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Messages - mar3

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Earliest ripening citrus
« on: October 10, 2023, 11:56:52 AM »
Here's the ripening order for such Satsumas as I currently grow. All require winter protection:
LA Early and Early St. Anne: Late October onward. They are a bit insipid, but as good as many store fruit.
Miho: Early-mid November onwards. Also a bit bland, but quite sweet.
Okitsus: Mid-late November onward. Excellent taste
Xie Shan: Early-mid December onward. Excellent flavor, a bit acid.

I just wanted to add that in many places where Early St. Ann grows, peak ripeness occurs in early to mid September, after which juice percent falls below 40%. The original Bourgeois paper recommended, for Gulf Coast states, picking between September 7th to October 14 (same with LA Early). The color of the fruit at peak ripeness will likely be light green, slightly before color break.

2
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Best tasting italian lemon ?
« on: May 04, 2023, 04:30:25 PM »
Somewhat relevant: these researchers surveyed hobbyist about high-demand varieties not found in the CCPP budwood program. (They want to reduce the chances that a hobbyist brings in a tree with HLB from out of state.) Here's what they said about Feminello:

Quote
Feminello Sfusato (Figure 4) is a major lemon variety in
Italy. Its juice is used in Italian cuisine and its skin is used to make the liqueur limoncello. Feminello Sfusato was a very common survey response and was one of the most requested varieties. Some people requested it as ‘Sfusato Amalfitano’ or ‘Sorrento lemon.’ People on internet forums suggested that they would be willing to smuggle or engage in other reckless behavior to acquire it.

3
Generally you can harvest Early St. Anne from September to mid October, Miho and Brown Select from October to November, and Owari from late November/December to first freeze.

4
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Dekopon/Sumo/Shiranui
« on: January 02, 2023, 05:17:42 PM »
Sorry, it was NHK. "Begin Japanology: Satsuma Mandarins". https://youtu.be/-tQP6jJX-oo

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Citrus General Discussion / Re: Dekopon/Sumo/Shiranui
« on: January 02, 2023, 02:50:32 PM »
There are a few things I find curious about Dekopon.

  • In that (BBC?) documentary of satsuma orchards in Japan, one of those interviewed mentioned having inconsistent flavor with Dekopon. He said they reviewed their log and determined that heavier rains were beneficial, contrary to conventional wisdom.
  • The report of how they store them in a temperature controlled room to improve the flavor. I was under the impression that citrus doesn't ripen after being picked.
  • People have reported getting some bud source that have fruit with the neck, and some without the neck.

6
The other candidate that would've been readily available at that location two decades ago would be Brown Select. But you said it ripened in January, so it was likely Owari.

You've mentioned having room for more. I'd try to spread out the harvest periods with something like Miho and Early St. Anne.

7
Citrus General Discussion / Re: At my wits end with these two citrus trees
« on: December 28, 2022, 07:51:44 AM »
Quote
I wonder if you grafted a resistant plant onto an infected one of it might pass on immunity.

They're experimenting with this idea:
https://citrusresearch.org/research-projects/development-of-hlb-resistance-through-inarching-novel-disease-tolerant-hybrids-and-through-breeding

Quote
Composite grafted plants inarched with ‘Eremolemon,’ ‘Australian Finger lime’ and ‘Large leaf Australian wild lime’ developed HLB symptoms indicating that these HLB-resistant or tolerant accessions did not impart this trait to the grafted plant. However, ‘Orange jasmine’ used as an inarch did offer protection against CLas if the inarched stem was securely attached to the grafted plant. Out of 22 plants inarched with ‘Orange jasmine,’ 20 showed low titers of CLas (Ct 35-38) and did not develop symptoms when the inarch was intact.

Due to the difference in the growth rates of citrus and ‘Orange jasmine,’ the inarch was dislodged after a few months. We have modified the technique and are continuing experiments to confirm the ability of ‘Orange jasmine’ to impart disease tolerance. Preliminary results indicate that HLB-resistant ‘Orange jasmine’ can impart tolerance to scions grafted on ‘Kuhaske’ rootstock.




8
Citrus General Discussion / Re: At my wits end with these two citrus trees
« on: December 27, 2022, 02:11:13 PM »
You could be right, and it'd probably be worth sending off a sample for verification. But I don't see the trademark asymmetry. Or, at least it's difficult to tell from the pictures. Here's an image taken from one of the University of Florida's sites on HLB:


Quote
Figure 13.  Comparison of citrus greening (top) (blotchy mottle pattern) with nutrient deficiency (bottom). If the pattern inside of the circles does not match, it is possibly greening. If the pattern inside of the circles matches, it is possibly nutrient deficiency.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/PP326


9
Citrus General Discussion / Re: At my wits end with these two citrus trees
« on: December 27, 2022, 01:42:40 PM »
The chlorosis looks symmetrical, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on greening. Looks most like either manganese or zinc deficiency. Manganese deficiency shows up more in winter, so if you're in the northern hemisphere, maybe that's a good guess. The more yellowish leaves might indicate lacking of nitrogen or sulfur.

I'd recommend finding a micronutrient mix with these particular elements and doing a fortnightly foliar spray to see if things improve. Definitely check your soil pH, and lime if needed. Consider a soil test with a micronutrient check as well. I'd recommend removing the grass and mulching to at least the drip line so that they no longer need to compete with the lawn.

10
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Foliar Chlorosis?
« on: May 19, 2022, 10:29:10 AM »
I like how mulching lowers the risk of mower and weed eater damage. The guidelines I've followed are:
  • An area of weedless soil around the root collar. This prevents the mulch from keeping the root collar and trunk wet. In areas where frosts can happen, it allows the ground to absorb more warmth during the day.
  • An area of mulch to around the drip line.

From the University of Minnesota:
Quote
When trees and shrubs are planted into turf, competition for nutrients, water, and space occurs below ground between turf roots and woody plant roots. Turf wins because its dense fibrous root system prevents woody plants from producing water- and nutrient-absorbing roots in the top few inches of soil. As a result, woody plant establishment and growth is slower in turf areas than in mulched or bare soil areas.

The paper "Orchard soil management trials. 1. Effect of a weed-free or straw mulched strip on the growth and yield of young fruit trees" found evidence in support for mulching young fruit trees. Although they only tested it against herbicide controlled weedless soil, not grass.

11
Citrus General Discussion / Analyzing and comparing satsuma sweetness
« on: March 26, 2022, 06:52:39 PM »
The University of California Riverside maintains records of various features such as brix and acidity for a number of satsuma varieties. This is a great resource, and they've made freely available online. I'm sure most of you folks are already aware of it. I was curious about the sweetness of different varieties of satsumas, so I used it to compare listed varieties with trees over around 4 or 5 years old.

The ratio:  soluble solids concentration (SSC) / total acid (TA) is the most common formula that I've seen used, and some states that have a satsuma industry use it to grade their product quality. At least one study has shown that an alternate method called "BrimA" better predicted how much consumers would like a fruit. You calculate BrimA by: SSC - k * TA Here, "k" is some coefficient used to weigh acidity more than SSC, since the idea is that acidity will have a greater impact on flavor. To me, subtracting weighted acidity from SSC makes sense for satsumas. For example, if you have a very low acid satsuma that is not very sweet, it can still score relatively well with SSC / TA (e.g. when it has an TA of ~0.5). But some might say it lacks richness and has a watered down flavor. But by instead using subtraction, you must have a high SSC in order to get a high brimA. If the SSC is high enough, and even if you have acidity, you can still beat out lower acid fruits (getting a sweet + tart flavor). This article mentions California switching to this method in 2012 for grading navals. For this post, I used brimA with a k-value of 3.

UCR's entries have info such as dates, SSC, TA, exterior color, and % juice. Different varieties ripen at different times. I wanted a more objective way to find a "ripe enough" date than something like taking an average of when they happened to pick fruit. I've noticed that many varieties will decline in juiciness as time goes on and that UCR tends to stop picking them when values fell below 40%, roughly. My guess is that after this point, the fruit is perceived to be poorer quality and "dry," despite the fact that sweetness continues to increase and acidity decrease. I did a linear regression on date and juice % and solved for the latest date at which juiciness was still at least above 40%. A couple of varieties never really went above that point, and so I excluded them. A few high quality, late ripening varieties never really fell below 40%, so for those I used the last harvest date in the dataset. These ripeness dates are mostly from Riverside CA. Disclaimer: I'm just guessing that 40% is a good value to use here and don't have any actual firsthand knowledge of it. Please let me know if this needs changing.

I then did a linear regression for brimA against date, as well as for exterior color. I solved for those variables on the ripeness date at which juiciness is probably above 40%. I believe this is a more robust way to compare varieties than simply finding averages, since there's a good deal of variation between fruit. The regression takes all the information and gives a good estimate of what you're likely to see on a given date. I've seen it done on various papers that study fruit quality against other variables.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a color chart reference on the UCR's website. I think it's a safe bet that probably 0 = green, 10+ = red/orange, and yellow is in the middle somewhere. I've provided this color information since not all varieties have a ripe-looking color at the time that they reach the minimum juiciness threshold.

Note: this only tries to find "sweetness." Taste is subjective, and obviously some people prefer milder satsumas, some more tart, etc. Also, there are many other important features when choosing a tree, such as yield, susceptibility to disease, cold-hardiness, etc. That said, here are the results:
Code: [Select]
BrimA Date Color Variety
(k=3) cutoff   at
cutoff

11.26 December 13 7.56 Okitsu Wase
10.05 December 13 9.23 Frost Owari (AKA "Owari")
9.85 December 13 11.79 Clausellina
9.22 November 27 9.95 Lange #3
9.12 November 14 8.21 Kuno Wase
8.94 November 17 8.83 Miho Wase
8.68 November 17 8.76 Miyagawa
8.39 November 27 9.21 Lange #2
8.25 November 18 6.27 Dart North
8.21 November 17 5.80 Aoshima
7.90 November 10 6.95 China S-9
7.89 November 17 7.42 Xie Shan
7.80 November 18 4.94 Road 164 Satsuma
7.78 November 18 5.50 Dart South
7.65 November 08 7.27 Armstrong
7.63 November 18 5.80 Lange #1
7.49 November 17 6.20 China S-2
7.46 November 17 6.63 Silverhill
7.45 November 17 5.72 Iveriya
7.29 November 12 4.32 Agudzera
7.16 November 17 5.32 China S-7
7.15 November 17 4.90 China S-6
7.10 November 18 6.72 Mc Ewen
7.06 November 10 4.90 Dungan
6.57 November 10 7.34 China S-1
6.24 November 10 7.46 China S-11
6.02 November 10 4.30 China S-3
5.95 October 26 5.56 China S-5
5.83 November 18 6.27 China S-15
5.24 October 07 4.40 China 6-22
4.92 October 16 5.21 China S-18
4.21 September 27 3.76 China S-20
3.89 October 18 4.18 China S-12

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