Land purchasing and search discussion

[driftwood]

Good evening everybody.

Normally I am intrigued on topics pretty much only on plants, trees, and seeds but tonight I have something else on my mind. This is mainly questions for anyone who grows fruit professionally. (No shade on balcony and backyard growers, feel free to chime in as well)

I am a young man from the US and love growing my seeds in containers and eating fresh fruit from the market and learning about botany in general. But I deeply desire to grow my own orchard.

I know the hard work it can take as I have rented a 15 acre farm in New Mexico in the past and have lived in San Diego County and Puerto Rico and been a caretaker for various properties. By trade I am a graphic designer, landscaper, and carpenter. However it seems like land ownership is constantly out of reach for me and I no longer have a desire in renting someone's land and improving it for their benefit.

It seems like good agricultural land is going up drastically in price. Not to mention areas that are subtropical and tropical like SD and Homestead. Even the gulf coast of florida is going up. I am not very interested in becoming a zone pusher and try greenhouses in places like arizona or texas, I would rather work in a place where I am able to grow the plants I would like to grow.

I do know that we are about to experience a pretty large land shift over the next decade, due to large land owners aging. I am willing to be patient for the right time and the right piece of land and the right price. I am building up my knowledge and skills, asking questions, and meeting people. But I want to know, how many people grow fruit as their sole income? Or do people mainly have a different profession? and move to growing fruit as they acquire land? Or was the land already in your family?

I am putting out the call to the universe for a teacher. I am looking for experienced fruit growers or nursery owners who have some advice for a young guy starting out or maybe want an apprentice in the future. Do you think there are any older farm owners who would be interested in a sort of "passing on"/rent to own kind of deal as you teach the ins and outs? I am also open to doing a longer intensive study through several seasons with somebody here in the US or even another country. The 12 tribes in Bokeelia tried to recruit me to their mango farm, but I didn't feel like joining a cult this year. Not interested in wwoofing and giving away free labor either. I have been down that road already

I will probably be going back to work at a plant nursery soon that mainly deals with landscaping plants. Part of me wants to move back to Puerto Rico as land is the cheapest there for me. But if my savings run out, I am not sure what I would supplement with while trees get established and I am running the farm.

What would you tell your younger self if you were in my position? How did you get to be where you are today? How hard is it to get a job maintaining an orchard or nursery operation? Also, if you werent were you are now and could purchase anywhere, where would it be?

resources, good advice, bad advice, is all welcome. Thanks for reading. Be well everyone

[Finca La Isla]

It’s a good topic and I know something about this.
In the 80’s I moved to Costa Rica to start a fruit and spice farm.  I moved to a depressed area that had great tourism potential, bought land cheap, and started planting.  I started a nursery that is still operating and I planted lots of fruit trees.  Fortunately, it all came together after about 8 years when I was able to stop working on the side and live off of farm production and consultations mostly. We also have a farm tour. 
What made this work so well was a combination of luck and timing as well as vision and hard work.  To find good farmland cheap you might look at Puerto Rico as a place with potential.  There needs to be an economy where locals can buy your products.  You have to have a judicial system that protects your investment.  This rules out a lot of places. Panama might be a possibility but I feel it doesn’t have the fresh fruit consumers that CR has. 
My model is to sell locally at the farmers market, fruit stand, farm sales.  This works well in Costa Rica but it’s hard to find land inexpensive here now.  A reference price for farmland in our area would be about $4000 an acre.  There’s cheaper land around but farther from areas with services and economic activity.  Actually, people are pouring in from the US and buying up places all over CR these months.
Peter

[driftwood]

It’s a good topic and I know something about this.
In the 80’s I moved to Costa Rica to start a fruit and spice farm.  I moved to a depressed area that had great tourism potential, bought land cheap, and started planting.  I started a nursery that is still operating and I planted lots of fruit trees.  Fortunately, it all came together after about 8 years when I was able to stop working on the side and live off of farm production and consultations mostly. We also have a farm tour. 
What made this work so well was a combination of luck and timing as well as vision and hard work.  To find good farmland cheap you might look at Puerto Rico as a place with potential.  There needs to be an economy where locals can buy your products.  You have to have a judicial system that protects your investment.  This rules out a lot of places. Panama might be a possibility but I feel it doesn’t have the fresh fruit consumers that CR has. 
My model is to sell locally at the farmers market, fruit stand, farm sales.  This works well in Costa Rica but it’s hard to find land inexpensive here now.  A reference price for farmland in our area would be about $4000 an acre.  There’s cheaper land around but farther from areas with services and economic activity.  Actually, people are pouring in from the US and buying up places all over CR these months.
Peter

Yeah you are right about locals needing to buy the fruit, I know some good markets to move some fruit but I think it would be mainly supplemental income and not sustenance. I believe in Puerto Rico exporting the fruit to the US isnt really allowed I dont think. . I know there are pest transmission issues but it seems silly because we import fruit from other carribbean island nations to the US. I believe you are able to ship plants to the US though... which makes me think I could plant out lots of seedlings and sell them by mail to the US. Focus on a nursery instead of fruit production.

Ive never been to Costa Rica. I have a friend there. I am considering a trip soon. I should check it out before I make any judgements, as this new wave of expats buying up the land has sort of turned me off to the idea. (Woo-woo new age hippies drive me crazy). Though 4000$ per acre is still pretty cheap. Cheaper than Punta Gorda, FL still. I appreciate the insights Peter, what area are you living in? How big is your plot? how many trees can you comfortably manage by yourself and still have time to surf or hike? I thought about doing a program there, but I don't want a permaculture design certificate. But rather a more intensive fruit learning experience from people who actually do this for a living. Not to get college credit. I guess I should try to get in touch with more people and see who needs help

[Gone tropo]

Driftwood great topic i find it quite fascinating myself. I come from a family with near 100 years of sugar cane farming here in australia.  Land here is extremely expensive the prices i see mentioned here $4000 an acre is outrageously cheap.  I myself only have 2.5 acres i often wonder if someone could make a living off a block my size with fruits but i think the answer might be a min of 5 acres.  5 acres of a high value crop such as durian might be liveable.  I have a mate who has 5 acres with around 130 mangosteen trees who makes a part living off them, he is planting out durian at the moment as well.

The other important question here is how much acreage can one person manage on their own?? its one thing to have 50 acres but when it requires a whole bunch of staff to run thats a whole different ball game to someone trying to run a single man operation.  i dont know what the answer is but i know my mate needs labour during harvest time with the mangosteens and thats only 5 acres. 

Look forward to seeing some of the answers you get.   

[driftwood]

Driftwood great topic i find it quite fascinating myself. I come from a family with near 100 years of sugar cane farming here in australia.  Land here is extremely expensive the prices i see mentioned here $4000 an acre is outrageously cheap.  I myself only have 2.5 acres i often wonder if someone could make a living off a block my size with fruits but i think the answer might be a min of 5 acres.  5 acres of a high value crop such as durian might be liveable.  I have a mate who has 5 acres with around 130 mangosteen trees who makes a part living off them, he is planting out durian at the moment as well.

The other important question here is how much acreage can one person manage on their own?? its one thing to have 50 acres but when it requires a whole bunch of staff to run thats a whole different ball game to someone trying to run a single man operation.  i dont know what the answer is but i know my mate needs labour during harvest time with the mangosteens and thats only 5 acres. 

Look forward to seeing some of the answers you get.

Appreciate that man. I am with you on 4000$ per acre sounding cheap. Perspective is funny. Thing is the places where land is expensive, people also pay more for fruits

From my little experience with working the land, I know I am looking to end up with somewhere between 1-20 acres. around 1 acre of nursery and greenhouse and medicinal plants, and a couple hundred trees. Maybe some yuca fields or ginger -- Starting small obviously. 50 acres is not in my vision.  I also build houses and tiny homes so I was considering AirBNB and hospitality as well.

Soursop and sugar apple are one of the more expensive fruits here. not sure what the most profitable though. There's not a big market for durian. TBH ive never had durian as I want my first to be fresh and not store bought. Who knows, maybe I will fall in love with the durian and move to Asia

[Gone tropo]

Driftwood great topic i find it quite fascinating myself. I come from a family with near 100 years of sugar cane farming here in australia.  Land here is extremely expensive the prices i see mentioned here $4000 an acre is outrageously cheap.  I myself only have 2.5 acres i often wonder if someone could make a living off a block my size with fruits but i think the answer might be a min of 5 acres.  5 acres of a high value crop such as durian might be liveable.  I have a mate who has 5 acres with around 130 mangosteen trees who makes a part living off them, he is planting out durian at the moment as well.

The other important question here is how much acreage can one person manage on their own?? its one thing to have 50 acres but when it requires a whole bunch of staff to run thats a whole different ball game to someone trying to run a single man operation.  i dont know what the answer is but i know my mate needs labour during harvest time with the mangosteens and thats only 5 acres. 

Look forward to seeing some of the answers you get.

Appreciate that man. I am with you on 4000$ per acre sounding cheap. Perspective is funny. Thing is the places where land is expensive, people also pay more for fruits

From my little experience with working the land, I know I am looking to end up with somewhere between 1-20 acres. around 1 acre of nursery and greenhouse and medicinal plants, and a couple hundred trees. Maybe some yuca fields or ginger -- Starting small obviously. 50 acres is not in my vision.  I also build houses and tiny homes so I was considering AirBNB and hospitality as well.

Soursop and sugar apple are one of the more expensive fruits here. not sure what the most profitable though. There's not a big market for durian. TBH ive never had durian as I want my first to be fresh and not store bought. Who knows, maybe I will fall in love with the durian and move to Asia

Yep you are spot on in that people who live in the areas with high land prices are willing to pay the big prices (ie the cities).  Here in australia all the top stuff grown in my area (which is the exotic fruit mecca of australia) gets sent to the cities brisbane, sydney, melbourne etc.  There is HUGE money in durian here the people in the cities pay a mega bucks for them.  To give you an idea durian of known cultivars fetches AU$40/kg AT THE FARM (Works out at $13.45 US a POUND at the farm) so you can imagine what they pay retail down in the cities.  Mangosteens also fetch big money but not even close to durian

[brian]

I have been looking for land nearby (SE Pennsylvania) to build more greenhouses, best I have seen so far is about 15-20k/acre for flat fields 5-15acres nearby.  It seems that by far the most important factor is zoning.  Anything that could become a housing subdivision is priced far, far higher. 

[TheGivingTree]

Awesome post. My only advice would be to not wait on buying. Get your plan, figure out your budget and get it going. If not purchasing outright, owner financing is still a thing but harder to find.

Land (in So FLo) is only going to get more expensive in my opinion. Feel free to PM me if youre looking  in FL. Good luck bro!

[K-Rimes]

I've had my eyes out around Central California to find something affordable with good water, but it's a real challenge to find something that is reasonably priced, is in a quality micro climate for tropicals, and importantly has enough water to irrigate as many trees as I'd like to plant. I did look deeply into Puerto Rico and have visited the island many times, but there are water issues there sometimes there too (if using city water, which frequently doesn't work day on day off). It does rain a lot though so you'd likely not have much to worry about unless you were near Ponce, the southern side is much more arid and hot. Up above Ponce in the mountains is where they grow a lot of coffee, but it was decimated by hurricanes last I heard. The hurricanes and the severity of them increasing with global warming has turned me off of PR for now - you could invest a decade or two and then get totally wiped out.

Costa Rica is promising, and I've always had a soft spot for Brazil but the flight times that far really make it a place you can't freely go to and fro from. Costa Rica / Mexico is pretty much ideal for accessibility and pricing.

My experience tending to my garden here which is only a scant 1.2 acre is that you'd really have trouble keeping track of anything larger than 5 acres. It's not so much the trees themselves, it's irrigation and piping problems which are always breaking or getting plugged up, keeping the well running, having back up power for the well or heating needs in winter and so on. Even the best laid plans can completely crumble under an unforeseen circumstance. The ideal location, imo, is one where the plants you grow are so well suited for the climate that they don't need that much additional help - zone-pushing as a farming career sounds daunting.

[driftwood]

I have been looking for land nearby (SE Pennsylvania) to build more greenhouses, best I have seen so far is about 15-20k/acre for flat fields 5-15acres nearby.  It seems that by far the most important factor is zoning.  Anything that could become a housing subdivision is priced far, far higher.

yup rural and agriculture zoning is key especially for business and farm stand and such. My thinking is that there arent a lot of 1-20 acre plots available right now. But as more and more of these multi thousand acre old farm parcels get divided there will be more in the future. I wouldnt be interested in trying PA, I grew up in Ohio. The great lakes dump snow and there is almost 300 cloudy days a year.

I've had my eyes out around Central California to find something affordable with good water, but it's a real challenge to find something that is reasonably priced, is in a quality micro climate for tropicals, and importantly has enough water to irrigate as many trees as I'd like to plant. I did look deeply into Puerto Rico and have visited the island many times, but there are water issues there sometimes there too (if using city water, which frequently doesn't work day on day off). It does rain a lot though so you'd likely not have much to worry about unless you were near Ponce, the southern side is much more arid and hot. Up above Ponce in the mountains is where they grow a lot of coffee, but it was decimated by hurricanes last I heard. The hurricanes and the severity of them increasing with global warming has turned me off of PR for now - you could invest a decade or two and then get totally wiped out.

Costa Rica is promising, and I've always had a soft spot for Brazil but the flight times that far really make it a place you can't freely go to and fro from. Costa Rica / Mexico is pretty much ideal for accessibility and pricing.

My experience tending to my garden here which is only a scant 1.2 acre is that you'd really have trouble keeping track of anything larger than 5 acres. It's not so much the trees themselves, it's irrigation and piping problems which are always breaking or getting plugged up, keeping the well running, having back up power for the well or heating needs in winter and so on. Even the best laid plans can completely crumble under an unforeseen circumstance. The ideal location, imo, is one where the plants you grow are so well suited for the climate that they don't need that much additional help - zone-pushing as a farming career sounds daunting.

It's a good thing I have worked in irrigation and landscaping and designed large drip systems. I feel like that and my ability to take care of baby plants lends itself well to this trade. In addition, I am a graphic designer and copywriter for internet marketing, which will help drive sales. Zone pushing with fruit trees sounds horrible as, one greenhouse malfunction could lead to destruction of all the trees. (a sprinkler at night in central florida would be a little different).

If I were you I would reconsider central California. As I am sure you are aware of the horrible water politics going on in the central valley. I would rather take my chances with a hurricane, as I am pretty sure the central valley of CA might turn into a hellscape desert very soon. At least San Diego has Mt. Palomar.

Costa Rica, and Puerto Rico are high contenders. But I feel like I could make more money in florida with a nursery business (stiffer competition though)

I repaired homes in Puerto Rico the year after hurricane maria. You are right about city water, I am familiar with the micro climates of the island though and there are lots of farms who take advantage of rain and river water. I would not be relying on the island for utilities. Utuado and Las Marias are amazing places and there are some semi-abandoned coffee, cacao, plantain farms that would be amazing to bring back to life. As for the Hurricane, I know many trees were damaged but now almost 4 years later its pretty much back to Pre-Maria conditions. The problem for PR was that the infrastructure and houses were so neglected prior to the hurricane hitting. I repaired peoples roofs and some of them told me they hadnt patched or coated their roof in 20 years.

My sights on are on the tropics. At this point I won't accept anything less than subtropical. I can deal with not having soursops and durian but I need to have guava, citrus, papaya, cherimoya.

Awesome post. My only advice would be to not wait on buying. Get your plan, figure out your budget and get it going. If not purchasing outright, owner financing is still a thing but harder to find.

Land (in So FLo) is only going to get more expensive in my opinion. Feel free to PM me if youre looking  in FL. Good luck bro!

thanks man!! Where are you located? You got facebook or instagram? So far ive checked out Naples, Punta Gorda, Pine Island/Bokeelia, Homestead/Miami. Ive been a few times this year but havent seen anything I loved that wasnt ridiculously overpriced in my humble opinion.

Honestly my budget is a pretty big range. As in the US I would qualify for financing and possibly a USDA loan if the property is eligible. In Puerto Rico or Costa Rica I would need cash or funding.

In the US my budget for a property 1-10 acre with a 1 or 2 bedroom house is $500,000.

In Puerto Rico or Costa Rica I would be looking below $200,000 with a house. or Below $100,000 for just land. Ive considered doing both eventually and keeping a genetic library in a place like puerto rico and flying between FL and PR.

[Julie]

You have to have enough money to buy the land outright since there really isn’t financing for land. If you have 500k then that should be enough to buy 5 acres of land in Florida which would be like the max to handle on your own. The cost of laborers is 100/day. Do not buy land in a flood zone! If you aren’t happy with the property wait until you find the perfect one. Also if you are growing all of the food yourself are you going to just sell it wholesale or at farmers markets? There are companies who make a great deal of money buying fruit wholesale and then selling it for 2-3x the price at farmers markets and shipping to other states. It seems like the best thing to do is to sell the produce yourself. Also (just my own thought) I would start out planting trees but then you could plant vegetables/sweet potatoes/turmeric etc between the trees and those crops will be ready quickly while you wait for the trees to grow. Also in an agricultural area you will have to deal with neighbors spraying pesticides/herbicide etc

[driftwood]

You have to have enough money to buy the land outright since there really isn’t financing for land. If you have 500k then that should be enough to buy 5 acres of land in Florida which would be like the max to handle on your own. The cost of laborers is 100/day. Do not buy land in a flood zone! If you aren’t happy with the property wait until you find the perfect one. Also if you are growing all of the food yourself are you going to just sell it wholesale or at farmers markets? There are companies who make a great deal of money buying fruit wholesale and then selling it for 2-3x the price at farmers markets and shipping to other states. It seems like the best thing to do is to sell the produce yourself. Also (just my own thought) I would start out planting trees but then you could plant vegetables/sweet potatoes/turmeric etc between the trees and those crops will be ready quickly while you wait for the trees to grow. Also in an agricultural area you will have to deal with neighbors spraying pesticides/herbicide etc

great considerations. I do not have 500k on hand. If I did, I would be in Puerto Rico drinking coconuts and surfing. that would be the budget for a financed house and property combined. My cash budget is much smaller. I do not feel like buying an empty parcel currently, as I would like to work where I live.

I plan to do farmers markets, and/or start a roadside stand, sell young plants/rare seeds, as well as drop shipping and filling gaps with produce from other organic farmers. I will be planting a succession style with fast growing pioneering trees that help the soil like banana, papaya, cercropia, inga, moringa, pigeon pea, to provide an understory for baby mangos, avocados, annonas.

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor. It will suffice.

I have a pretty solid plan, and have ways to supplement my income. I just didnt really fall in love with SW Florida so not sure I want to buy a cheap plot in naples or punta gorda. I appreciate all the opinions everyone. I know it will be a long process, but I am looking forward to the journey

[fruitnut1944]

My thoughts are sell plants not fruit. Fruit is too perishable and it takes too long to come into production. I started selling plants on eBay 6 yrs ago as a hobby to cover a few expenses. By yr four I sold more than I paid for my place and 3x what my greenhouse cost. Next yr if I were younger I could net 150K but at nearly 80 am thinking about selling out. My margins are 75-80%. Sales from a 1700 sqft greenhouse are 90K. Before that fruit I sold from the same greenhouse was maybe $500 a yr.

There are house plants selling 10-20K each. That's not going to happen but there must be plants you'd find interesting that have a strong market. If possible sell online by auction and ship as widely as possible. I'm starting, growing out, selling, and shipping nearly 1000 plants a yr. A young man should do much better.

[Galatians522]

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor.
[/quote]

I don't know if this will ease your concern or not, but a conventional sugarcane farm on muck will use only 1/2 to 1/3 of the nitrogen recommended for a lettuce farm (conventional or organic) on the same soil. Actually, the nutrient load per square foot for a sugarcane field is approximately equal to a residential St. Augustine lawn. By the time you throw in the bug sprays for ants, termites, and roaches that many homeowners deem essential, the total chemical foot print for the cane field is actually lower. I would be more concerned if the property I was looking at had neighbors with lush lawns all around me. Lol!

[driftwood]

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor.

I don't know if this will ease your concern or not, but a conventional sugarcane farm on muck will use only 1/2 to 1/3 of the nitrogen recommended for a lettuce farm (conventional or organic) on the same soil. Actually, the nutrient load per square foot for a sugarcane field is approximately equal to a residential St. Augustine lawn. By the time you throw in the bug sprays for ants, termites, and roaches that many homeowners deem essential, the total chemical foot print for the cane field is actually lower. I would be more concerned if the property I was looking at had neighbors with lush lawns all around me. Lol!
[/quote]

good to know! I definitely wouldnt want to be in an HOA or by any grassholes or golf courses. However I do know large nurseries love to spray. For some reason I heard that sugarcane uses a lot of pesticide -- but I have no knowledge of sugar cane farming so dont quote that.

My thoughts are sell plants not fruit. Fruit is too perishable and it takes too long to come into production. I started selling plants on eBay 6 yrs ago as a hobby to cover a few expenses. By yr four I sold more than I paid for my place and 3x what my greenhouse cost. Next yr if I were younger I could net 150K but at nearly 80 am thinking about selling out. My margins are 75-80%. Sales from a 1700 sqft greenhouse are 90K. Before that fruit I sold from the same greenhouse was maybe $500 a yr.

There are house plants selling 10-20K each. That's not going to happen but there must be plants you'd find interesting that have a strong market. If possible sell online by auction and ship as widely as possible. I'm starting, growing out, selling, and shipping nearly 1000 plants a yr. A young man should do much better.

Good advice friend, If you weren't in Texas I would probably be interested in your business. honestly the fruit would be mostly for me, I dont desire to grow metric tons. My thinking is a small orchard would be nice to get some passive fruit and income growing while working intensely on an 1-2 acre nursery area. Those figures are good to know. I think I could manage popping enough seeds and selling a few thousand plants per year

Great discussion everybody. I really appreciate it

[Finca La Isla]

My farm, on the Caribbean near Panama, is about 45 acres.  More than half is forest and we have laid it out as an agroforestry project with cultivated areas separated by corridors of forest. I probably work about 15 acres which is almost all tree crops. 
I have 3 full time workers of which two are farm and nursery workers and the other more of a maintenance guy, carpenter, etc.  there’s a woman who helps with processing fruit and cleaning two days a week.
My farm income pays for all of these workers and I do that without exporting anything, even to the capitol.  I should say that I grow cacao and make fine chocolate as well.
Local nursery sales of ornamental plants and fruit trees, fresh fruits, and black pepper, and chocolate.
It’s a model that has worked well for me in CR.  But I must say that Costa Rica is not for everyone.  I have lived here for the better part of my adult life, and raised my son here who lives on the farm in another house.  We really identify with Costa Rica and consider it home.  That’s not easy for everyone.
A Google maps search for Finca la Isla will show our precise location.  Many forum members have visited.
Saludos, Peter

[Finca Loco]

As mentioned, buying land is cheapest option in FL right now. You'll need cash, or something as collateral. I refinanced my house, which ill rent out, and live in a trailer on the 5 acres I purchased with the refi funds in Loxahatchee FL. Ill be saving money for new home construction. Good news is that Lox is a quick growing area with massive local market for basically anything I want to grow, bad news is I have to live in a trailer and continue to grind out the desk job until I can make this full time gig.

You need to write your priorities down, rearrange them in order, start crossing them out from the bottom until you can't stand to cross anything else out, then proceed. You don't need to apprentice with someone who knows how to grow plants, you can get that info anywhere. You need to figure out your finances.

[Julie]

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor.

I don't know if this will ease your concern or not, but a conventional sugarcane farm on muck will use only 1/2 to 1/3 of the nitrogen recommended for a lettuce farm (conventional or organic) on the same soil. Actually, the nutrient load per square foot for a sugarcane field is approximately equal to a residential St. Augustine lawn. By the time you throw in the bug sprays for ants, termites, and roaches that many homeowners deem essential, the total chemical foot print for the cane field is actually lower. I would be more concerned if the property I was looking at had neighbors with lush lawns all around me. Lol!
[/quote]

I don’t specifically know much about sugarcane, but this is not really correct. Homeowners use a lot of pesticides, true, but residential pesticides are all based on pyrethrum and would be applied with a hand or backpack sprayer. In the agricultural settling they can use far more toxic pesticides (organophosphates, fumigants, etc) which are banned from home use and they can be applied by huge tractor sprayers and even crop dusters (aerial spraying) for large fields which cause more drift. I think as long as you are careful about the immediate neighbors you will be ok like you said.

[Julie]

As mentioned, buying land is cheapest option in FL right now. You'll need cash, or something as collateral. I refinanced my house, which ill rent out, and live in a trailer on the 5 acres I purchased with the refi funds in Loxahatchee FL. Ill be saving money for new home construction. Good news is that Lox is a quick growing area with massive local market for basically anything I want to grow, bad news is I have to live in a trailer and continue to grind out the desk job until I can make this full time gig.

You need to write your priorities down, rearrange them in order, start crossing them out from the bottom until you can't stand to cross anything else out, then proceed. You don't need to apprentice with someone who knows how to grow plants, you can get that info anywhere. You need to figure out your finances.

Is he correct that he could finance the purchase of an agricultural property that has a house on it? I just want to make sure they don’t split out the house and the land and then make him pay cash for the land.

Admire what you’re doing by the way. Hope you can make it a full time job soon.

[K-Rimes]

When I've looked at land loans, it's usually 50% down payment, not all cash though that'll obviously get you there. It is nigh impossible to acquire a construction loan if you have that much debt on your hands so indeed, you want to be well stocked with cash for the initial payment on any project like this. Banks are ruthless but I have not heard of them trying to divide the property into home / ag land. If there's a home on it, you can generally get a home loan which has much better terms.

[Julie]

Ok got it. I agree that home prices in Florida are extremely high right now so just the land would be a good option. It’s great to see people here earning such high incomes doing what they enjoy.

[spaugh]

Im looking to purchase an island and create my own country.  Who wants to join me?

https://www.privateislandsonline.com/

[driftwood]

My farm, on the Caribbean near Panama, is about 45 acres.  More than half is forest and we have laid it out as an agroforestry project with cultivated areas separated by corridors of forest. I probably work about 15 acres which is almost all tree crops. 
I have 3 full time workers of which two are farm and nursery workers and the other more of a maintenance guy, carpenter, etc.  there’s a woman who helps with processing fruit and cleaning two days a week.
My farm income pays for all of these workers and I do that without exporting anything, even to the capitol.  I should say that I grow cacao and make fine chocolate as well.
Local nursery sales of ornamental plants and fruit trees, fresh fruits, and black pepper, and chocolate.
It’s a model that has worked well for me in CR.  But I must say that Costa Rica is not for everyone.  I have lived here for the better part of my adult life, and raised my son here who lives on the farm in another house.  We really identify with Costa Rica and consider it home.  That’s not easy for everyone.
A Google maps search for Finca la Isla will show our precise location.  Many forum members have visited.
Saludos, Peter

good to know Peter, also great information about acreage and very cool that you dont export to San Jose. I have heard many do. I looked up your farm and your area seems cool. I will let you know if I am in the area soon.

As mentioned, buying land is cheapest option in FL right now. You'll need cash, or something as collateral. I refinanced my house, which ill rent out, and live in a trailer on the 5 acres I purchased with the refi funds in Loxahatchee FL. Ill be saving money for new home construction. Good news is that Lox is a quick growing area with massive local market for basically anything I want to grow, bad news is I have to live in a trailer and continue to grind out the desk job until I can make this full time gig.

You need to write your priorities down, rearrange them in order, start crossing them out from the bottom until you can't stand to cross anything else out, then proceed. You don't need to apprentice with someone who knows how to grow plants, you can get that info anywhere. You need to figure out your finances.

thanks for the advice friend. I have listed out several criteria for myself and also done various pros and cons lists with FL, Hawaii, California, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico. It seemed to help narrow it down as I have ruled out California and Hawaii. Florida might be next to rule out but haven't decided quite yet. I would need to visit Costa Rica in order to make a better decision on it.

Maybe I should clarify, I am not looking for someone to teach me how to pop seeds or water small plants. I have farmed and worked with plants for many years.

And you are right! There is a load of information out there! but hands on experience is better than all the books in the world. Doesn't mean I won't read. The few tropical farm visits I have been on have improved my knowledge 10 fold. I ask questions to the point where it would become annoying. I chat up every farmer I meet. Imagine what spending a year or two with a seasoned tropical farmer could do for myself. Seeing the entire cycle. More connections, more knowledge, would never hurt me. I dont see anything wrong with wanting a teacher. I have money for land and have been visiting properties since earlier this year.

One thing to take into consideration for those who say buy raw land and start farming. Is that I hear that well diggers are very booked. So are greenhouse builders. So are septic companies. Sometimes over a year into the future. Now I can build a greenhouse, a catchment system, run irrigation, and get solar. But some of these are non-negotiable like having a water source

There are distinct advantages in buying a property with a house already on it, mainly: its able to be financed by a bank so I can save more of my money for supplies like pots, irrigation and other expenses. Secondly because water, electric, and septic are already hooked up. Some people might say bah humbug at a septic and say to make a compost toilet. But it should be noted that in some county zoning requirements for building tiny homes or living in an RV on a property, a septic is non negotiable. I also live and work out of state currently. So it would be difficult to oversee contractors doing their services remotely.

When I've looked at land loans, it's usually 50% down payment, not all cash though that'll obviously get you there. It is nigh impossible to acquire a construction loan if you have that much debt on your hands so indeed, you want to be well stocked with cash for the initial payment on any project like this. Banks are ruthless but I have not heard of them trying to divide the property into home / ag land. If there's a home on it, you can generally get a home loan which has much better terms.

This is why I am interested in purchasing a property with a home already on it. That and I can potentially rent a room or give it to a friend who will do some chores. I am debt free and have a stack of cash but I fear purchasing raw land and getting a well dug could wipe out a large chunk of it.

Im looking to purchase an island and create my own country.  Who wants to join me?

https://www.privateislandsonline.com/

Spaugh, I hear you can get islands in belize for around the $300,000 range. But then who would I sell the fruit too if were all on the island? Haha.


All great points everybody. I think I am on the right path, just have to clear the vision. I will have lots of seedlings available later this year and am very excited to start my online business selling plants and seeds and continue working towards this goal.

[K-Rimes]

I think you're on the right track. A lot of people on TFF are probably thinking of similar ideas. My big goal is to find something with multiple units which helps qualify for larger loans and also has consistent income that will be helpful to keep the project alive. When I say central california, I should be more specific when I say central COAST - interior is torched, literally.

I've spoken with a lot of people about well drilling here in CA and you really should try to find somewhere with established wells. It is the life blood of your project and a couple collapsed wells or drills in the wrong places searching for it can cost you a substantial amount of cheddar that could prevent you from getting this going.

Quality soil and sun exposure, productive well, home with extra room(s) or units, garage for tools and vehicles. Those are needs for me if I were on your path. It's helpful if those are in place so you can get to work right away.

[Galatians522]

as far as pesticides are concerned: this is a great turn off for Florida for me. Between the mega monocrop ag presence and the phosphate mining and spills... It seems the state government is more interested in development and not the environment.... but environmental pesticides and chemicals are everywhere, as long as I am not directly next to a giant sugar cane field or have a mega nursery neighbor.

I don't know if this will ease your concern or not, but a conventional sugarcane farm on muck will use only 1/2 to 1/3 of the nitrogen recommended for a lettuce farm (conventional or organic) on the same soil. Actually, the nutrient load per square foot for a sugarcane field is approximately equal to a residential St. Augustine lawn. By the time you throw in the bug sprays for ants, termites, and roaches that many homeowners deem essential, the total chemical foot print for the cane field is actually lower. I would be more concerned if the property I was looking at had neighbors with lush lawns all around me. Lol!

I don’t specifically know much about sugarcane, but this is not really correct. Homeowners use a lot of pesticides, true, but residential pesticides are all based on pyrethrum and would be applied with a hand or backpack sprayer. In the agricultural settling they can use far more toxic pesticides (organophosphates, fumigants, etc) which are banned from home use and they can be applied by huge tractor sprayers and even crop dusters (aerial spraying) for large fields which cause more drift. I think as long as you are careful about the immediate neighbors you will be ok like you said.
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You make a good point about the potential for drift that I had not considered. That would be a game changer if you were adjacent to an operation that had not established good buffers and spray protocall. I would like, with your permission, to present some of the reasoning behind my statement above. My goal is not to change your mind or what you think, but to express that there is logic and direct observation/research behind what I said.

Air blast sprayers definitely create much smaller droplets that carry further. However, it is the smaller droplets that enable them to use less active ingredient per acre then the same chemical applied with a pump sprayer (which has variable pressure and often a poorly adjusted nozzle). When using a pump sprayer, many people also will mix the solution a little strong and then over apply the mixed solution (using everything in the sprayer) because there is no other way to get rid of the stuff. Interestingly enough, I am told that pyrethrins are the most common pesticide used in our local citrus groves (I think this is true for other Ag as well). Also, while it may not be the most popular homeowner pesticide, Malathion (an organophosphate) is currently available at many Home Depots for homeowner use.

Fumagants are rairly used in agriculture these days from what I have observed. When they are used, they are sprayed directly on the soil and covered immediately with an impermiable barrier for a specified amount of time. I am fairly certain that aerial application would not be allowed. The one area where strong fumigants are still in common use is the pest control industry. Virtually every house in the state has been treated with fumigants under the slab that will last in the soil for 10 years or more!

I won't hijack the thread any longer.