when they are green the sprouts are flexible. I advise you to direct it upwards with a tutor to the height you want, fighting with its habit, and once you have it at the height you let it grow alone... it would be good for a pergola, since even if it is high its branches will go down and hang the fruit near you, they will not be up high and unreachable. That is my best advice. The flavor is very good compared to others in my yard.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Bitter orange Chinotto for hybrids that bloom in 4 years 👍
« on: November 10, 2024, 10:46:32 PM »
I'm waiting for this year's seedlings to sprout so I can get some statistics and use numbers to figure out how many hybrids and how many with dwarfism. Overall it looks like there are: 11 seedlings, 5 hybrids, 2 of which are dwarf. But I still need seeds to sprout. I saw this in my hybrids with P.T., which being trifoliate are easily revealed. I don't know what the recessive trait is, but I could see that it's possible for it to appear in the first generation. Using these numbers it would be: 45% zygotic, 18% chance of dwarfism. They are still low populations, but I'm still studying it. For next year, pollinate Chinotto x Flying Dragon and X Morton. We'll see what comes out of all this ☺️. The atypical growth characteristics of Chinotto and Flying Dragon would be spectacular to see together.

22
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 08, 2024, 10:57:54 AM »
For those who are interested in these crosses with poncirus or Citropsis and Australian citrus, I am leaving you this graph with plants to scale to see the results. It is a pity that it is very difficult to find photos of these experiments.



23
Citrus General Discussion / percentage of zygotic seeds in key lime (and two hybrids x Yuzu and citrus cavia
« on: November 07, 2024, 12:27:38 PM »
These are the hybrids I got from different pollinations. You can see my Key Lime x Citrus Caviar and Key Lime x Yuzu. Both are given away by their shape and the anthocyanin growth they express. This allowed me to get some statistics on the percentage of hybridization for Key Lime. Keep in mind that my plant is called "subtle lemon" here, so I don't know if it's the same strain used in other countries, but it is the same species: C. aurantifolia. There may be more hybrids yet to be discovered, since the plants are small, but for now the rest are all the same to the naked eye.
There were 18 seeds, from which 21 seedlings emerged and I only obtained 2 hybrids. So I would have only 11% zygotic seeds. That is considerably less than what I have obtained in Genoa lemon and Rampurg lime when crossing it with Poncirus (30/35% zygotic).







24
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 05, 2024, 09:51:13 PM »
 
Quote from: mikkel on November 05, 2024, 12:13:43 PM
Crossbreeding Citropsis with Citrus was unsuccessful for a long time, and it was only recently (around 15 years ago) that wakonai was discovered that fertile hybrids could be produced. Malcolm W Smith, one of the discoverers of wakonai, achieved this in Bundaberg.

https://journals.ashs.org/jashs/view/journals/jashs/138/1/article-p57.xml
in that work he mentions that they are sterile, although the novel thing was that they formed fruit, but they are sterile both in pollen and in the inability to form seeds. I never understood why crosses are made with things like Mandarina Nova, it would be better with Poncirus or Citranges... 🤷. but I don't know, worry, give me citropsis and I challenge you! haha. I thought someone was selling seeds on Ebay, but it was very doubtful. and yes, I also saw the fruit of the somatic hybrid. what I also didn't understand is why chromosome duplication is not done in sexual hybrids, that has managed to recover fertility in many cases, since their chromosomes would once again have the parity necessary for meiosis.  (maybe it was done but I don't know the documentation... who knows) but well, I will continue with my attempts to cross triphasia which is even further away than citropsis... and limonia is still young, but it would be fantastic to see what comes out if I mix it with citrus (it is more closely related than Citropsis). Luckily I already have my monoembryonic Poncirus 💪

25
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Why is Poncirus not considered Citrus?
« on: November 05, 2024, 11:10:39 AM »
Thanks to everyone for contributing, it has left me less confused. There are human criteria as to where something begins and ends, and therefore decisions are made based on the age of the separation of the branch that forms Poncirus and on broad genetic differentiation. Taxonomic classification is a classification system and decisions are made or ideas are postulated, there are no absolutes. Interfertility is a criterion but it does not justify the assignment of a genus, we can see this in Anona, which has countless species but is almost impossible to cross. Regarding Citropsis, it is possible to hybridize with Citrus but it is very difficult, and these crosses reach a point of sterility. I do not know of any cross that can give a next generation as far as I know. I myself tried to cross Triphasia with limequat and only got somatic plants, taking into account that Eutis limequat is very easy to hybridize and very unlikely to produce somatic embryos, however it gave me 5 seedlings identical to Eutis.  Here I am attaching a diagram that I downloaded some time ago, showing the related species and closely related genera. I had marked them, showing those for which there is evidence of crossbreeding.

In theory, if citropsis can be crossed, all the inner branches can too. With triphasia it would be too far to achieve it. There is evidence of crosses with Severina, Atalantia, citropsis and when my limonia gives me the green we will see if I can achieve the cross 💪☺️

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