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Messages - kumin

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Citrus General Discussion / Re: Big pot size for citrus?
« on: April 21, 2021, 06:27:50 PM »
Living an hour northwest of Longwood Gardens, these photos bring back memories. This is where I saw my first Poncirus tree. I love to visit in mid to late Winter in order to get out of hibernation lethargy. Thanks for the pictures, Brian.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: US-1284, SCS rootstocks
« on: April 15, 2021, 09:50:01 PM »
US-1284: Fruit length is 4.3 cm, diameter is 5.3 cm. This selection was developed by Kim Bowman as part of a large effort to develop Citrus rootstocks with less vulnerability to HLB.

US-1279, US-1281, and US-1282 developed during the same time period are 100% zygotic in seed production.

List of leaf images including US-1284:

List of seed production characteristics:

More info:

Excellent photos, some surprises. You had a colder Winter than I did.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: April 08, 2021, 06:09:01 PM »
Conestoga 001 high grafted on Poncirus has wintered well and has bud break within 2" (5 CM) of the apical tip. This selection is not the very hardiest, but is likely about the 6th hardiest. It ranks hardier than TaiTri and 5* Citrumelo.

The tip of this graft is nearly 10'  (3.3 meters approximately) high from the ground.

This shoot made rapid growth last Summer and continued to do so into Autumn.

Conestoga 001 after the initial Winter hardy trial.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Interstock graft
« on: April 03, 2021, 04:59:48 PM »
The benefit of doing the two grafts at once is the time saved by not needing two separate procedures with an interim waiting period. However, it's only worth the effort if there's a high percentage of successful "takes". If only the lower graft is successful, the top scion can be re-grafted. If the lower graft fails, there's no hope for the upper one.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 28, 2021, 03:48:02 PM »
Recent warm weather is driving some bud swelling on Poncirus, as well as some of the hybrids. Lows of 26 and 29 deg.F are predicted by end of week. Should not be a major problem, but is a bit of a concern after highs near 80 deg.F last week.

2 horizontal TaiTri twigs, appear to survive, a bit less resistant than 5* Citrumelo. Have dropped their leaves recently.

5* Citrumelo (Light green stems)has dropped all leaves and shows little Winter stem damage

Poncirus+ twigs show no Winter damage.

Citrus General Discussion / LSU Ag Citrus Freeze Damage Video
« on: March 25, 2021, 11:58:38 AM »
Informative video concerning preparing Citrus prior to a freeze event, and assessing post-freeze damage. Applicable for standard Citrus, as well as cold hardy Citrus.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Are lemon and limes usually grafted?
« on: March 21, 2021, 03:25:47 AM »
FOWFDG Owari scion on Flying Dragon rootstock ?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 18, 2021, 04:33:43 PM »
Walt, so sorry to hear about your losses. Did  any particular parentages have better survival rates? Did 1279, 1281 and 1282 still have the original scions on, or had new rootstock growth already pushed?

Hopefully, you can rebuild your breeding stock. More important, I hope you don't suffer too much of a setback.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: How to best graft small CCPP scions?
« on: March 13, 2021, 12:43:55 AM »
Nice, fully calloused grafts. How long have you been doing budding/grafting?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: New Jersey Yuzu Growers
« on: March 12, 2021, 10:59:09 PM »
Brian, natural gas is available 2.5 to 4.5 miles from my house, however, I'm not certain if it's available for the rural townships. It's usually available for incorporated municipalities, not farmland, pretty much the same as water and sewer.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: New Jersey Yuzu Growers
« on: March 12, 2021, 04:33:58 PM »
Yes, they also cater to a rather posh clientele. Selling profitably on a common consumer market would likely be a financial challenge. The feasibility of growing these fruits in a Winter greenhouse setting must weigh heating costs in the Northeast vs transportation costs from a more climatically adapted area.   

The agricultural area in which I live is in the process of an explosion of high tunnel construction. I'm not aware of any Citrus being grown, however. Common crops are, bedding plants, greens, strawberries, peppers, tomatoes, flowers, and vegetable plant plugs. Although not on the elite level of the Netherlands and Israel, almost every small farm has anywhere from one to a dozen cold frames, mostly toward the lower figure.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 11, 2021, 06:23:33 PM »
Due to having 2 consecutive mild Winters there are still surviving plants in the original test plot. There's a newly discovered 3 year old deciduous seedling among less hardy plants. This seedling shows no cold damage, after a mild, but long Winter. I really should take a closer look at the remaining plants to determine if there are more surprises.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 27, 2021, 03:54:02 PM »
Ilya, I'm surprised to see portions of the leaves still alive at this point. Have you encountered any deciduous 5* progeny in your breeding efforts? 5* does quite well for not being deciduous, but a deciduous version might be even better.

I'm surprised the outdoor TiaTri isn't dropping it's leaves, but the cold frame trees are partially dropping theirs.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 26, 2021, 02:21:37 PM »
 Feb 26 2021 branch condition comparison between TaiTri citradia, 5* citrumelo, and Conestoga 011 citrange.

TaiTri shows the most damage, with pitting of the bark surface. Unexpectedly, it hasn't shed its leaves. Not certain if this graft will survive the Winter at this point.

5* citrumelo leaves are mostly dead, however the bark surface appears to be in better condition than TaiTri and may be viable. Less bark surface pitting on this Citrumelo.

Conestoga 011 F2 citrange has good color and shows no ill effects from the Winter to this point. This tree is fully deciduous.

This Winter has been mild, with a few lows of 10 degrees F (-12 deg C). It has not been a serious cold test and forecasts don't indicate any in the remaining Winter.

After a night of rain the appearances are quite different.
This is an unidentified F2 citrange, with hardiness equal to, or slightly greater than 5* citrumelo.

5* citrumelo after a night of rain. The appearance is much better.

TaiTri on Feb 27 after a night of rain. The stem is a bit better looking than it was yesterday.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: tanglefoot direct application experiment
« on: February 25, 2021, 07:59:33 PM »
Brian, have you considered the "one side sticky" tape we use to trap the Spotted Lanternfly? The inside has no adhesive, so it shouldn't harm the bark. The outer adhesive is very tacky and should trap most crawling pests.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What is ‘Mandarin F” ?
« on: February 22, 2021, 03:10:44 PM »
Perhaps mandarins, or even Citrus as a whole are category "F" of an inventory system file?

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Red fingerlime seeds
« on: February 22, 2021, 01:09:23 PM »
Small lots of seeds are a bit less restricted, they are still controlled and must meet certain criteria. The quantity is limited to 50 seeds.

Can I import seeds to the US from a foreign country?
Provided the seeds are not on a U.S. prohibited or endangered list, small lots of seed can be legally imported into the U.S. provided the necessary steps are followed and the proper permit is obtained. At present there is not a fee for the import permit but there are a number of steps and the status of a particular seed species may be hard for a home gardener to determine.

In the U.S. the United States Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) is responsible for protecting animal health, animal welfare, and plant health. It is the lead agency for collaboration with other agencies to protect U.S. agriculture from invasive pests and diseases. It governs the import of plants and seeds into the U.S. to help limit the chances of any pests, diseases or weed plants entering the U.S.

Rules for importing seeds by home gardeners usually falls under the APHIS’s “Small Lots of Seed Program”. The "Small Lots of Seed Program" allows home gardeners to import small quantities of  seed without obtaining a Phytosanitary Certificate, which can be costly. Importing under the “Small Lots of Seed Program” still requires a permit and a number of steps but it is free.

The APHIS website “Plant Import: Small lots of Seed”  page lists import requirements: It provides links to the required permit form and lists resources to determining if the seed you want to import is on a prohibited list. This website from the U.K., however, is easier to read and answers most of the basic questions you may have about U.S. APHIS requirements and the process: (You will still need to apply through APHIS.)

Here is a link to the manual of U.S. prohibited plants (this link is also on the APHIS Small Lots of Seed webpage): Another useful list of prohibited seeds:

To avoid paying for seeds that may not be allowed into the U.S. determining their import status ahead of time is necessary but this may not always be easy. If in doubt, contact APHIS directly with the genus, species and cultivar (if there is one) of the seeds you want to import or wait and see if they make it through inspection or not. (All imported seeds must be clearly marked as to genus, species and cultivar [if there is one] by the foreign exporting company when they ship the seeds to the U.S. Inspection Office.)

In brief:

   1.  You check the APHIS resources and see if the seeds you want to import are allowed in the U.S., contact APHIS to see if the seeds you want to order are allowed, or just wait and have the Inspection Office determine this when the seeds arrive in the U.S. (If you opt for the last option, you won't get a refund on your seed purchase, however!)

   2.  You apply for and secure the import permit and inspection office mailing labels.

   3.  You send a copy of the permit along with a mailing label (already addressed to a U.S. Inspection Office) to the seed source (company) outside the U.S. along with your order.

   4.  The foreign company sends the seeds (clearly marked as to genus, species and cultivar) to the Inspection Office in the U.S.

   5.  The US inspection office inspects the seeds and your import permit and then sends the seeds on to you. (Any prohibited seeds, if found in the order, would be destroyed.)

The important point to remember is to secure the U.S. import permit and inspection office mailing label from APHIS before you place your foreign order. These must accompany your order. (For online ordering, email a copy of your permit and the inspection office mailing address to the foreign company and instruct them to send your order to the U.S. Inspection Office. Make sure the foreign company includes a copy of your permit so the inspection office can forward your seed order to you after inspection.)

Seeds coming into the U.S. from a foreign country without an import permit are subject to confiscation and destruction even if they would have been allowed if you had obtained the free import permit and followed the correct procedure.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« on: February 21, 2021, 02:41:50 PM »
If trees only need short-term intermittent protection, they could be planted under a skeletal framework, then only covered when then need arises. Having a durable skeleton would provide rigid protection against snow and wind. Having removable cover materials would allow for all the ventilation needed. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 13, 2021, 09:59:23 AM »
The curvy leaves of Swingle 5 Star are probably a sign of dehydration because roots could not provide enough water. My Sanford Curafora and US199 have also curvy leaves during winter and thereafter. It has nothing to do with frostbite as such leaves remain vital for a very long time.

The curving leaves on 5* are most likely genetic in origin, as this characteristic is especially prominent is vigorous upright growth, even during Summertime. I haven't seen it relating to stress, as I'm able to distinguish 5* seedlings from all the other trees by this characteristic.

Ilya may be able to weigh in on his experiences with 5* leaf characteristics.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 13, 2021, 06:26:42 AM »
Till, I presently have no plans of crossing back to pure Citrus due to loss of hardiness and number of years required to recover the required hardiness. The paths I'm interested in are crossing to edible Citrandarins, allowing the selections to self-pollinate, and crossing with Poncirus+ to maintain the greatest hardiness.
Additionally, the sooner the zygotic/nucellar status can be determined among the F2 selections, the better.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 12, 2021, 12:48:24 PM »
   At this point I'm contemplating a focus on creating crosses between the hardiest F2 Citrange survivors from the 2018/2019 Winter cold hardy trials and Changsha X Poncirus hybrids such as 852 Citrandarin and closely related selections. This would bring additional Citrus genetics into the "bloodline" while compromising little in the way of hardiness.

   Several downsides to the F2 Citrange selections are:

1. Poncirus off-flavors tend to be more pronounced in Citranges than Citrandarins.

2. Sweet Orange parentage leans toward longer periods of juvenility than Mandarin parentage.

3. At this stage the F2 Citrange selections appear to approach Poncirus in hardiness, but are likely to retain off-flavors and perhaps poor coloring. The three characteristics in their favor are hardiness, deciduousness, and at least some Citrus genes.

Benefits of using Changsha X Poncirus parentage in crosses.

1. Changsha Mandarins are more cold hardy than Sweet Oranges.

2. Adding Citrange X Citrandarin parentage should promote a more diverse genetic base.

3. Changsha Mandarins are highly colored, sweet, prolific fruit and seed bearers.

4. Changsha seediness is of little concern at this stage and is actually desirable for efficient seed production.

5. Using zygotic seed parents would streamline efficiencies by not wasting resources on nucellar seedlings.

6. If these breeding plans succeed, I hope to do new severe, cold hardiness test trials.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 10, 2021, 08:02:03 AM »
Perplexed, all my 5* seedlings show the same wavy pattern. How old are your trees? Are your trees also seedlings?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 10, 2021, 04:40:36 AM »
Ilya, the lows are the same as outside. To this point the lows have been 10° F  (-12C). The cold frame gets at least 10-15°C warmer than outside during sunny days. On cloudy, windy days there is less temperature rise.

The greatest benefit is wind protection and daytime amelioration of cold temperatures. A downside is that the stem tissues remain a bit more succulent, which in the case of severe cold temperatures could worsen bark destruction by freezing.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 09, 2021, 01:52:43 PM »
Midwinter photos of cold frame hybrids and one outdoor hybrid:

A heavier caliper Citrange seedling, nearing 3 years of age.

One of the largest Citrange seedlings, nearing 3 years of age

Monofoliate Conestoga #58 grafted on Poncirus, 16 months post grafting.

5* Citrumelo seedling.

Grafted Conestoga F2 monofoliate Citrange, 16 months post grafting.

Vigorous 5* Citrumelo seedling.

Original Conestoga #058 tree, nearing 3 years of age. Most Citrus-like of all my seedlings, also the least hardy.
#058 has the longest spines of all my trees. They are quite slender, though, unlike the stout Poncirus spines.

Out of doors Conestoga # 001, not fully deciduous, slightly less hardy than Conestoga # 11 and #10. Hardier than 5* Citrumelo, or TaiTri. This tree is 10' tall.

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