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Messages - SoCal2warm

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The most hardy non trifolate citrus tree
« on: September 28, 2022, 02:46:46 AM »
I have been experimenting with pretty much all of the rare non-trifoliate hardy citrus trees.

My results so far seem to show that Changsha is the hardiest of them. Yuzu is a close second, but does not seem to be as hardy as Changsha. But I cannot be absolutely sure about this.   

All of the research from things I have read have informed me that Ichang papeda should be the hardiest non-trifoliate citrus, but that is not what my experimental observations have shown. I had obtained Ichang papeda from two different sources in the Portland, Oregon area but it is possible they might have originated from the same source and could have perhaps been grown from some specific seedling that had less hardiness than its parent, though I think this is not so likely.

Plants were grown in the Pacific Northwest, climate zone 8a, and last winter had a low that may have gone down to as low as 9 degrees F one night, though other than that it was not a very cold winter. It killed some of the Yuzu plants, even one that had been surviving for several years through cold winters before that, but a Changsha that was planted in a very protected spot and sheltered by a large bush growing around it (although it was not covered) survived and even kept all its leaves.

To be fair, I have not grown Prague Citsuma, but another member of this forum is growing one in a protected spot and in the middle of a suburban neighborhood across the bridge from Portland (also zone 8a). Its leaves did not seem to look as good as the Changsha he was growing, which one might perhaps take as an indicator of cold tolerance. I got to taste the inside of the fruit. It was very much like Satsuma mandarin but the fruits were smaller, more sour, and perhaps just a little bit less ripe tasting, but not bad at all.

2
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« on: September 06, 2022, 04:18:31 PM »
I think Citrangeremos are hybrids between Eremocitrus x Citrange.

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: August 22, 2022, 02:42:49 AM »
Changsha certainly looks like it might be a worthy contributor to a cold hardy breeding plan.
It's important to point out that your profile says you are in zone 6b. (Changsha has a limit of 8a, maybe the border of 8a and 7b but it might struggle)

For you in particular it may be more practical to just stick to US-835 (Changha x poncirus hybrid).

4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« on: August 22, 2022, 01:27:17 AM »
Let me first say I am not expert in this specific area, but from what information I have found, I believe that Citrus glauca is only about equal in cold tolerance to Satsuma mandarin. (Even though Satsuma mandarin can be rather cold tolerant in some situations)
This makes me skeptical that Eremo- hybrids with ordinary citrus fruit species could be as cold tolerant as claimed.

I do know that Citrus glauca is very drought tolerant, so that might potentially resist desiccating cold winter winds, and perhaps it enables the root systems to sprout back.

Of course, the person who made the opening post lives in climate zone 8b, so I am sure all sorts of only marginal hardy citrus varieties could survive there. Even a Satsuma mandarin might perhaps survive for him if planted in a protected spot. If he lived in 8a, it would be very much more difficult, and zone 7 nearly impossible.

It should also be noted that there is a big difference between zone 8 in the US South versus zone 8 in Europe. (Given the same climate zone number, I think the South is easier to grow in most years, due to the longer growing season and greater warmth)

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: new thoughts on breeding hardier citrus
« on: August 18, 2022, 01:40:07 AM »
My thoughts on breeding hardy citrus is it might make sense to try to cross Changsha mandarin with Dunstan citrumelo.
I'm in the PNW, climate zone 8a, and these two varieties have been the ones that have seemed to survive the best in this climate. The others got almost completely wiped out after temperatures went down a little colder than usual. I have trialed a lot of different hardy varieties.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Shortest Growing Season Citrus
« on: July 20, 2022, 10:26:50 PM »
I thought that sudachi is significantly less cold hardy than yuzu? Still better than most citrus, but closer to the level of a satsuma?
From my testing 2 hours north of jim VH, it seems like Sudachi has close to the same level of absolute cold tolerance. But Yuzu is a more vigorous grower and can more easily recover from damage. The Sudachi and most of the Yuzu plants finally died after being exposed to a brief temperature drop to 9 F, even though the rest of the winter wasn't that cold. They had previously survived a quick drop down to between 12 and 14 a previous winter, with only slight to moderate damage.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Rooting Prague chimera cuttings
« on: July 19, 2022, 01:54:19 AM »
plant seeds  much better test.
Probably not a good idea. We've had this discussion before. Since this cultivar is a rare chimera, any seeds planted from the fruits are likely to turn out to be plain Satsuma mandarin seeds. Although no one has actually tested that hypothesis, as far as I know.

8
Two small updates

One of the Yuzu bushes that I thought was killed seems to be sprouting a few tiny leaflets from its base, right above the graft line.

A seedling that I grew from US-852 citrandarin (poncirus x Changsha) seems to be sprouting up from the ground. I had presumed it was killed back to the ground by the winter, but it is possible my gardener carelessly wacked it down. It is planted in a shady colder part of the yard where hardy citrus has not seemed to do well.

It does appear that I see some green at the very base of one of the Ichang papeda plants, close to the ground. I don't know if it will be able to grow out.

9
Kishu will have some seeds in it, if it is pollinated by a different citrus variety. Maybe out of three fruits, one of them might have one or two seeds in it.

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nippon Orangequat
« on: July 06, 2022, 11:53:30 PM »
If it's that tall, it should be producing blooms by now. My guess is it's a combination of both being a seedling tree (by that I mean growing on its own roots, no dwarfing effect from being on grafted rootstock) and the climate (recovering after the winter making it more reluctant to bloom).

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ten Degree Tangerine - Clemyuz 2-2
« on: July 06, 2022, 11:19:29 PM »
So might not be so much more cold hardy than a good satsuma variety, keraji or changsha, ...
I believe it's probably a little more hardy than Satsuma, but less hardy than Changsha.
I can't really judge how it compares with Keraji, but from the plants I grew in separate years, it would seem to me Keraji might be a little bit more hardy.

Though I have never tasted it, supposedly the fruit quality is what you would expect from a cross between the two, with about equal traits from both. Actually fresh grown Yuzu off your own tree is not bad, I can even enjoy eating it, although it is a little insipid, not a huge amount of flavor in the inner flesh (most of the flavor is in the peel), it's a little dry, not much juice, and the amount of flesh is limited due to the inside being filled with numerous large sized seeds. (Some people don't see any edible value in Yuzu whatsoever, however)

I have tasted Changsha and would imagine that the fruit quality of Clem-Yuz is slightly better, from pictures of the inside of the fruit I've seen.

In my opinion, probably Clem-Yuz needs to be back-crossed with something else before it's really useful as a hardy hybrid. Otherwise, it's just an interesting curiosity that is only borderline a little more cold tolerant than normal citrus. Like if you live just on the edge of citrus growing territory where Satsuma can barely grow but doesn't do too well.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ten Degree Tangerine - Clemyuz 2-2
« on: July 06, 2022, 09:22:48 PM »
It did not do well for me in the US Pacific Northwest, zone 8a. It was obviously less cold tolerant than Yuzu. It was almost completely killed, but managed to hang on to life for three years, slowly declining until it finally died. After the first winter it lost all its leaves, and I could later see the next two Spring seasons that the plant was trying to bud out leaf growth in two areas, but the plant was just not successful, and so the plant began declining since it was not able to grow out any leaves.

I would guess this might be a variety fit for a protected spot in zone 8b, or might be useful for further breeding purposes.

It might be able to survive in a protected spot in zone 8a in the US South. I don't know.

13
Everything I had outside was killed, with only three exceptions. The Yuzu bushes all died. Except for a tiny own-root Yuzu seedling that was very close to the ground, which doesn't even have any leaves but is trying to bud out some growth.
The Changsha mandarin survived and kept all its leaves, but it was planted in a more protected spot surrounded by bush growth from another plant (escallonia).
The Dunstan citrumelo survived and looks good now, though it lost nearly all of its leaves except for the branches very near to the ground. Even it experienced some die-back if a few smaller branches.
The last was a surprise, the Ichang lemon managed to recover and is sending out some good growth now, even though it was growing in a container. It suffered heavy damage. This Ichang lemon plant has not seemed to be very cold tolerant in previous years. Maybe it is inexplicable luck. The container was not too far away from the house. It survived while a Bloomsweet right next it died.

The other Yuzu plant which is located in the downtown area survived but lost all its leaves. The branches look a healthy green, with only a few grey damage areas on the branch farthest away from the trunk. It is now sending out leaf growth.

Both Ichang papeda plants appear to be dead.

July 1, 2022

14
Why would my 5 ft tall Seville sour orange tree have fruit that wont ripen after a year and a half?
This is not unusual if the tree is still small, and especially if it is in a Northern climate with a shorter growing season.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Siting Yuzu and Bloomsweet
« on: May 20, 2022, 09:59:29 PM »
I am thinking any plant planted in the hot desert will prefer being planted in an area that is just a little bit shady, especially an area that gets a little bit of shade during the hottest part of the day, 12:00 to 3:00 pm.

Yuzu and Bloomsweet should do just fine in zone 9. I think the heat might be what you have to worry about more than the cold, in this case.

In zone 8, it is a completely different matter.

16
I can provide an update. Not good news. Almost none of the hardy citrus seemed to do well this winter. The temperature dipped down to 9 degrees F on New Years Eve, despite the temperature not dropping too low for the rest of the winter. (Although it did dip down to between 16 to 18 in the early morning of February 23 and 25)

The only one that was completely undamaged and looks great was the Changsha mandarin, but that was planted in a more protected location and surrounded by a big bush that probably helped insulate it.

Keraji, with a gallon container of water right next to it and covered with a paper bag, died down to the rootstock.
Why did it survive fine through last winter but was killed this winter? I do not know. Maybe it ran out of energy?

Bloomsweet, which also had a water container next to it and was haphazardly covered with a plastic bag through the worst part of the winter, suffered severe die back. One two little branches down towards the bottom are still alive and green. I am not sure if it will be able to recover.

The Dunstan citrumelo lost nearly all of its leaves, except some towards the very bottom near a branch that was weighed down against the ground by the weight of snow. Those leaves will survive. Most of the branches look green and fine, but there were just a few segments of branches that have turned grey and look like they were very damaged. Fortunately it is a vigorous grower and I am sure it will recover and survive.

Sudachi survived, but only because almost the entire little plant was bent down against the ground and so was burried under the snow and insulated under the winds. It does not look great and looks somewhat tattered but the leaves are still alive.

The two Ichang papeda plants seem to have been very much killed back. Only the base branch very close to the ground is still alive.

Three Yuzu plants, all on grafted rootstock, appear to have finally died. They survived through several winters before, so maybe they gradually ran out of energy and then were not able to recover? It is interesting.

One tiny little Yuzu seedling in the yard close against the ground survived, though it has no leaves.

Another Yuzu seedling, 3 feet tall, that is in another location that is in more of a developed area near the downtown has survived. It lost all its leaves but the branches are still all green and it looks like it will recover just fine. It is growing on its own roots.

The Ichangquat seedling (the one that I thought might be a complex hybrid and be more hardy) was killed down to 3 inches above the ground. The other Ichangquat seedling only has one narrow little branch that is surviving, seems like the other two were killed back, and even that one surviving branch was killed back to only less than 2 inches above the ground, no surviving leaves. I do not know if it will be able to recover.

That tiny little keraji seedling is still alive and has a tiny healthy colored green leaf, but it was completely buried under a layer of mulch and was very close to the ground.

17
I recently ordered one from Woodlanders, it arrived yesterday, and I've found myself a bit skeptical.
In my opinion those leaves are symmetrical enough that it could be Ichang papeda.
I think on some of the smaller sized plants, the leaves might not be quite as symmetrically sized as on more mature trees.

You will notice that a few of the leaves in those pictures do seem to have more of the fuller symmetry of stereotypical Ichang papeda.

It does not appear to be Ichang lemon from the leaves, much more like Ichang papeda.

18
I would recommend saving your time and grow something else. I have gotten them to fruit but they get to the size of a golf ball then dry up.  Fungal issues prevent full maturation.
What if you just put a frame over the tree with a transparent plastic cover during the warmer half of the year? That might prevent rain from falling on the fruit.

I know this is what they do for harvesting cherries in Japan and tomatoes in Korea.

19
I am unsure of why pomegranates would not do well in Florida.

As far as I know, there are two main things. The wet rainy summer days can cause the fruit to crack, and pomegranates do not like the alkaline soil in Florida. I think both of these things might not be too difficult to solve.

There might also be disease and pest issues with the heat and humidity on the leaves but I do not know specifically about this.

Chill hours are not much of a problem with pomegranates in zone 10 Southern California, so why do you think it would be a problem in Florida? I know winters in Florida can be shorter though and have bursts of warmth throughout the winter which may not be good for plant chill accumulation.

Wonderful, Angel Red, and Austin all produce fruit in zone 10 California.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2022, 09:29:49 PM »
Interesting, I wonder if like kabosu its only sour before ripening?
I have had one picked from the tree that was fully ripe (but grown in a cool short season climate).
They are about as sour as a Meyer lemon, but just a little bit watery, bland, and insipid inside. They might be a little less acidic than a Meyer lemon due to being watery. This was when it had reached a full yellowish-orange color.
You want to pick them when they are still mostly green.

The peel makes a good marmalade at this stage though, when they are orange.

I will say that the inside quality of Kabosu, fully ripe, is definitely better than Yuzu, if you are only focusing on eating the inside. It is a little like Yuzu, but also like a Meyer lemon and even maybe just a little bit like an orange. Not great flavor, but definitely edible inside. Though this is still not something you would buy from the store if you were only wanting it to eat the inside.

Lastly, I will say that the leaves on my Sudachi survived through a zone 8a Pacific Northwest winter, but I think that was only because the trunk was bent down by the weight of the snow causing the entire plant to be buried under the snow. If it had been exposed to the above air, the leaves would have been completely fried and there would have been severe stem damage and branch death.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2022, 09:12:27 PM »
For my 2 cents worth.  My opinion is, all of the various Yuzu strains and yuzu hybrids are simply not worth investing ones time and money in growing them, and most especially if your  intent is to eat any of them.
I have a different opinion from you. I can understand why some people would say that. Yuzu is not really a "high quality" fruit, compared to any normal lemon. But it has no bad off flavors, is definitely possible to eat, and is pretty hardy and cold tolerant for a lemon. That combination of hardiness with edibility could be a good starting point, in my opinion. It may not be an excellent fruit, and it does not have the level of cold tolerance of poncirus hybrids, but can you find any other citrus that is as cold tolerant as Yuzu which tastes as good, or is as edible as Yuzu but is more cold tolerant? I don't think you will.
Yuzu is great to add flavor to other things, and especially the peel is tender, not too bitter, and has lots of flavor. Something else to keep in mind is that harvest time does matter.

Those who say Yuzu is terrible, I have to imagine that those people live in a zone 9 or 10 climate where they can grow better tasting citrus varieties. Once you get into zone 8, your options become more limited, and then Yuzu might be something you might want to consider, if you want to be able to grow anything outside.

Unless you value Yuzu for the peel and understand how the peel can be used, I can see how some people might not understand how Yuzu is worthwhile to grow. But the inside is edible. Although it can be a little watery and bland, the inside flesh is a bit dry, does not have much juice, and of course the inside is packed full of a large number of large-sized seeds that take up a large volume of space. I get a lemon, sour orange, mandarin orange, and a little bit of almost grapefruit flavor from the inside segments.

When I say the inside is edible, perhaps I mean something that a child would snack on and forage for in the wild, or that you could eat in a survival situation.

Yuzu has a very fragrant and unique smell, that to some people compensates for its low quality fruit. The important thing is that the fruits do not have bitterness, like some other fragrant orange citrus fruits.

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 04, 2022, 07:03:09 AM »
I do have a small Yuzu tree growing in the same yard space as a large Eureka lemon in climate zone 10. I suppose I could try to do a cross pollination and share some seeds. I highly doubt the offspring could grow in zone 8 though.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 02, 2022, 06:44:38 AM »
it is true that a simple cross between poncirus and citrus will not produce a predictable result, no matter how much you think about it beforehand, it always depends on the number of seedlings, the greater the number of seedlings the greater the probability of finding the desired gene combination, it is much more about probabilities and not only about recessive and dominant.
I just do not think the desired gene combination is going to be able to be achieved in one hybridization. It will take two.

Several seedlings will have to be grown, and then subsequently numerous seeds from each of those seedlings will have to be grown.

Many of the seeds may turn out to be nucellar (genetic clones of the fruit parent they came from) so that will turn out to be a waste.

If it were so easy as just make one hybridization and growing many seeds, I am sure more progress would have been made by now.


The first thing is you have to breed out the bad qualities, while retaining some of the genes for the good qualities, and then you have to breed back to try to more fully get the genes for the good qualities.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 02, 2022, 04:45:36 AM »
I like swingle citrumelo as a lemon substitute too.
Many people say Dunstan citrumelo is not too far from the feel of a lemon, and at its best is almost edible without too much trifoliate taste.
Well, more like a sour grapefruit of course, but it might make a good starting point. Maybe cross it with a normal lemon. I doubt that resulting hybrid would have cold tolerance, so you'd probably have to take a large number of seeds from the resulting fruit of that new hybrid, and see if any of the subsequent offspring have cold tolerance. It would probably take one more generation to bring out all those recessive genes.

I think that may be why developing hardy citrus has not been so easy and many have not succeeded.
If you just take trifoliate and cross it with another normal citrus, and then take that and cross it once more with another normal citrus that has no cold tolerance, very little of the original trifoliate cold tolerance is going to manifest, even under the best chances. I think you would have to do one more additional self-cross after that, to have any chance of strengthening back the cold tolerance genes.

It's clearly obvious that most of the genes for cold tolerance do not appear to be dominant genes.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 01, 2022, 05:48:06 PM »
What Im wondering is how adversely would pure citron affect hardiness in comparison to lemons?  How do citrons and lemons generally compare to each other in hardiness? Im not even sure which citron would be a good start as I know less about that species.
This is the way I would think of it. Lemons are only more hardy because sour orange has been introduced into the citron ancestry. Sour orange is moderately hardy, mainly I think because it is so vigorous growing and can easily recover so fast. Chinotto sour orange is known to be able to survive down to 18 F (although I have tasted them and they are rather bitter, not ideal for any culinary use, although it is not completely impossible to be able to "snack" on one small fruit. other sour oranges are better in quality, such as the traditional marmalade orange).

So do we really want sour orange introduced into our lemon line to add more hardiness. I personally do not think that is ideal. The trade-off for increase in hardiness (which is not great) might not be worth the more orange flavor. The only difference is that citron can only grow in climate zone 10, does not always do well in 10a, whereas a normal lemon can easily grow in 10a and often can be grown in 9b. It might only very much struggle in 9a. (I am sure many more expert citrus growers might disagree with me)
Of course you could easily begin with a regular lemon (such as Lisbon) if that is easier for you. I was just suggesting that theoretically, a citron might be more optimal to begin with. Lisbon still has great flavor and no one will argue it is not "lemon" enough in flavor.

Meyer lemon is believed to have resulted from a more direct cross between citron and mandarin, and is more like equal parts of both, so it is less lemon-like in flavor. A cross already exists between Meyer lemon and trifoliate. It is called citremon.

I thought of this but didn't mention it earlier but I wonder about rough lemons (Jambiri Citrus) as breedstock. Theyre a mix of citrons and mandarins.
I have tasted fruit from a big tree that I believe was a rough lemon rootstock, and unfortunately, while they are pleasantly fragrant, they are very bitter and completely inedible, not to mention being rather dry on the inside.
I actually tested seedlings grown from seeds of this fruit, and it was not able to survive a winter in the PNW climate zone 8, whereas Yuzu seedlings did survive.

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