Author Topic: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize  (Read 639 times)

tedburn

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tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« on: January 24, 2021, 04:10:54 AM »
I read a few articles about some advantages of tetraploid citrus, but I couldn' t find out yet, how I can recognize if a seedling or a plant has tetraploid genetic.
Are there citrus species which are as default tetraploid or are there exterial signs e.g. as leaveshape, smell or other exterial attributes ?
Very interested to learn more about ;).

Oolie

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2021, 12:04:46 PM »
There are some very good posts on this forum about this.

I would search for them.

Key things to take away, somewhat dwarfed habit (when viewed from a distance). Fewer and larger pores on the bottoms of leaves (microscope slides are manufactured using impression of bottom of leaf on clear nail polish).

Seems like you're looking to breed triploids, that may be a good search term to use.

tedburn

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2021, 02:25:18 PM »
Thank you Ooli for your informations. In the first look I didn' t find much in the forum, but so I will still have a more intensive look. For the first I' m still not trying breeding citrus, first I still have to gather more informations. But I think citrus breeding is a very very interesting topic, so I will see which flowering citrus I will get in spring/ summer and then looking if something is possible. But I think the practical doing also
needs some experience, so lets see.

hardyvermont

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2021, 02:59:28 PM »
I read a few articles about some advantages of tetraploid citrus, but I couldn' t find out yet, how I can recognize if a seedling or a plant has tetraploid genetic.
Are there citrus species which are as default tetraploid or are there exterial signs e.g. as leaveshape, smell or other exterial attributes ?
Very interested to learn more about ;).
Citrus seedlings are sometimes tetraploid.  The leaves are thicker and a darker green.  The leaf edges are more scalloped.  Besides colchicine, Surflan is a product that can induce higher ploidy. 

lebmung

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2021, 10:07:59 AM »

Citrus seedlings are sometimes tetraploid.  The leaves are thicker and a darker green.  The leaf edges are more scalloped.  Besides colchicine, Surflan is a product that can induce higher ploidy.
[/quote]

Both highly carcinogenic

Ilya11

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2021, 04:40:08 PM »
Colchicine is not known for its cancerogenicity, it is an authorized medicament to treat gout and several other diseases.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lebmung

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2021, 05:00:00 PM »
Colchicine is not known for its cancerogenicity, it is an authorized medicament to treat gout and several other diseases.

Correct it is used at very low concentration as a medication. 1 milligram per pill.
To induce tetraploid one needs to use it a a higher concentrations around 0.1-0.2%
To make that solution you need higher grade concentration, handlining that outside lab with proper equipment is pure madness.
Vapor or skin contact is very dangerous.

Quote
Colchicine is a highly toxic plant hormone that is used medically in the treatment of gout and in scientific research. Colchicine stops the process of cell division (it is an antimitotic agent). Exposure to colchicine can be fatal in very small doses (e.g., 7 to 65 mg).
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750016.html

Sure it's very easy to make and obtain it, but I won't go into details because this is an extreme hazard.
This is a mutagen so it makes mutations in your body.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 05:06:33 PM by lebmung »

Ilya11

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2021, 05:14:50 PM »
So, take 5 pills (5 mg), that is what is being used for two and a half  days as a medication, dissolve them in 1 ml of water to have 0.5% of final solution.
 
"Colchicine, in the form of the autumn crocus (Colchicum autumnale), has been used as early as 1500 BC to treat joint swelling.[8] It was approved for medical use in the United States in 1961.[9] It is available as a generic medication in the United Kingdom.[6] In 2017, it was the 201st-most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than two million prescriptions.[10][11"
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 05:19:49 PM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

tedburn

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2021, 02:46:54 AM »
Thanks all for your informations. Read just about Colchicine and as you wrote it can do good and bad depending on dosage, time and usecase.
But when is it used to cause Tetraploidie ? Giving it to plants while building fruits, that then the seeds build tetraploid chromosomes ?
Best regards Frank

lebmung

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 03:11:10 PM »
So, take 5 pills (5 mg), that is what is being used for two and a half  days as a medication, dissolve them in 1 ml of water to have 0.5% of final solution.
 
"Colchicine, in the form of the autumn crocus (Colchicum autumnale), has been used as early as 1500 BC to treat joint swelling.[8] It was approved for medical use in the United States in 1961.[9] It is available as a generic medication in the United Kingdom.[6] In 2017, it was the 201st-most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than two million prescriptions.[10][11"

one pill has 97-98mg lactose and 1 mg colchicine
five pills 500mg into 1 ml I think that would turn into a paste, and I'm not sure if it will get into the seed.
Solubility in water: 195 g/L for lactose

By the way one can induce 4x from a bud not only from seeds. Fruits from treated buds could turn 4x so using them crosspollinated with a 2x might result in a 3x

Ilya11

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 05:44:48 PM »
First of all we were dealing with poisonous effects of colchicine, that are certainly negligible at the concentrations used for the induction of polyploidy. Also, high osmotic conditions due to the presence of lactose excipient will probably enhance penetration of colchicine into cells
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lebmung

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Re: tetraploid seedlings or plants - how to recognize
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2021, 07:26:31 PM »
First of all we were dealing with poisonous effects of colchicine, that are certainly negligible at the concentrations used for the induction of polyploidy. Also, high osmotic conditions due to the presence of lactose excipient will probably enhance penetration of colchicine into cells

Most of poisonings occur when handling pure white powder colchicine to make a stock solution without safety. One can order that from lab supplies. Playing with few pills is not an issue.