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Messages - Skandiberg

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Favorite coldhardy rootstock
« on: February 05, 2025, 08:35:46 AM »
Thank you, Skandiberg for clearing that up. That is good to know.

I bought the FA5 from Quissac in France.

https://www.jardin-ecologique.fr/

They sell out pretty fast usually, so I put myself on the mailing list to receive an alert when they would have a new batch of rootstocks.

There are other nurseries in Spain that also ship to the Netherlands.

You're welcome.

2
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: February 04, 2025, 09:43:48 AM »
Wow, those precocious yuzu seedlings sound great! Let us know if they start producing fruit. I hope that taller one really proves to be hardier.

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: February 04, 2025, 09:31:26 AM »
Uhh, if I remember well, something like 0,5 percent but I am not sure. My memory is not to be relied on.

I had only one pot so I just added a tiny bit of gibberellic acid to some ethanol to make it dissolve in water easier. And added water to the mix. I had no idea how much I used of it because I can't measure such small quantities so it was absolutely hit and miss. I will expose those poor Nova seedlings to a few experiments but that's all I need them for.

But if that seedling with very narrow leaves keeps that leaf shape in the future, it may indicate that something happened, probably due to the treatment. I wondered if that single preleaf is some kind of weak third cotyledon that developed as a result of the treatment, during the germination process. I see no other explanation to its existence, besides being pollinated by some Poncirus-like plant but I guess that's not likely to happen in a normal Citrus plantation. Anyhow, we'll see. If it stays alive.

4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: February 03, 2025, 03:55:48 PM »
Well, the pill that contains colchicine is available only for prescription. So I was left with ghiberellic acid which I ordered.

I had a pot of Nova mandarin seeds that were germinating at the time when it arrived. A few seedlings had just come up by that time. They look normal. But a few of the others that came up later look somewhat different. There are also 2 polyembrionic ones among them.

The leaf shape is different on some of the later seedlings. Those leaves are not like the normal, big and slightly roundish leaves of a mandarin at all. They are narrower and often curled. I found a seedling with two cotyledons which has a single preleaf before the first leaves, just as if it was a Poncirus relative. But this preleaf is big, not like the usual small thin preleaf of the Poncirus-like plants. And the first normal leaves are very narrow, as if it had nothing to do with Citrus. It looks like they were affected by aphids or something but they weren't.

One seedling died. The growing point turned brown and the seedling just died before it could show its first proper leaves. Now another one is doing the same. It may be happening for completely different reasons, like wrong treatment from my side. But all the others look fine.

I don't know if the different leaf shape is the effect of ghiberellic acid or not but I think so. As to what this effect will mean in the long run (if anything at all), I have no idea but I hope they will stay alive and I can raise them to fruiting stage. And I don't know if Nova seeds are zygotic or nucellar to begin with. It's possible that the different leaf shape is the result of natural variability of Nova seedlings, I don't know. But it can't be a coincidence that the untreated seeds put out normal seedlings while a couple ones that were met with ghiberellic acid during the process of germination put out seedlings with different leaves.

These seedlings are still very small so maybe I shouldn't even bother with the shape of the first leaves and get ahead of myself but the difference I see is clearly visible. I hope it's possible to make it out from the pictures.




This is the one with preleaf and narrow leaves:







Others also have narrower leaves but not as radically as the previous one. These leaves may become normal when they completely unfold.






5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Favorite coldhardy rootstock
« on: February 03, 2025, 06:50:10 AM »
Solko,

Lenzi primarily uses Carrizo rootstocks now. I am not sure what they used in the past though.

6
Rei,

Thank you for the photo report! It will be very useful to see how your plants grow through the years.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardy Pomegranate
« on: January 27, 2025, 01:24:18 AM »
There is an 'Acco' pomegranate in the neighbourhood. This is a compact variety and it ripens relatively early. The fruit is not that big but the inside is really dark and tastes good. Very sweet.
I advised the owner to cover it for the first winter. She did so the plant suffered no dieback. And now, a couple years later, it handles our winters easily. The coldest we had was about -12⁰C/10F in the last few years. The plant is about 2-2,5 meters/6-7 feet high. It was 50-60 cm/2 feet high when I bought it for her.
The plant is not very productive now but I guess it is because there is a bigger tree in the street that partly overshadows it. Besides that, it produced fruit in the second year after planting so the potential is there.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A non bitter larger Poncirus?
« on: January 26, 2025, 06:33:08 AM »
I have just visited the owner of 'Bajusz'. He provided some more information on the plant.

We agreed it would be interesting to find out if it's zygotic or not so I will do some pollinating on it this spring. So next season's seedlings will be a good project.

He also added that he had a potted lemon tree at his terrace. That may be an explanation for the very different looking seedlings I have of it. I guess it is zygotic. I didn't know if the different seedlings are the result of self-pollination or some other pollen. Maybe both. But these are some of my young seedlings I have:











These look normal. But look at the next one:



One of the side leaflets is significantly smaller. I will keep an eye on its next leaves. And there is one which has a monofoliate looking first leaf:



I know these are just the first leaves so I shouldn't make conclusions at this point. But they are different, that's for sure. I will know more after a few weeks.

And the owner just mentioned that the flowers are very fragrant. They have a citrusy smell. Interestingly, its sibling which has bitter leaves, kept a few leaves that look like this:



I have two bigger pots of seeds in the garden waiting for spring to come. I expect some odd ones from that batch.

9
Hello Rei,

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the detailed report. I am especially interested in the development of your N30 and Tokushima yuzu.

From the weather details you shared, your climate is quite close to mine so if anything grows well there, it will be indicative for me, too. Good luck with your plants!

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The R.E.S. Method - Fruit From Seed in 1-2 Years
« on: January 20, 2025, 03:53:49 PM »
Thank you for posting all this!

I have some concerns like how to achieve such a tremendous yearly growth (obviously their climate in Florida helps them a lot) and how to bend the top back without breaking the shoot itself. But I guess it just needs some practice and experimentation to do it right, and it won't be a problem afterwards.

It would be interesting to know which Citrus refused to produce faster.

Anyway, thank you for sharing all this information with us. It will be very useful for those who are just starting out with their seedlings, including myself.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: January 09, 2025, 01:37:38 PM »
Ilya,

Thank you for the tip! I will check what that is. I haven't heard of oryzalin.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: January 09, 2025, 11:22:30 AM »
Till,

I have read the same. But I think it would be worth trying to see if a triploid or tetraploid mandarin has a few degrees more hardiness, even at the cost of losing some of the fruit quality.

Colchicine is not available here. There is some medicine that contains it but it can be bought only for prescription. So I must try ghibberellic acid which can also be applied to that purpose. And this morning I ran into a study that was about shortening juvenile phase in Citrus seedlings. Ghibberellic acid and benzyladenine were mentioned, in conjunction with the amount of temperature and light.

Ghibberellic acid is freely available so I ordered a pack of it. Some experimenting can do no harm. I have a pot of Nova mandarin seeds that haven't germinated yet so I will apply it on them.

13
I see them. I experienced a very similar occasion when I posted pictures a few months ago. I didn't see them for another day or two while others did. Something weird is going on.
And after a while I received no emails of the incoming messages for over a month. And now I have emails again. I didn't change the settings so I have no idea why it happened this way.

By the way, thank you for the report, Jim! Your Prague is a most peculiar animal indeed.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: January 07, 2025, 06:24:38 AM »
Thanks for the tip, that's a very good idea! And it's quite hardy by itself already.

Can you tell me when it ripens?


15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« on: January 04, 2025, 01:31:29 PM »
Yes, that's right, thanks for the correction!

I meant the edible ones but didn't make it clear.

I also heard Marumi mentioned as the hardiest edible kumquat on more than one occasions. However Eyeckr posted some old scanned articles in another forum a while ago, and I read there that Nameiwa had survived some 8 F, if I remember well. I think those were records from the original breeders, I really enjoyed reading those papers. There was a number of them, all on Citrus breeding from the old days.

If anyone is interested, here is the link:

http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopic0941.php

So they are both good choices.

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Fukushu X PT seed
« on: January 04, 2025, 09:12:41 AM »
Orangedays,

Thank you for the report!

As I have read, Marumi, Nameiwa and OP Nagami are usually mentioned as the hardiest kumquat varieties. But if I got it right, your thin Fukushu seedlings survived 13 F after their first growing season in ground. And now, one year later, a handful of them show no freeze cracks yet. I think that's pretty good, considering they are on their own roots.

Do you remember how old your seedlings were when you planted them in ground?

It seems you might have selected a few Fukushu plants that are a tad hardier than the rest. If I were you, I would mark them and keep an eye on them. Maybe you can check how much dieback and bark damage they suffer by the end of this winter. If they prove to be significantly better than the rest, they may be worth being grafted on PT rootstock and planted in ground to see what happens.

A hardy Fukushu would not be a bad thing to happen.




17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Creating a new citrus chimera like Prague Citsuma
« on: January 02, 2025, 12:59:35 PM »
In the description I found they mention that Fukumoto is very picky when it comes to rootstocks. It is incompatible with C-35, and showed some problems on Carrizo and Swingle. But Volkameriana and sour orange are okay and pure Poncirus, too.

I don't know if it's correct but if you ever get round to trying to form a chimera of Fukumoto, probably it's a good idea to avoid C-35, Carrizo and Swingle, just to be on the safe side.

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 02, 2025, 12:43:32 PM »
Yes, Brad was super helpful. I asked him to ring the alarm if he ever stumbles upon anything among their rootstock trees that tastes good.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Creating a new citrus chimera like Prague Citsuma
« on: January 01, 2025, 10:34:31 AM »
I have just read that, based on Californian growing experiences, 'Fukumoto' sweet orange has a tendency to form chimeras and mutations. Given that it's one of the earliest oranges, ripening from October, it might be worth experimenting with this one and Poncirus as a new chimera if anyone has it.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 31, 2024, 08:07:11 AM »
You're welcome!

I thought it would be useful for each of us. And Brad was super kind to provide all this information.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 31, 2024, 02:25:37 AM »
Hi all,

A few months back I asked for some taste reviews concerning the rootstock varieties at Lyn Seeds. Now I have them. If admins think it should be removed to the dedicated thread of these varieties, feel free to do so, but they were discussed in this thread so I post it here.

A big shout out to Brad who was kind enough not just to say which is better, but he also took pictures for me and even asked his wife's opinion on the one he thinks best. So dear Brad, if you ever read this: thank you again!

So, as a reminder: he thinks X-639 is one of the latest ripening ones, and it tastes very bad, sour and bitter, while the fruits are also fairly small.

And here are the others.
























Additional information from him:

None of this is very scientific.. I just sampled two fruit per tree at one time of year, so the information shouldn’t be taken as definitive.

The fruit on the trees were left unthinned, and the trees are watered, fertilized, and otherwise cared for as seed trees, not for fruit production. I don't think this would have a dramatic impact but just want to add that disclaimer. The trees were all grafted onto carrizo rootstock and are about 8 years old in the photos.

I feel like C-57 is the closest to a decent fruit. The flavor is quite sour/acidic, but some people like to eat very sour things. The slightly larger size and ability to remove the peel make it much more attractive than the other two. There are more seeds per fruit, but because the fruit volume is larger it doesn't feel as seedy when you're eating it. And being able to divide it into sections means you can just deal with one or two seeds at a time. Much more manageable.

The C-22 and C-54 are basically mush inside, by the way. The peel can be carefully and slowly picked off, but it's not easy or fun.

All these varieties are quite thorny.

Brad added comments from his wife on C-57:

"-Sour but not as sour as a lemon. No puckering when eating it.

-Not a strong bitter taste, very slight bitterness but it's not immediately noticeable

-Flavor somewhat similar to kumquat, but not the texture

-Adding sugar to the juice would probably taste good, or it could be used to add citrus flavor to dishes"


She ate the whole fruit pretty quickly and asked if there was  any more. Her overall verdict was "not bad at all". Just keep in mind that she likes sour flavors more than the average person, although I agree with her that it isn't as sour as a lemon."

So that's it, guys.

Happy New Year to all!

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: December 27, 2024, 03:41:51 PM »
Hardyvermont,

Thanks for the info! Yes, tetraploids can open up some new possibilities in hardy Citrus breeding.

And I highly recommend the pdf that Ilya wrote about. It seems that even the nucellar Satsuma seedlings aren't always true to their mother but often prove to be slightly different mutations which happen a lot more frequently than you would think. The only downside of it is you have to raise them until they show their crops. Interesting anyway. I don't know too much about the genetic background of plant breeding but these articles are very enjoyable.

By the way, here are the ones sent to me by the Japanese breeders.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsta/66/2/66_51/_pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifvuzl48iKAxUJ87sIHSu5DEwQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3cosfXQg2XxxNqw0Tao_xn

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423818307106

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: December 27, 2024, 06:55:35 AM »
Thank you for the info Ilya, I found the pdf. I will read it on the way home.

After reading the second document they sent me, I will try to find a link to them online and make them available.

The first one already has some takeaways for me. Tetraploid fruit is usually of inferior quality for whatever reason. And the fertility of pollen is generally lower in tetraploid varieties vs. the normal diploid ones. But Marumi had much more viable pollen as tetraploid than diploid, and the original article I linked also reported better fertility for that Satsuma. So the best way to put it is tetraploid pollen has a different fertility than the normal diploid, for better or worse.
These are useful information but I still can't imagine why they didn't test those plants for hardiness.

I will be back with links to the articles tonight.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: December 27, 2024, 03:13:17 AM »
Yes, they also wrote that, extending it to all polyembryonic Citrus. But Satsumas don't have too many seeds to begin with. Anyhow, I will buy a few kilos of Satsumas next autumn and see where I get. I found a seed in a Zorica fruit and as dumb as I am, I didn't sow it.

By the way, I have already read the first document they attached about an experiment they did and it was interesting indeed. It's about inducing tetraploid Meiwa, Marumi and Fukushu kumquats and surprisingly, they had a somewhat different behaviour. Marumi was the odd one and they came to the conclusion that it might be because the Marumi cultivated in Japan is mainly polyembrionic while the ancient Chinese strain is monoembryonic. I didn't even know that.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Satsuma
« on: December 27, 2024, 02:27:07 AM »
Well, they didn't react to my seed request, instead they kindly recommended doing it myself. I did a quick search and much to my surprise, I found a pill available to the public that contains colchicine so I think I will give it a try next year on early Satsuma seeds, if I find any.

But they attached two documents on the process and at least they took the effort to reply. This is a lot further than I got with Chinese universities who just don't give a damn.

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