I'm gonna to move a semi discussion from elsewhere to start.
A friend said that this sorta talk might be well more received here.
I've been considering growing some stuff.
I live in Zone 8b now.
Asimina is a very interesting genus.
And living in Zone 8B opens up breeding options.
Asimina triloba is probably the most well known Pawpaw species.
There are also Pawpaws endemic to small areas in Florida.
There's also other Pawpaws, sure.
Now, why would I want to breed with small fruited species?
Well, some species have large flowers for one.
Another thing? I'm living in Zone 8B. Warmer areas, aren't as suitable for Pawpaws due to chill requirements. I'm probably pushing it on the chill hours here.
But then there's the Florida species, that are seen as growable only in zones 8 or higher.
And, many of these species are pollinated by wasps and butterflies. Asimina triloba is more or less only pollinated by beetles, if I remember correctly. And they don't smell too lovely.
Some species grow in partial shade or full sun.
Some are small shrubs.
Some handle drought pretty well, and grow on rocky soil.
Not all plant breeders focus on things other than disease resistances or flavor.
I happen to know that a lot of people may be more open to growing Pawpaws with flowers that smell nicer, and feed butterflies.
I for one think that having beetles to pollinate flowers is beneficial, as some years may have lower bee populations or other issues.
Plus I have a plan to grow Ficus species that are pollinated by beetles, next to Asimina triloba - not all figs are hardy where Pawpaws are usually grown.
Beetles would more than likely learn that there's even more food next to their other food - these would also have rotting scents / odors to them.
Anyways, bit off topic but I will say that there's reasonings as to why I wouldn't wanna change up the flowering stuff too much.
Triloba flowers remind me of some Asarum species to an extent, dunno if there's a special formula there for attracting some insects.
With Asarum caudatum and canadense, the flowers are the same reddish / burgundy as Asimina triloba, and they give off a rotting sort of odor. The flowers supposedly resemble the color of rotting flesh.
So. There's that. I'd probably grow some Asarum plants next to the base of Pawpaws, as a fun experiment or test.
But wait, there's more!
I'm in Zone 8B. This means I can technically grow Cherimoya - Annona cherimola.
A lot of places say it'll only grow in Zone 10 - 11, but may not have proper chill periods in Zone 11.
It'll actually grow in Zone 8, but substain frost damage sometimes.
It's well suited for Zone 9 - 10.
Annona species don't seem to all have chill periods. Cherimoya does, and there's hybrids out there with other species. They seem to readily hybridize with other species.
Now, there's an issue in California with growing Cherimoya.
It's more than likely pollinated by a small beetle, not found in California.
If only there happened to be a native species in the Annonaceae, native to North America that happened to be pollinated by small beetles and could be baited into pollinating nearby Cherimoya trees for one or two years, just long enough for the beetles to realize they can visit those top.
Oh, wait! Yeah.
I know of people in California who grow Pawpaws - not a ton of people do so. It actually does well in some areas.
I also know people in California who grow Cherimoya.
I don't know many people who grow Cherimoya and Pawpaws, side by side. The usual reasoning seems to be that one fruit takes longer to spoil, and doesn't thrive - plus the taste varies too much, even in varieties. The other has larger fruits and can be sold in markets.
Fair enough.
Cherimoya and Asimina crosses have been attempted.
They tend to fail. These are usually people shipping pollen back and forth, or from a greenhouse to outdoors.
Annona hybrids and Asimina hybrids, may be more compatible.
I'm quite interested in another genus since a researcher friend somewhere, told me something about funding (friends sometimes ask me for ideas or opinions on things, so I have a weird circle of friends who like weird plants).
Duguetia.
In the Annonaceae. My friend told me that Duguetia was very compatible with Asimina and Annona species.
I didn't get much information in terms of in what direction. The friend pretty much said they were approved for talking about this, as it didn't go anywhere.
But, it was simple donations of pollen.
They lost approval from funders of their research and moved onto different things, because they told people how long it would take to commercialize and breed things.
Appears they didn't like the answer.
I didn't get any Duguetia names for the exact species, I was told that it didn't seem to matter.
Meiogyne cylindrocarpa and Uvaria littoralis also exist. I was told "dunno" when I asked about these. Which I guess he did pretty much say they only worked with some Genera.
But, if I'm growing some Duguetia in pots for fruits and flowers. Yes, I'm going to grow other species in the Annonaceae.
Unfortunately, finding any public information on this isn't doable.
Unless you paid for access or know someone who's 100% allowed to say whatever.
Duguetia was seen as a possible bridge species in these cases as well - that's my main point here.
They brought up how there could be incompatibilities if they try first generation crosses crossed into another species - maybe the same barriers that the parents had. Or they said that Duguetia has some unpleasant traits, and that breeding F1s together would mean that they'd probably end up with something very similar to a Duguetia.
It also probably wouldn't be frost hardy.
Their goal would've been a frost hardy Annona.
Breeding takes time. Their bosses and whoever knew that. But, their assumed or projected periods for when they'd have something marketable. It wasn't something that people liked to see or hear.
They'd need trials in different areas that get frost.
It's likely that a lot of people wouldn't buy the fruits.
They'd be pricey due to the years of work that went into them.
People may try saving seeds for them.
The fruit would need to last long and taste good.
People would probably look at the fruit as a genetic monster in a lot of places.
People wouldn't be familiar with it in colder regions and just never touch it.
I'm 23.
I can get some breeding done. But I'd have to make 100% sure that it actually works in crosses with anything mentioned since it's hard to physically verify.
I'm also trying to think of why I wouldn't have heard of Duguetia x Annona crosses, they should overlap sometimes or be grown near each other.
One issue could be that species that overlap, may have different pollinators.
Or, people don't save seeds too often / get rid of off type / weird stuff.
Or, Duguetia has to be the mother, and crosses are rare and intermix into other Duguetia.
Honestly, I think it's worth a shot to grow these and figure out if it actually works.
If it does, I could try and see if mixing an Asimina x Duguetia and Annona x Duguetia would even give me fertile plants.
My friend said they never got that far, and used their plots for other stuff. I think it was eggplants?
If I wanted to do this properly, I'd need to cross Duguetia more than once into some of these - plus cross things back to other parents.
Maybe?
Asimina x Duguetia mixed into Annona x Duguetia, may not even work further down the line.
I doubt there's barriers. If the crosses take, I think they'd be fine and be able to produce flowers.
That was another reason that the project was scrapped earlier on.
When I start this project myself, I won't have any results for awhile.
My current research and things, seems to indicate that Pawpaw seedlings being shipped in from wherever, tend to just die.
They're usually from nurseries in the North, and too many reports mention that they die off in the South.
Other reports say that growing them from seed, and leaving the plants where they will be planted is the best way to start them further down south.
Southern cultivars or specimens also seem to work.
Those are also, harder to obtain.
It's also entirely possible that I need specific Asimina accessions or that I need Self compatible plants.
I don't think I do. But, if I'm going based on word of mouth from a friend, it's probably best to grow multiple accessions of Asimina species.
The other large trouble, was that there aren't many places you can even grow Duguetia in the United States (yeah, not the best place for Duguetia hybrid experiments). And the places that you can, they didn't have fields or anything. They could buy land.
But, their bosses would need to approve some stuff. It would need to be in a place that is large enough and suitable for Duguetia / Annona species grown outdoors, because they wanted to grow multiple species and things just to make sure future fertility in lines was assured.
And, they said that Pawpaws are grown outdoors, and that they couldn't have everything grown in greenhouses constantly.
Wouldn't do well for tests, and could complicate things.
I was told that pollen was being shipped some distances in chilled containers or something.
But yeah. I'm in a "Well, if that's even possible I'd like to try that out a bit."
Zone 8b, isn't a bad place to try that sorta stuff out.
If I managed to get F1 seed in both Asimina and Annona, that's all I'd need.
If it doesn't work, I would still be able to cross Asimina species, which I'd do anyways.
I'm unsure if this interests anyone. But, it seems like fun. By fun, I mean mostly a hobby at first.
I'm going to be growing some other trees. These poor little Pawpaws will have their shade and partial shade.
Some researcher friends said they tell me about stuff and whatnot, because I tend to have good ideas and think outside the box.
Asarum species of some types came to mind when talking about Asimina triloba and its flowers and scent.
There's convergent evolution between these groups, in my opinion.
Small reddish / burgundy flowers which smell of flesh and attract small flies or beetles, very similarly sized flowers and shape.
Plus the thing with Annona cherimola and some figs.
Either grow Asimina triloba and Annona cherimola in a way that they'll self graft, or graft them another way.
Or try the rotting meat trick on both species and see if anything happens.
Or try dying some Annona cherimola flowers red.
Some friends saw my post somewhere, and asked me to elaborate more.
I'd ideally make a dye with Asimina triloba flowers and then freeze them or refrigerate them.
Hopefully, it's lovely smelling flowers would stay intact with their chemical compounds.
Then I'd ideally paint or somehow soak Annona cherimola flowers in the dye.
My reasoning, was that my neighbors wouldn't appreciate me hanging dead carrion like others have tried before, to attract pollinators.
Plus, if I can attract Pawpaw pollinators to Annona cherimola, for even a year or two - flies and beetles should learn that these flowers exist, and flock to them.
I'd plant Asarum species as groundcovers around the Pawpaws, they also seem fine in the shade.
Asarum species also have some pollination issues at times.
Having both Asarum and Asimina triloba growing together, would probably give me even more pollinators.
It's probably possible to breed a non toxic Asarum that's usable as a completely non toxic ginger substitute.
This is also apart of why I would say that perhaps a large burgundy flowered, nice smelling Asimina triloba hybrid, may not be ideal. Or a large not so good smelling specimen may not be ideal.
Annona cherimola flowers, are frankly possibly not seen as flowers or as a food source for beetles that go to Asimina triloba flowers. They look pretty different.
Now, onto the fun stuff.
I've purchased some pre / semi stratified Tammy Pawpaw seeds. These are supposedly from a tree that could possibly be self pollinating / self fertile to some degree, much like Sunflower.
Asimina parviflora - over 5 seeds, rather pricey.
Asimina obovata - 50 seeds.
Annona senegalensis / African custard-apple - I bought some fresh seeds since its supposedly native to Africa. Hybrids of another Annona from elsewhere, would be fun to try out.
Annona sylvatica - From Brazil.
Duguetia lanceolata / Pindaiba.
Duguetia peruviana.
Cananga odorata - Ylang Ylang.
Meiogyne cylindrocarpa - Fingersop.
I should be getting Cherimoya seeds too.
But yeah. Someone said that this stuff would be better appreciated here.