Author Topic: Mango: a modified Walter Zill grafting Technique for the blind gardener  (Read 9290 times)

sunworshiper

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Re: Mango: a modified Walter Zill grafting Technique for the blind gardener
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2018, 10:25:38 PM »
Good advice - my tape is clear so easy to see which take.

j1mw3b

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I just discovered this thread.  Been trying to graft my mango trees using both my own scions and a few purchased.
After trying this one, I find that I have difficulty determining how deep to make the cut.  Seems like everyone else figured it out, but not me apparently. 
I make the cuts, but the bark doesn't really "lift" off as suggested it should.  Seem to more like have to scrape it off or cut it off.  Perhaps I am not cutting deep enough - hard to know.
I am color blind (red/green) so may be a factor.
Been using parafilm tape and just obtained some Aglis buddy tape coming in tomorrow. 

So... with say, a 1/2 or 3/4  or even a 1 inch diameter limb, about how deep would one make the cut to get to the cambium layer.
I am trying to create a couple of "cocktail' tree using scions from my 6 trees.

Thanks much; and let me know if I should just create a new thread as suggested.



simon_grow

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Why not leave a flap when you peel back the bark on your rootstock? A flap would also imply a beveled cut on the scionwood.


Also I like to cut across the node on my scionwood. The cambium layer is thicker there. I always make sure I cut across a node when I cleft graft, that way I'm sure that since the scion is wider at the node, no matter if it matches the size of the rootstock, both cambium layers will cross at that point.

I agree this is good advice. Leaving a flap will help hold the bottom of the scion and provide additional points of cambial contact.

I also like cutting through a node because of the additional cambial contact. The nodes are primed for growth.

Simon

simon_grow

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I just discovered this thread.  Been trying to graft my mango trees using both my own scions and a few purchased.
After trying this one, I find that I have difficulty determining how deep to make the cut.  Seems like everyone else figured it out, but not me apparently. 
I make the cuts, but the bark doesn't really "lift" off as suggested it should.  Seem to more like have to scrape it off or cut it off.  Perhaps I am not cutting deep enough - hard to know.
I am color blind (red/green) so may be a factor.
Been using parafilm tape and just obtained some Aglis buddy tape coming in tomorrow. 

So... with say, a 1/2 or 3/4  or even a 1 inch diameter limb, about how deep would one make the cut to get to the cambium layer.
I am trying to create a couple of "cocktail' tree using scions from my 6 trees.

Thanks much; and let me know if I should just create a new thread as suggested.

Hello j1mw3b,

Welcome to the forum! Even if you are colorblind, you will be able to graft.

When you cut into the cambium of your rootstock, you want to cut into it approximately 1-2 mm. How deep really depends on the size of your tree with larger, thicker trees needing additional depth in your cut.

Just push down on your blade until you cut through the soft tissue. Once you hit the hard wood, stop and leave your blade at that depth and then make the cut to your desired length. Once you make your desired cuts, use your blade to pry the bark and cambium off.

If your bark is not slipping or active, it will be difficult to peel and come off in chunks. During active states of growth such as when you see new buds popping or leaves expanding,  the bark should be slipping.

Good luck and let us know if this grave digger technique works for you.

Simon

edzone9

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Will try this method today !

Thanks Ed
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simon_grow

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I grafted one tree using Sapoteís grave digger technique last year and the graft took but the bottom portion did not heal cleanly. I think it will be beneficial to leave a flap at the bottom to secure the scion and create additional surface area for the union on the upper cut end of the scion.








You can see in the picture I posted above that the bottom tip of the scion did not heal over properly but the Union was sufficient to make a successful graft.

You may want to try this technique where I modified a bark graft
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=32191.msg353623#msg353623

With this technique, you leave the bark flap and re use it in order to close and fill in any gaps. This is extremely beneficial in cooler climates where Mangos donít grow as vigorously.

Simon

edzone9

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I just completed this type of Graft This morning I hope I did it correctly.
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sapote

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I just discovered this thread.  Been trying to graft my mango trees using both my own scions and a few purchased.
After trying this one, I find that I have difficulty determining how deep to make the cut.  Seems like everyone else figured it out, but not me apparently. 
I make the cuts, but the bark doesn't really "lift" off as suggested it should.  Seem to more like have to scrape it off or cut it off.  Perhaps I am not cutting deep enough - hard to know.
I am color blind (red/green) so may be a factor.
Been using parafilm tape and just obtained some Aglis buddy tape coming in tomorrow. 

So... with say, a 1/2 or 3/4  or even a 1 inch diameter limb, about how deep would one make the cut to get to the cambium layer.
I am trying to create a couple of "cocktail' tree using scions from my 6 trees.

Thanks much; and let me know if I should just create a new thread as suggested.

The OP might not need it now, but I hope others in the future can find this answer useful.
Digging the bark out of the rootstock is not a precise task. Just cut through the bark into the hardwood -- deeper is fine and won't hurt anything -- in a rectangular shape outline to house the scion, then pop the bark out with the knife blade any way you like. I like to sink the blade into the center line of the bark then tilt the blade to lift the bark halves off. You will know the cambium when and where the bark popped out clean. Depending on the grow season, most of the time the bark pops out clean in one piece, but other time it broken in multiple pieces. Cutting the scion is more critical.

sapote

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I grafted one tree using Sapoteís grave digger technique last year and the graft took but the bottom portion did not heal cleanly. I think it will be beneficial to leave a flap at the bottom to secure the scion and create additional surface area for the union on the upper cut end of the scion.








You can see in the picture I posted above that the bottom tip of the scion did not heal over properly but the Union was sufficient to make a successful graft.

You may want to try this technique where I modified a bark graft
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=32191.msg353623#msg353623

With this technique, you leave the bark flap and re use it in order to close and fill in any gaps. This is extremely beneficial in cooler climates where Mangos donít grow as vigorously.

Simon


Simon,

The bottom looks smaller than the top -- you placed the scion upside down?

Kidding. I don't have a single grave digger graft with the same as yours. Did you place the scion bottom touching against the rootstock bark? All my grafts have the bottom swelled up twice the scion dia, where the scion and rootstock joined with new grown cells. Maybe the scion had a bruised end, or the cambium not making contact at this end.

ammoun

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Sapote, this looks super interesting! You will probably have to modify the name at some point as coffin/grave aren't very indicative of a graft that will take  ;D

Help me understand the context please, I once saw in a nursery that they are cleft grafting and they seem to get decent results, is this only for top grafting when the scion is way thinner than rootstock?


sapote

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This method is for larger rootstock, while cleft grafting is for same size rootstock and scion.

sapote

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Simon,

Ref to the scion dried bottom, here are 4 different scions with Grave digger method that all ended with swollen bottom:

1. Alphonsol 7 months graft


2. Alampur Baneshan 10 month with one fruit (vertical graft and not the angled graft which is a 5 months alampur small scion)


3. Maha Chanok 10 month with fruits



4. Maha Chanok 10 months no fruit

« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 02:25:09 PM by sapote »

Oolie

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The swollen area should have more growth surrounding the healed portion. Swelling means a thicker connection and therefore a stronger connection and the ability to hold a crop sooner without breaking the graft.

simon_grow

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Thanks for the pictures Sapote. The scion did have contact at the bottom but there may have been an unseen injury on the scion or rootstock. The graft did take but it was my first time trying it and perhaps the next one will look cleaner.

Simon

Guanabanus

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Following.  Looks like another good technique to have among one's options.

I usually do clefts or modified-veneers on green branches, when top-work grafting trees. 
Har

skhan

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I used this method last year and it worked well.
Only did one though.

The ones I did this year I left half the flap on.
So it sort of a combination between grave and bark like what Simon described.

For my older trees, I prefer the hardwood methods since I can trim and graft the same day.
And if it fails I can just do green grafting after.
Had to buy some grafting wax though.
Khan's Edible Oasis
Yard as of Jan 2019

Rex Begonias

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Forgive me for any egregious errors- this is my first graft EVER.  Itís a Duncan on a Tommy Atkins.






Tips and pointers greatly appreciated, I tried based on this thread.

edzone9

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This is my attempt at this style of grafting .




Should I cover that bud? With a plastic bag ?

Ed
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simon_grow

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I cover my scions with buddy tape or Parafilm in order to avoid drying out.

Simon

Rex Begonias

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I cover my scions with buddy tape or Parafilm in order to avoid drying out.

Simon

I should probably cover the whole rest of the scion and remove that last leaf I left then, Iím assuming?

simon_grow

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Forgive me for any egregious errors- this is my first graft EVER.  Itís a Duncan on a Tommy Atkins.






Tips and pointers greatly appreciated, I tried based on this thread.

Hey Rex, I didnít see your post till now. You scion appears to have wrinkle lines indicating that it is drying up a bit.

I normally prep my scions by removing the leaves and waiting 1-3 weeks until I see buds forming and the petioles fall off readily. Your scion looks a bit immature. The color of the leaf appears very juvenile. You want to use scions that have fully hardened leaves. New growth will make horrible scions.

You also want to wrap your scions with Buddy tape or Parafilm before you graft. Alternatively, you can bag your scion to help retain moisture but you may need to spray the scion several times a day if there is a lot of air/gas exchange.

Honestly, your graft does not look too promising. The tip of your scion is droopy which indicates to me that it was too young and that it is already drying up.

Try spraying the scion with RO or rain water and then cover it with a bag and put the tree in mostly shade. You could get lucky but itís not looking too good so far.

Simon


Rex Begonias

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Forgive me for any egregious errors- this is my first graft EVER.  Itís a Duncan on a Tommy Atkins.






Tips and pointers greatly appreciated, I tried based on this thread.

Hey Rex, I didnít see your post till now. You scion appears to have wrinkle lines indicating that it is drying up a bit.

I normally prep my scions by removing the leaves and waiting 1-3 weeks until I see buds forming and the petioles fall off readily. Your scion looks a bit immature. The color of the leaf appears very juvenile. You want to use scions that have fully hardened leaves. New growth will make horrible scions.

You also want to wrap your scions with Buddy tape or Parafilm before you graft. Alternatively, you can bag your scion to help retain moisture but you may need to spray the scion several times a day if there is a lot of air/gas exchange.

Honestly, your graft does not look too promising. The tip of your scion is droopy which indicates to me that it was too young and that it is already drying up.

Try spraying the scion with RO or rain water and then cover it with a bag and put the tree in mostly shade. You could get lucky but itís not looking too good so far.

Simon

Hey Simon,
Thanks for help, I donít know what Iím doing, lol.  That was a fresh cut of new growth, so it should not have had much water loss as it was nearly direct from tree to that photo, but yes, probably way too young, did not know the opportune time to take the scion nor how to prepare it.  I will go cut the leaf and wrap the rest of it and pray I get lucky. 

Likely will just have to try again, I just went for it because I needed to remove that branch, lol.  My mangos are all really young, so havenít had much growth to work with.  Maybe Iíll sprout a bunch of seedlings just to play around with.

Rex Begonias

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Forgive me for any egregious errors- this is my first graft EVER.  Itís a Duncan on a Tommy Atkins.






Tips and pointers greatly appreciated, I tried based on this thread.

Hey Rex, I didnít see your post till now. You scion appears to have wrinkle lines indicating that it is drying up a bit.

I normally prep my scions by removing the leaves and waiting 1-3 weeks until I see buds forming and the petioles fall off readily. Your scion looks a bit immature. The color of the leaf appears very juvenile. You want to use scions that have fully hardened leaves. New growth will make horrible scions.

You also want to wrap your scions with Buddy tape or Parafilm before you graft. Alternatively, you can bag your scion to help retain moisture but you may need to spray the scion several times a day if there is a lot of air/gas exchange.

Honestly, your graft does not look too promising. The tip of your scion is droopy which indicates to me that it was too young and that it is already drying up.

Try spraying the scion with RO or rain water and then cover it with a bag and put the tree in mostly shade. You could get lucky but itís not looking too good so far.

Simon

Hey Simon,
Thanks for help, I donít know what Iím doing, lol.  That was a fresh cut of new growth, so it should not have had much water loss as it was nearly direct from tree to that photo, but yes, probably way too young, did not know the opportune time to take the scion nor how to prepare it.  I will go cut the leaf and wrap the rest of it and pray I get lucky. 

Likely will just have to try again, I just went for it because I needed to remove that branch, lol.  My mangos are all really young, so havenít had much growth to work with.  Maybe Iíll sprout a bunch of seedlings just to play around with.

I cut the leaf and wrapped the rest of it, will have to watch a few YouTubeís and read a bit more before my next, but had the tools and the opportunity, so I went for it, been procrastinating on taking a stab at a graft for a while.

Orkine

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There are many great videos on youtube about grafting mango.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp_QOOLRTcI
The one that started this thread.

A few other good ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIDc6Z5zH9Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ2Ja76EY38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx_rCjjjJBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEKNrnsuuW0

There are lots more but if you watch these, you will hear and see most of what you need to.  Good luck.
If you were closer, I would invite you to one of the grafting demos we have from time to time, and you would leave with a seedling with a decent variety.

By the way, most important tip, label your graft :)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 06:50:05 PM by Orkine »

simon_grow

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Congratulations on going out there and just doing it. Each time you graft, you will build upon your experience and be that much better.

Definitely select scions that are strong and with fully hardened leaf flushes. Remove all the leaves from the scion 1-2 weeks before you plan on harvesting it. You should see nice swollen buds on the scion before harvesting it.

You want to wrap the scion with buddy tape or Parafilm before you graft because wrapping afterwords can dislodge or shift the position of the scion.

Definitely plant out a bunch of mango seeds to use as rootstocks. You can get lots of practice on the cheap going this route.

Simon