The Tropical Fruit Forum

This is a project that I had in mind for years, since it is my favorite fruit, but more than a year ago I started to study its feasibility. I collected experiences from scientific work and from researchers specialized in its biology and improvement and they helped me take the last steps and this year I managed to do my first practices... I still have to see if the fruits start to gain weight 😊

I will start by presenting the tools that I managed to abstract from everything published that allows us to take a strategy:

Edible (seedless) bananas often have something called "residual fertility." This means that they may (sometimes) have some viable pollen and some functional ovules. This would be our main tool.

Yes! Even the Cavendish has been seen releasing pollen... rare but possible: hawaiibananasource on Instagram shows their experiences and photos.

So we have two options: we can use an edible banana as a mother or we can use one as a father. This is because important traits such as sterility (no seeds) and parthenocarpy (developing fruit even without seeds) are heritable and dominant traits.

Which one to choose? : The most fertile representatives are usually the diploids: groups AA and AB and tetraploids (such as FHIA). But there is also more fertility in those that have M. balbisiana genetics (AB, AAB and ABB).

What would be the other parent? : It would be a wild or fertile banana (with seeds). Some varieties that can be found are used for the garden: M. acuminata zebrina, Musa ornata and Musa velutina (those are the ones I have).

If we use triploids as pollen receptors: this usually gives mostly tetraploid plants. An example of this could be Blue java (ABB) x Musa ornata (OO) using ornata as a pollinator would give a banana: ABBO (tetraploid).

but nothing in biology is predicted, so reductions in ovule meiosis can also occur and diploid hybrids can emerge (apple banana (AAB from Brazil was crossed and gave an improved diploid AB) and triploids.

If anyone is interested, I can upload more information. It would be great to have an intervention with everyone to share experiences. In addition, there are not so many varieties in my country and therefore I won't be able to do certain things like use Blue Java, which is an interesting variety for me.

Grapefruit comes from the hybridization of C. maxima with an orange, but my question was what would happen if one of the parents was changed? So I proceeded to combine it with several species. Part of this is to create a more cold-resistant version, that’s why I used a large-flowered poncirus, but I also proceeded to mix it with something that has orange genes but is more resistant, that’s why I already have the hybrid x citrange troyer seedlings and this year the fruit of Máxima x citrange Morton (for me the hybrid most similar to an orange) is already fattening. I have 2 fruits forming and we will see later if I get enough seeds. This year I sent a friend seeds of the hybrids with troyer and poncirus and they arrived safely to the US, so he can try them in very cold conditions, maybe for the Máxima x Morton I can send some too.

Good morning! With this exhaustive research work I started to get interested in the genetics of citrus... but there is something I had overlooked, why was Poncirus used as an external group to Citrus, while all the other genera were reconsidered as synonyms of Citrus and for which it is proposed that they should be changed to Citrus. What reason makes a single branch, with a single species and perfectly interfertile with citrus, be placed as external to the genus? Before, it was considered that Poncirus could be Citrus trifoliata, that is, they included it. It should be noted that Severina is also another external group, but this is logical since Severina belongs to an independent branch in which other species of the genus Atalantia are found (basically Severina would be synonymous with Atalantia).
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25447

Does anyone have a clearer idea of ​​why it is considered a "non-Citrus" here?

 
Good morning, I used these varieties in the graph because I wanted to compare shapes and sizes, although I don't have them to make a correct scale, and since they are the most mentioned, I mention their quality. Regarding their origin, I only have these parents implied, but I don't know the origin of the others. What information can you give me? Is any of them ripe before the frost? Which one has less resin, less acidity, less aftertaste of poncirus, less bitter and less resin. I only tried Swingle, but I would like to know which others are suitable for my breeding plan. I would also like to know about the proportion of zygotes.

Hello everyone, I am pleased to show you another of my achievements this year. It is a hybrid of these two species and for a while I suspected that I had mixed up the seeds, since I also have a kaffir lime. Now that it is flowering, I see that the buds are almost identical to C. maxima, which clarifies the relationship.

I have discovered, through my practice, that the characteristic aroma of the kaffir lime is a very intriguing thing. It is not the smell of lime per se, but a particular characteristic, a smell like the "essence of lime", something more synthetic, very intense. I have made crosses with lemon, some of which did not inherit that smell, crosses with limequat, with kumquat and many did not inherit it. Until one time I smelled the leaves of a rare grapefruit that had a different fruit, and its seedlings smelled like a kaffir lime. Also when I picked the fruit of C. maxima, I also perceived it in the wound at the end of the fruit. My conclusion was that both plants must have the expression of that chemical substance in their genetics.

To conclude, I continued my experiments and crossed C. maxima x kaffir and analyzed the seedlings... it's strange that many of them didn't smell and others did, the same thing that happened to me with the lemon 🫣... Ultimately, I don't know how that genetic explanation works, but it's all a mystery. Perhaps an ancestor of both had that genetics and that's why it's in both in different measures and at different stages or parts.

In short, here I bring you this plant:

,leaves with short petiole sometimes subtly winged or wingless (like lemon), thick green leaves like C. maxima, more intense anthocyanin buds than lemon 🤷. flowers in clusters like C. maxima, slightly anthocyanin in bud stage. sizes of the same close to C. maxima. few thorns. its leaves smell like kaffir lime.

It flowered exactly at 4 years old (its siblings have not yet). If grown vertically, it reaches 3 meters in height (the technique is called Res, I call it "vertical cultivation").

There was a scientific work where they were looking for mutants of Poncirus and they found 6 variants, some zygotic, and the peculiarity was that they flowered quickly. The analysis population was 250 plants as I recall. That is why I gave the hypothesis that with 250 seeds I would be able to reach the statistics of finding mutants.
I managed to select 2 plants that seemed suspicious to me, one that had redder leaves before falling off, and another that was born with 5 leaflets per leaf. So here I present my findings. If you want, you can contribute your conclusions or ideas.

After 6 years of this hybridization project, I am already getting results with the first blooms. I already have 6 "varieties" created by me:
 C. maxima (flowered in 5 years)
Rampurg x lemon genoa (flowering in 2 years)
Chinotto puro (flowering in 4 years)
Chinotto x lemon (flowering in 4 years)
Chinotto x Willow left mandarin (flowering in 4 years)

Here is the importance of Chinotto as a parent species!! According to my experiences it is capable of flowering in 4 years, pure or hybridized. It is a bitter orange tree, but from the "bittersweet" group.
You can drink its squeezed juice alone without sweetening.
Its hybrids are quickly detected because they would mostly be the ones that grow normally, while if they are zygotic they would grow with dwarfism, although they rarely inherit this genetics (it seems not very heritable).
 Taitri is one of the most resistant hybrids with Poncirus, surpassing Citranges, and since Taiwan is a bitter orange, crossing it with Chinotto might do something similar in resistance but with less acidity. I would like to share this and my hypothesis with you, but also see if you have more information.

For now I am about to harvest my first fruits pollinated with Poncirus (with large flowers).
hypothesis in my practices: Chinotto is a bitter orange tree with a dwarfing mutation, short internodes, no thorns, many flowers and bittersweet. Before it was separated as a separate species Citrus myrtifolia, which seems absurd to me since it is only a mutation, for me the correct name is Citrus x aurantium var. myrtifolia. since if it self-pollinates it usually gives normal growth plants identical to the bitter orange tree (that was my first experience).







These photos are images of leaves of Chinotto that grew from seeds (without dwarfing), hybrid and Willow left mandarin on the right. Also a photo of this hybrid with white buds and a photo of Chinotto x lemon Genoa with dwarfing anthocyanin shoots and red buds. If there is luck, maybe I can show the fruit later 🤗

I have seen that many like this fruit and I find it interesting for various characteristics, which is why I am embarking on a hybridization project with it.  The first thing is that I do not have an accurate source so I am trying to decipher if what I have is a real one, that is why I ask if anyone has a photo of the leaf, flowers and unripe fruit that would be useful to me, although the characteristics match. from what I have experienced.

Dekopon es un híbrido complejo de {(satsuma mandarín x trovita orange = kiyomi tangor)x ponkan mandarin}

No member has less than 10% zygotic embryos but kiyomi (due to genetic oddities) is 100% zygotic.  so my question is did dekopon inherit anything from that monoembryonic/zygotic?

dekopon has notable qualities to make resistant hybrids:

1 - good flavor, smooth and low acidity (good for hybridizing with more acidic and cold resistant such as poncirus and its hybrids)
2- Its low acidity means that although it is harvested early (because it is not an early fruit) it is edible and that is good to eat before frost.
3- another desirable quality is that it can pass on large size to its children, the absence of seeds, because it is regulated by what seems to be a dominant "gene", because if we see it went from Satsuma to kiyomi, and from this to dekopon (all (they inherited the auto-infertility gene from their pollen).  Keep in mind that what takes up most of the fruit are the seeds in the case of poncirus and many hybrids, or in yuzu.

4- Dekopon is a fast bloomer, although some say that it takes years to reach real sexual maturity and bear fruit.  but this is not bad, on the contrary.  a sudden rapid flowering could be a source of pollen to be used in more complex F2 hybrids or backcrosses.
Once I have planned my project, I show you my 20 Dekopon x yuzu seeds. Before, I planted other Dekopon x Morton seeds.  Next year I'm going to try x poncirus to see how they turn out.  I'm in Argentina so I'll tell you the months invested according to most of you, maybe someone will be excited about it and take it into account to complement my projects 😁👍






Here is an example of a hybrid from Japan and its parents (it uses kiyomi in its genetics) gives a glimpse of how good it would be if you made {(citrus x poncirus) x citrus}, that would be the example in case the flower blooms quickly. hybridize and you will use its pollen to make a second generation.

One of the first rare species I found when starting my collection 5 years ago was the Kaffir lime.  Its abundant aroma and its rare leaves, purchased from well-known citrus fruits, were the reason I started using it for my entire breeding project.  According to various scientific works, this diagram specifies the location in the evolutionary tree of citrus (I was compiling research results to carry it out, but the final conclusion is mere speculation on my part since both relate it to C. micrantha and C. latipes, only use morphological relationship to decide).


About its aroma: I have noticed that other species also have that aroma, I noticed it thanks to my diverse collection.  Some of my Citrus maxima, when breaking the leaf at the base, or smelling the broken shaft when removing the fruit, that part released the smell of kaffir lime for my attention.  also in "possible hybrids of C. maxima they seemed to release it by scraping the leaves of their young seedlings, and on citrus maxima seedlings as well. It may be that it is a plesiomorphy (ancient character of a common ancestor). but if someone had the experience it may be possible share it here, I remember at one point someone from France was talking about it. I also have some hybrids of C. maxima x lemon (I had doubts about their ancestry due to this phenomenon, it could be that I made a mistake on the label of the seeds so that I still doubt them) they had this smell.

Is the smell inherited?  : It seems that yes and no, for those who propose that this strong trait be passed on to the next generation do not have many hopes, it is rare that a species without hybridization has genes that do not thrive in a dominant way... but I do not have either Latipes or micrantha to know if its wild relatives give off that smell.  In lemons, 3 out of 8 plants have a kaffir smell, one has a milder smell and the 2 that remain have a strong smell.

lemon x kaffir: its forms are the most diverse, it must be because the lemon is a hybrid and both C. medica and bitter orange characteristics appear (which is also a hybrid).

all my crosses are:

Genoa lemon x kaffir ( 3 of 8 with various odor and pigmentation in the growths.)

Nagami kumquat x kaffir (2: both odorless, one slightly pigmented and only the edge of the leaf, the other not)

Limequat eutis x kaffir (1: no smell and no pigmentation of new growths)

Citrus maxima x kaffir ( many seedlings (20 possibly, a few with a smell but they are still young, I have not seen pigmentation yet because they were not exposed to the sun)

kaffir x orange (there is no smell yet, they are very young and go slow)

And here at the end I leave you the fruit forming from my multiple attempts to cross this plant that constantly produces flowers so it will throw everything at you if I didn't insist 😅🤦






How my hypothesis is that kaffir and micrantha are related (maybe it is the domestic form of the second) I have kaffir hand x buddha hand fruit (imitating what formed key lime) we will see what comes out if a lime type or lemon type.  💪I will keep you updated, and if you have questions I am here 😊👋

It is somewhat confusing where they come from since they are ancient species, but there is some research work, using genetic markers, that is allowing us to understand their ancestry and perhaps clarify where their resistance to cold comes from.

I have to search more, because I no longer remember what name the article had where it showed that Yuzu came from crossing a wild Chinese mandarin x ichang papeda.  It would be good to get someone from the forum who is from that area of China and goes out to look for these ancient seeds that would be a good contribution for resistant genetics.  On the other hand, yuzu has generated other hybrids such as sudachi and Ichang lemon.  but I just found an article that ends up clarifying where the motherhood of ichang lemon comes from: the C. maxima.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.0c07894

Good morning, my name is Lautaro and I am trying to generate a new variety through hybridization.  I always liked bananas, Musa sp., and genetics and thanks to fate I was able to find a couple of varieties and species of my interest.  I have not seen anything on the forum about this topic so if there is already a thread, let me know, so as not to repeat information.  The bananas that we know are originated from a hybridization of two species M. acuminata and M. balbiciana and created the Musa x paradisíaca (the one we know without seeds. My idea is to hybridize to create new varieties and perhaps make some mutations to ensure that they do not have seeds. The species I have are M. ornata, M. velutina, Orito banana (M. x paradisíaca), Musa acuminata microcarpa var. Zebrina and some patio bananas of unknown cultivar. This is not just an idea, I was already able to pollinate musa ornata with M. velutina and I am waiting for its fruits to ripen 💪☺️.


1°- Musa velutina
2°- Musa ornata
3° Musa acuminata zebrina (from internet)


Here you can see the first green ovaries that were pollinated that same day (it had not yet released its own pollen)

Hello 👋☺️, my name is Lautaro and 5 years ago I started a project to create new varieties, with various purposes.  The forum has provided me with a lot of information so I wanted to share some of my experience along this path.  Within my experiences of creating "cold-resistant" citrus fruits I managed to create: Genova lemon x small flower Poncirus, Rampurg lime x small flower poncirus and Nagami kumquat x Citrange troyer.  and for this year many more!  🫡