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Messages - mikkel

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1
SoCal if you feel like you are wasting your time then don't answer the question.  ;)

BocaJoe told that his or better this tree came from a citrus exhibition and was a seedling of a Changsha x Poncirus hybrid.

Is this tree still around? I thought it froze to death?

Some more information about it

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1807296/hardy-citchangsha-citrandarin-in-zone-7a-northern-va

2
It was an hybrid out of the Changsha x Poncirus group.  Probably a seedling of US852 or a seedling of an seedling...

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Mystery citrus seedling trait
« on: October 11, 2021, 03:04:42 AM »
I planted the ones in the photo in the garden. They also spent the last winter there at -11C. Most of them survived, but this summer was not good and they hardly recovered and grew very little. Unfortunately, with all citrus the shoots in August are the strongest, in spring the growth is very small. But the late shoots have no chance of surviving the winter.
I still have many seedlings in the greenhouse, I want to plant them out next year. A bit bigger than the last ones.
Overall, most hybrid seedlings have little problem with the winter itself, more with the summers.


4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Mystery citrus seedling trait
« on: October 11, 2021, 02:11:26 AM »
I'm not trying to guess the identity at all, I know its a N1Tri/Ichangstar60 seedling (I forgot to label em). Just interesting of the leaf traits thats it..

Does it mean that you mixed the seeds and are now interested in knowing which is which?  In seedlings you can expect anything as both are zygotic verieties.
I have several hundred N1tri seedlings. there are many different types and many different leaves shapes among them.
Even my 2 Ichangstar seedlings look different from each other.
But if I have to guess. The lower one on the picture is IchangStar F2 and the upper one more likely a N1tri F2.
But correctly spoken these are both new varieties and no N1tri or Ichangstar anymore.
Some N1tri seedlings:



5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Mystery citrus seedling trait
« on: October 10, 2021, 04:44:18 PM »
I would suggest an Ichangstar parentage...

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: TaiTri
« on: September 12, 2021, 03:19:56 PM »
yes. These are yours.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: N1triVoss
« on: September 10, 2021, 11:09:44 AM »
Interesting that all flowers are on the top. Even the grafted ones.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: TaiTri
« on: September 10, 2021, 06:39:25 AM »
My TaiTri seedlings have such leaves:
This is a picture from spring after a winter with -11C / 12.2F


The leaves are quite uniform on all seedlings.

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Sanford Curafora
« on: September 01, 2021, 02:12:11 PM »
It is the first time that it lasts so long. Usually they are ripe in winter.
They have the size of a small mandarine. They could be bigger, but my tree is small.

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hybrid Nin-Kat-MandarinXPoncirus
« on: September 01, 2021, 09:58:48 AM »
Ilya, it looks like a nameless plant I`ve got from Bernhard. I sent you budwood of it some years ago. It should be one of the BV types.
Is it still alive? Could you check both if they are the same variety?
Thank you!

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: September 01, 2021, 09:56:10 AM »
how can you recognise polyploidy? In Passiflora 4n varieties often have serrated leaf margins, like these poncirus leaves here.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Sanford Curafora
« on: September 01, 2021, 09:52:57 AM »
There are also 2 green fruits on my curafora, which have been hanging for over a year now.... one and a half minimum, if not more

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: August 24, 2021, 03:25:45 PM »
the main problem here in Germany is the summers. in my area, a little further north than Till, it's even worse. Poncirus just doesn't like our summers and there is only moderate growth every year. The main sprouting is in July/August, but these branches often don't survive the winter.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: June 03, 2021, 06:45:14 PM »
Thanks for the link!
Nice to see that his research has fruited.
I did a bypass graft with 5Star on a Poncirus rootstock this spring the first flush is already as twice as strong as in the last years I will try that on other plants it might give immature plants also a push.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: June 03, 2021, 05:36:44 PM »
@kumin What is Bishop Citrandarin? is it from Alan Bishop?

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: June 03, 2021, 04:27:25 PM »
@Walt, yes plans are plans and only what flowers flowers... that's the hard truth :)
I found many zygotic seedlings among the 5Star and N1tri seedlings I got as a from @Ilya. Even some monofoliate ones among the 5Stars.
These are good varieties for breeding.

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: June 03, 2021, 05:11:51 AM »
Mikkel, perhaps you are referring to outcrossing vs backcrossing within the original parents (sweet orange and Poncirus). Backcrossing should narrow the results more than outcrossing would.
The main reason I want to use the segentranges is that they've gone through a very vigorous screening for cold hardiness. The reason I want to use segentrandarins as breeding partners is potential shorter generational cycles, cold hardiness, lower off flavors, and potential earlier ripening of fruit.

In hindsight I suspect US 852 would have been a good seed source. There are a number of tri-specific cold hardy hybrids. These appear to be vigorous in many cases (Thomasville).


                           
I was thinking more of the dichotomy of hybridisations between different citrus species (species hopping), such as Pt x Orange ---> F1 x mandarin --->F2 x pomelo ---> F3 x kumquat ---> and so on
in contrast to backcrossing, where the hybridisations are limited to one parental species.

In theory, I imagine a crossing plan as follows:

F1 cross C35 (Pt x orange)

x selfing

---> F2
mass selection (like you did with the C35 seedlings)

backcross of the hardiest with Citrus

---> F3 
then: mass selection for desired traits

backcross to the same crossing partner like in F2

and so on.

Apart from the time it takes...

I would guess that by concentrating on a few traits and limiting it to one backcross partner, the variance of the offspring can be better limited within the desired traits.

The hybridisation of new Citrus species is also promising, but has the disadvantage that the number of seedlings must be larger, because the combination possibilities are simply more divers and there may be undesirable gene combinations that lead to completely different traits than in the parent species. Ilya once gave an example of sweetness, which is encoded by different genes in 2 citrus species, but the combination of both leads to sour hybrids (I hope I remember the example correctly).

Both has its reason and depends on what is to be achieved. I will do both as there are so many other factors that are involved (e.g. no flowers on a certain plant and the year is lost and so on)
but for a designed breeding program I would prefer a backcrossing scheme.

Wild hybridisation is good to find new types and new combinations.

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: June 01, 2021, 06:56:46 PM »
I use "wild crossing" only in the absence of a good English term for the opposite method of species-restricted crossings as practised in backcrossing. I don't prefer one over the other, I just feel that it is more predictable what to expect from these backcrossings (as you stay within the given genpool). I am interested in any strategy and the reasoning behind it.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: June 01, 2021, 05:31:02 PM »
Do you see a technical advantage in "wild" crossing? Or is it just your choice?
I do both or better I will do backcrossing in the future :) . But I see more advantages (apart from the long waiting time) in backcrossing, because it is probably easier to plan.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 29, 2021, 06:50:16 PM »
btw have you read about grafting on Limonia spec. (not C.limonia but Limonia the genus)? It's just something I read, but they say that grafts on Limonia flower very soon after grafting, almost immediately. But I am not sure if this also happens with immature grafts.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 29, 2021, 06:29:51 PM »
I thought if you already have a F2 (your C35 seedlings) with almost the hardiness of Poncirus, it would be a good idea to cross it with the original Citrus parent of C35. As you have an almost hardy hybrid, but with still inedible fruits, you have already achieved 1 goal. A backcross with Citrus could bring the focus to edible fruits.
If a plant had edible fruits it would make sense to cross it with Poncirus or with C35.
According to the ideal backcrossing scheme
A x B -> F1 
F1 x F1 -> F2S1
F2S1 x A / B -> F3BC1

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 29, 2021, 04:49:19 PM »
Like always,  one gardener but a hundred planners :) Sorry for being one of those planners...


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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 28, 2021, 04:06:53 AM »
Fingers crossed that there are already some plants with edible fruit! Just from theory. I would guess that a backcross with Citrus is is a good option with these F2 survivors.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 25, 2021, 05:38:52 PM »
For me TaiTri seedlings were more hardy than some 5Star seedlings this winter. Both were under a snow cover.

25
I could not find any citations on this hybrid. Could you post a link to more information?

While searching, I stumbled across this interesting list. Probably all these hybrids are history now.

https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/140015/TB252.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

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