Citrus > Cold Hardy Citrus
Cold hardy lemons
Pandan:
This is one is a stretch lol: heres also something on the "gul gul" or gal-gal psuedolimon (Citrus pseudolimon Tanaka) from India https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/CRC4235.html
The short desc itself doesn't mention hardiness but assuming its a native gal-gal (aka a "hill lemon") then it'd be from the colder northern regions of india, so possibly hardy
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/soghi.html - another selection from the soghi area mentioned, could just be a normal lime seedling
poncirsguy:
Harvey lemon is able to go below 10F if grafted to Poncirus Trifoliata or Flying dragon. How cold are you looking to develop. Lemons take 9 months from small flower bud to ripe fruit. Will it have time after last frost to start flower buds and be ripe to clear first fall frost and still be in zone 8 (10F)
manfromyard:
--- Quote from: Pandan on February 13, 2022, 12:19:20 AM ---I've been doing some light research on the citrus variety site:
Khasi papedas may be another hardy lemon-y base worth considering.
Kabosu is similar to zaidaidai and is related to yuzu but more acidic.
true lemons:
A "true" lemon that ripens in fall is the interdonato -
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/interdonato.html
Messinna - "The pulp is very juicy and acidic." early harvest in autumn, poor everbearer https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/messina_4121.html
The arancio is mentioned as being hardy & compact but ripening date isn't mentioned & the quality isn't prime
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/arancino.html
I don't think I've tasted any of these so far however.
--- End quote ---
Kabosu is consistently reviewed as not very acidic, almost to the point of being insipid. UCR mentions the la hck of acidity versus Yuzu and Sudachi. And people who taste them like weird fruit explorer and a few others say the same. Might want to leave that one alone..
And Hardy for a mainstream lemon is relative. A Lisbon lemon is considered hardy out west because they're comparing it to Eureka..
SoCal2warm:
The true lemon flavor comes from the original citrus species citron. But I think a little bit of the fragrance of lemon also comes from pomelo as well. The juiciness of lemon does not come (or barely comes) from citron, but rather pomelo and/or mandarin. The proportion of mandarin cannot be too high otherwise the flavor will be too "orange" rather than distinct lemon.
Ichang papeda has a flavor that is half similar to citron, it does not have the "orange" component. (Actually I would describe it as half citron and half Kaffir lime) But the flavor of Ichang papeda is still a little bit inferior to citron, I would say. So to develop a high quality hardy lemon, I think perhaps citron should be bred into there. Unfortunately citron has very little hardiness.
I have had the opportunity to taste citron, both Ichang papeda and Yuzu picked fresh off the tree. And of course I have tasted pomelo. (I have not actually had the opportunity to taste Ichang lemon though)
You could of course try crossing a regular lemon with something else, but my thought was that if you began with a citron rather than a lemon, the resulting hybrid would retain a more distinctive citron/lemon flavor, since the citron ancestry has not been diluted as much.
A direct cross between a lemon and anything else that is really lemon-like, probably is not going to be cold tolerant enough. I think at least two subsequent hybridizations will be required.
Pandan:
Thank you for the contributions so far everyone!
I posted this as a general curiousity and its turning into a nice brainstorm.
--- Quote from: manfromyard on February 13, 2022, 01:46:30 PM ---Kabosu is consistently reviewed as not very acidic, almost to the point of being insipid. [...]
And Hardy for a mainstream lemon is relative. A Lisbon lemon is considered hardy out west because they're comparing it to Eureka..
--- End quote ---
Good point on the relativity, that’s something to take in mind. Those darn californians and their fair weather lol
Thank you for informing me about kabosu.
--- Quote from: poncirsguy on February 13, 2022, 09:40:15 AM ---Harvey lemon is able to go below 10F if grafted to Poncirus Trifoliata or Flying dragon. How cold are you looking to develop. Lemons take 9 months from small flower bud to ripe fruit. Will it have time after last frost to start flower buds and be ripe to clear first fall frost and still be in zone 8 (10F)
--- End quote ---
Good question :x
with 190 frost free days in a year for us zone 8'ers we'd be cutting it so how could I work around that
Could this also be improved for in a hybrid with fall-bearing cold hardy citrus? Maybe that ripening time is something that could be overcome by hardy citrus genetics.
Would light everbearing be a good trait in a hardy lemon for fruit set?
I googled it and saw thee 9 month estimate as well but I guess there are some lemons that mature faster
later I saw that according to FL extention lemons can ripen from "4 to 12 months depending"
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/hs402
Here is a link I found that mentions other cold-tolerant cultivars - like manfromyard said, this “hardiness” is probably relative.
It mentions Genoa, Harvey as you said and Lisbon again.
Villafranca, feminello ovale, Interdonato and rosenberger were mentioned with some praise or interesting characteristics.
https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/lemon.html
--- Quote from: SoCal2warm on February 13, 2022, 09:01:25 PM ---The true lemon flavor comes from the original citrus species citron. But I think a little bit of the fragrance of lemon also comes from pomelo as well. [...]
Ichang papeda has a flavor that is half similar to citron, it does not have the "orange" component. [..] Unfortunately citron has very little hardiness.
[..]
You could of course try crossing a regular lemon with something else, but my thought was that if you began with a citron rather than a lemon, the resulting hybrid would retain a more distinctive citron/lemon flavor, since the citron ancestry has not been diluted as much
--- End quote ---
Yep, that piquant flavor alongside true sourness is what's also missing from the lemon-ish substitutes.
--- Quote ---A direct cross between a lemon and anything else that is really lemon-like, probably is not going to be cold tolerant enough. I think at least two subsequent hybridizations will be required.
--- End quote ---
Like with citranges I’m sure I’d have duds and dud-ettes before hitting something even slightly in the ballpark. What I’m wondering is how adversely would pure citron affect hardiness in comparison to lemons? How do citrons and lemons generally compare to each other in hardiness? I’m not even sure which citron would be a good start as I know less about that species.
I thought of this but didn't mention it earlier but I wonder about rough lemons (Jambiri Citrus) as breedstock. They’re a mix of citrons and mandarins.
The descriptions on those on UCR are mostly copy/pasted which makes it hard to tell if any of them have any potential. If they ARE all as cold-sensitive as the citron parent I’d assume sensitivity runs over any mandarin’s hardier genes.
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